bhg469
Well-Known Member
75% of the guests are drones. It's not nice to talk about their main demographic like that.
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The Spirited Back Nine ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But California municipalities along the HSR route have already spent big sums getting ready for it, even though I don't think those trains will ever run.
A few weeks ago, Anaheim opened a giant new train station serving Metrolink (commuter rail), Amtrak and Greyhound and local buses. The city wants to build a streetcar from this new station to Disneyland and the Anaheim Convention Center a mile west down Katella Avenue.
Interestingly, Disney is helping fund and plan for the Anaheim streetcar, unlike the icy reception such transit plans have received from Disney execs in Orlando. Funny how that works, isn't it?
But it's a train station designed for traffic loads ten times larger than currently exist.
It's a massive and sprawling station complex that will over-serve the existing Metrolink commuter trains and an occasional Amtrak Surfliner train.
The new station complex will cost $5.4 Million per year for Anaheim to operate and maintain, but they currently are only getting $500,000 annually from existing lease money from Amtrak, Metrolink, Greyhound, and a small snack store. (There is an additional 50,000 square feet of unused restaurant and retail space inside, plus additional vacant ticketing and office space for future tenants) YIKES!
Although it's designed and built for HSR trains that will likely never arrive, and least it looks pretty at night.
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Agreed. But California municipalities along the HSR route have already spent big sums getting ready for it, even though I don't think those trains will ever run.
A few weeks ago, Anaheim opened a giant new train station serving Metrolink (commuter rail), Amtrak and Greyhound and local buses. The city wants to build a streetcar from this new station to Disneyland and the Anaheim Convention Center a mile west down Katella Avenue.
Interestingly, Disney is helping fund and plan for the Anaheim streetcar, unlike the icy reception such transit plans have received from Disney execs in Orlando. Funny how that works, isn't it?
But it's a train station designed for traffic loads ten times larger than currently exist.
It's a massive and sprawling station complex that will over-serve the existing Metrolink commuter trains and an occasional Amtrak Surfliner train.
The new station complex will cost $5.4 Million per year for Anaheim to operate and maintain, but they currently are only getting $500,000 annually from existing lease money from Amtrak, Metrolink, Greyhound, and a small snack store. (There is an additional 50,000 square feet of unused restaurant and retail space inside, plus additional vacant ticketing and office space for future tenants) YIKES!
Although it's designed and built for HSR trains that will likely never arrive, and least it looks pretty at night.
As I stated before I don't expect the CA HSR to ever get built. However with good connections to local transit I expect both Amtrak and Metrolink to have traffic increases in Anaheim, It's why South Station in Boston and Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station in NYC work. You get off the long distance train amd walk to local transit.
Makes me think of the HGTV Dream Home Winners - almost all of them have sold the homes because they couldn't afford the related expenses - be it taxes, upkeep, relocation, etc. Or, Darby O'Gill, if you want a Disney reference. When asked if he would wish for "a fine house" he replied, "And how would I be paying for the maids and such to keep up such a fine place?" or something similar.
Exactly. It won't work without local transportation, and THAT would be on the backs of the locals. I know our local public transportation is under utilized, and runs in the red. It would cost even more to make it practical. They just eliminated the bus stop that might have made it practical for people in my immediate area - if they worked in the heart of downtown, or were willing to commute for an hour or more (and change buses) to get someplace they could drive to in less than 20 minutes.
Driving would have to become more intolerable for the majority of people than using public transportation, and that is many years away in most areas. Especially areas that had their biggest growth after the 1950s, when suburbia bloomed.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
It was worse than that; gas would need to be $24.00 per gallon to meet the same cost for a family of four to travel the 125 miles round trip from downtown Tampa to WDW. Assuming the family was driving an older Impala getting 25 MPG on the highway.
If the family has a newer sedan that gets 40 MPG highway, gas would need to be $39.00 per gallon to match the cost of train tickets.
And that's assuming the HSR train tickets would have actually "cost as low as $30" round trip that Governor Scott said they would back in 2011. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...idership-study-high-speed-train-train-systems Those very cheap HSR fares were always highly unlikely, but made for good media sound bites from a politician.
A round trip Tampa-Orlando coach ticket on Amtrak's Silver Star is $54.00, using legacy rails and equipment and labor that already receive Billions of dollars each year in Federal and State operating subsidies to Amtrak.
At the current Amtrak pricing of $54.00 round trip, gas would need to be $43.00 per gallon to match the cost of the train for our family at 25 MPG. Or $71.00 per gallon if they have a newer car that gets 40 MPG highway.
And that's what gas will need to cost to simply meet the cost of train tickets, not make it meaningfully cheaper than the train to make up for the hassle and cost of getting to/from the station on both ends of the trip.
Current gas prices in Orlando are averaging $2.09 per gallon (tourist area). http://www.orlandogasprices.com/
Current gas prices in Tampa are averaging $1.95 per gallon. http://www.tampagasprices.com/
Current daily parking fee for WDW theme parks is $17.00.
It currently costs a family of four in a 25 MPG car $27.00 to drive round trip Tampa-WDW including parking fee.
And it's fun to be free!
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As I mentioned, it would only be worth it if the drive itself (or owning a car) was so horrible or expensive that it was worth paying a premium to avoid it - and that isn't the case - yet. And may never be the case. It is impossible to predict. But it is possible to predict that any sort of rail would have yearly costs that will exceed the revenue generated.
DisneyGentleman
Well-Known Member
A friendly correction:
Momentum = mass x velocity
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared
It's way too early on a Sunday morning for me to even think of crunching numbers or trying to revisit things like momentum or kinetics. I do appreciate the info and you math savvy posters putting it together though
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
A friendly correction:
Momentum = mass x velocity
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared
You are SO correct - not enough coffee!!!!!!
fillerup
Well-Known Member
Just curious. What "such transit plans", as in streetcar or the like, have ever been proposed in and around the greater Orlando/Disney area? And what is the "icy reception" of which you speak?
GrammieBee
Well-Known Member
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Several light rail and heavy rail systems had been talked about in Orlando metro for over a decade. But Disney would only support any rail plan that avoided I-Drive, competing theme parks, and the Convention Center, and insisted any rail project had to offer direct service from the airport to WDW without intermediate stops. That Disney demand killed any ability to get the various projects off the ground because a metro area rail system must serve a variety of housing and employment centers, not just be an express train from the airport to WDW paid for by taxpayers.
A typical newspaper article from the 2000's... http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003-10-27/news/0310270326_1_route-bee-line-Disney
With typical blunt "Our Way or the Highway" statements about local politicians from Disney execs of that era....
"Disney refuses to cooperate with a Bee Line train... "I'd be terribly surprised if any of the people on that authority would be willing to roll the dice," said Tom Lewis Jr., Disney vice president for transportation development."
Things were icy. And the plans went nowhere. And then Disney invented Magical Express.
SunRail finally got built a decade later, but it is a heavy rail commuter line from the northern suburbs to downtown. It's only 30 miles long and should have been Light Rail for ease of long term operation, but it was cheaper to use existing heavy rail tracks and so they are running heavy trains on old freight track for short stop/go distances. But at least it's a train carrying a whopping 3,000 riders per day.
SunRail doesn't serve the airport and gets nowhere near any theme parks or tourist centers, thus staying off Disney's radar.
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ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Well you can ask Jason on this but the people who are in charge of the transportation authorities down here are some of the most corrupt human beings on the planet.
In short… The state of Florida and orange county just wants Disney's money. They are not overly interested in Disney's views of a cohesive transportation plan for the area. Not after that high-speed rail initiative got killed by Rick Scott, which would've had a high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa with a stop at Orlando international and a stop at Disney World.
Quinnmac000
Well-Known Member
The construction of HSR was never really about how feasible it is but its a fast way to make jobs in the local area and temporary spur states economy. Nothing more nothing less.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Indeed he is.
However the observation that Disney's prime demographic is made up of very basic people… That holds true.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
It may never meet expectations, but it is nice to see a community investing in its future. So many transit operations are killed because they are trying to meet last decade's needs. They're so pent in that the cost of even a slight expansion is astronomical.Agreed. But California municipalities along the HSR route have already spent big sums getting ready for it, even though I don't think those trains will ever run.
A few weeks ago, Anaheim opened a giant new train station serving Metrolink (commuter rail), Amtrak and Greyhound and local buses. The city wants to build a streetcar from this new station to Disneyland and the Anaheim Convention Center a mile west down Katella Avenue.
Interestingly, Disney is helping fund and plan for the Anaheim streetcar, unlike the icy reception such transit plans have received from Disney execs in Orlando. Funny how that works, isn't it?
But it's a train station designed for traffic loads ten times larger than currently exist.
It's a massive and sprawling station complex that will over-serve the existing Metrolink commuter trains and an occasional Amtrak Surfliner train.
The new station complex will cost $5.4 Million per year for Anaheim to operate and maintain, but they currently are only getting $500,000 annually from existing lease money from Amtrak, Metrolink, Greyhound, and a small snack store. (There is an additional 50,000 square feet of unused restaurant and retail space inside, plus additional vacant ticketing and office space for future tenants) YIKES!
Although it's designed and built for HSR trains that will likely never arrive, and least it looks pretty at night.
The one that still baffles me the most is the Atlanta BeltLine. A park that will encircle the city core along old railroad rights of way. Future plans include light rail but to get things ready now they're demolishing all of the existing tracks that easily could have carried standard gauge light rail.
71jason
Well-Known Member
I think out-of-towners don't realize Magic Express was almost as much a political calculation as a business one. Universal and Harris Rosen/I-Drive/OCCC had made it clear they were willing to do whatever to get light rail from the airport, and WDW was being made out (fairly) as the only roadblock. When it was announced, the main number toted was the number of cars that would be taken off the the Beachline and I-4, not guest satisfaction.
Your sarcasm is duly noted.
But of course, trains work best for government workers and students. Other than the hospital, which seems to be the main client base for the train, not enough of those downtown to be sustainable.