The Spirited Back Nine ...

[EscapetoWDW]

I just returned form a week long trip to Orlando (for the first time in our last 4 trips, we skipped Uni parks, we were with family that wanted to do all for Disney parks). This was my families first time using the new Disney Experience and Fast Pass Plus... We stay off property (I have timeshare), and not on property.

I gotta tell you, I am probably best labeled a pixie duster, I love the place, for various reasons... But I had such a mediocre experience, it has me rethinking our annual trips. Or at best coming down and and only spending one day at MK and then spending the rest of the week elsewhere. We had a such a good time at our hotel (MARRIOTT HARBOR LAKE) that we cut days short to get back there.

First, the cast members at the parks were just "off". Now I know this is hit or miss, not all cast members, but there were more grumpy and just nasty cast members than I have ever encountered. In fact, I heard on three occasions, cast members swearing at each other. Once while walking into Star Tours, as we passed I heard three cast members on the side of the stage swearing like truck drivers, as I looked over my shoulder at them they just cackled and kept it up...

Second, Fast Pass is killing the experience. I was constantly looking at my phone to make sure we were in the right area of the park or that we would not miss our tie slot. It made the whole day just stressful, not fun. And rides like Pirates, why is there a fast pass? The lines are just inflated now. It's foolish.

Third, DAK and HS are at best 1/2 day parks that are full of filler and are just begging to be "fixed". There is not enough content to justify a $100 park admission.

I post this here, and not in the trip reports forum more because, I feel that I may have flipped a bit. This trip may have pushed me a bit AWAY from the pixie dust covered smiles and into the middle ground of, "I CAN SPEND MY MONEY ELSEWHERE..."

As we drove back the the airport, my wife and I both said, "It was a good time, we had fun, the kids had fun, but we are not going to rush back to WDW... not for at least 3-4 years."

We've begun thinking about a cruise, not a Disney cruise either.

Makes me sad, honestly. Feels like I've grown up, or someone told me the truth about Santa.

This is how we felt after our August trip. My daughter and I visited WDW once a year for 10 years and planning our vacation was a highlight (Magic Bands and FP+ actually do work for us, we aren't "ride warriors" and I enjoy the planning - it extends the Disney magic). But everything felt "off" this time - nothing bad but I think the pixie dust is wearing off. The most memorable moment was evacuating off Pirates.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Can someone explain that phenomenon to me? How are those two thoughts compatible? If Disney is terribly over priced and it takes such a larger part of ones paycheck to actually go there, how is it possible that there are more people there then ever before. It just doesn't make sense, economics wise.

Three phenomenon are at work.

The first is economics. After the last recession, belts tightened and families delayed expensive vacations. This was reflected in WDW's attendance, which was flat or declining from 2008 to 2010. WDW's attendance has surged upward since then.

The second is advertising. Unlike those of us who constantly monitor what's happening at WDW, most WDW vacationers simply don't pay attention. They are caught up in the advertising hype.

The third is nostalgia. Many people go years between WDW visits. They remember the great time they had at WDW before the recession when WDW attendance was 10% lower and when a 7-day MYW ticket cost 48% less.

I've had several associates take WDW vacations in the last 1-2 years. They tell me they had fun, so I ask them, when is their next trip. Their answers are nearly always the same: "No time soon. It costs too much and it's too crowded."

Disney needs to take steps to address these concerns. I'm pretty sure that even higher prices and more crowding is not the solution.

Disney has showed signs that they are aware of this. Price increases slowed in 2014, while Disney is investing in physical modifications to address the worst bottlenecks.

However, today's WDW suffers from high prices and overcrowding. Again, Disney does seem to be aware of this and does seem to be taking steps to address this but, right now, places like the Magic Kingdom have become almost unpleasant to visit, which could be very bad for long-term business.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Not that any of us can comprehend why some people behave poorly, but I wonder if you think that the upcoming holidays might add an additional layer of stress upon some park-goers? Just a thought, but I wonder if some families try to "do it all" with already busy work and school schedules, a December vacation to WDW, and then making sure they have enough money left over to please everyone on their holiday, or Christmas, shopping list.

Hence, if something doesn't go perfectly, while they're vacationing at WDW, they begin to unravel at the seams. Perhaps this subliminal, beneath-the-surface, stressor might be contributing to some of the normally sane people, who are now acting irrationally.

You make an interesting observation.

It wasn't that long ago that the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas were among WDW's least crowded. Even Thanksgiving used to be not that bad.

Now that crowds are up from Thanksgiving all the way to Christmas, I can imagine the extra crowds and cost piled on top of the usual holiday stress are adding to people's grumpiness.

 

[Kman101]

In comparing my day trips, my mom went with me to the Magic Kingdom in May to use up a day she had left on a ticket. She hadn't been to that park in I don't know how long (her last park was Hollywood Studios in 2008). She was shocked by the crowds (probably overwhelmed), the amount of strollers (it really is a bit much) and while she never complained and enjoyed the time there at the end of the day, I saw through her how the reaction is ... not good. I'm used to dodging people, the strollers, etc. but to almost a first time guest, or an every couple of years guest, I saw how overwhelming it could be and the reaction was "I don't need to go back there anytime soon". She prefers the pace of Epcot, Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom. I just have to wonder how many guests truly come away feeling that way. That's not good. Not that in the long run the Magic Kingdom is hurting for attendance of course, but they need to do something about this. They seem to be with the hub expansion and with things happening at the other parks and Downtown Disney changes, but it was definitely eye opening to me, who's more or less kept up with what's going on in the parks, even if I may not have sat foot in them for a couple of years. And on that note, I imagine if I dragged her there this last week, she'd come away with a totally different reaction to the Magic Kingdom.

 

[Nemo14]

Three phenomenon are at work.

The first is economics. After the last recession, belts tightened and families delayed expensive vacations. This was reflected in WDW's attendance, which was flat or declining from 2008 to 2010. WDW's attendance has surged upward since then.

The second is advertising. Unlike those of us who constantly monitor what's happening at WDW, most WDW vacationers simply don't pay attention. They are caught up in the advertising hype.

The third is nostalgia. Many people go years between WDW visits. They remember the great time they had at WDW before the recession when WDW attendance was 10% lower and when a 7-day MYW ticket cost 48% less.

I've had numerous associates take WDW vacations in the last 1-2 years. They tell me they had fun, so I ask them, when is their next trip. Their answers are nearly always the same: "No time soon. It costs too much and it's too crowded."

Disney needs to take steps to address these concerns. I'm pretty sure that even higher prices and more crowding is not the solution.

Disney has showed signs that they are aware of this. Price increases slowed in 2014, while Disney is investing in physical modifications to address the worse bottlenecks.

However, today's WDW suffers from high prices and overcrowding. Again, Disney does seem to be aware of this and does seem to be taking steps to address this but, right now, places like the Magic Kingdom have become almost unpleasant to visit, which could be very bad for long-term business.

I think another factor that can account for the increase in attendance is Disney's efforts to heavily market to visitors from foreign countries to the point where, like here, a Disney World vacation has seemingly become a rite of passage for many families who never would have considered it 20 years ago.

 

[Mike S]

You're missing the point.

Today's WDW is bursting at the seams.

New lands in existing parks are needed but they are going to attract additional Guests while adding only limited capacity.

I've looked at historical data and believe that by the middle of next decade, operationally and financially, WDW will need a 5th Gate.

Building a theme park takes time, especially for Disney.

Therefore, even as they move forward with the current expansions, they need to earnestly start planning for WDW's next theme park.

It's not a matter of "fix the current theme parks" or "build a 5th theme park".

By 2025, both will be needed.

If you haven't done so, please read my post on this link explaining the financial justification for a 5th theme park.

You do make good points in that post but I don't think a fifth gate is needed so soon. DHS, DAK, and Epcot (to a lesser extent) need more attractions and Magic Kingdom still needs more capacity. A fifth gate will probably be needed some time in the future but 2025 seems a little too soon. All 4 parks need more before a fifth gate happens. I would also hate to see a new park open with as little to do as DHS and DAK currently. The whole park would seem like a waste when all that money could've been used to expand the current parks.

 

[PirateFrank]

So I ducked into Magic Kingdom today for an hour… Was nowhere near as bad as I was expecting given this mornings tapings…

My overall observation? The guests are just mean. They are mean to the cast, they are mean to each other, they are mean to other guests.

Which makes me wonder… What the hell is wrong with you people?

Is this observation specific about Pop Warner? Or in general? If it's the latter, I am convinced that the more expensive WDW gets, the nastier its guests will be -- because the more people spend on the same product, the more demanding the customers will be to ensure that the product is providing a greater value in line with the increase in price. At some point, guests will feel they are getting ripped off and they will take what they feel is an entitlement equal to the difference in value between what they are paying and what they are getting. I've seen a general increase of the following over the past few years: Cutting lines in attractions, buying GAC/GAS access from enterprising card holders, pushing kids/families out of the way to ensure prime parade/fireworks locations, unrealistic demands on cast members, outright theft of merchandise, etc, etc.

Not justifying the above listed behavior, but I remain convinced that the sharp decrease in guest civility has been practically invited by WDW. When you demand more money from the guest without a corresponding increase in value that is disproportionate to the inflation rate -- you get push back. We've already seen that despite these conditions, a large percentage of guests are unwilling to stop buying the product -- but they are lashing out in other ways.

Post-edit : It appears @ParentsOf4 has, as usual, nailed this thought home with expertise and ease....but I guess another opinion doesn't hurt.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

You do make good points in that post but I don't think a fifth gate is needed so soon. DHS, DAK, and Epcot (to a lesser extent) need more attractions and Magic Kingdom still needs more capacity. A fifth gate will probably be needed some time in the future but 2025 seems a little too soon. All 4 parks need more before a fifth gate happens. I would also hate to see a new park open with as little to do as DHS and DAK currently. The whole park would seem like a waste when all that money could've been used to expand the current parks.

We agree that international visitors have been picking up the slack at WDW in terms of revenue per guest and attendance. The parks are more crowded than ever which are the consequences from managements decision to prioritize short term profitability since 9/11. The recession and the greater trend of Income Inequality in the United States have worked in tangent to lower domestic guest growth, in terms of attendence and hotel occupancy. That begs the question, what would the crowds at WDW look like if the economy, for the vast majority of Americans not one percenters or our beloved faux one percenter, was better, WDW would be even more crowded!

The Magic Kingdom has had very few net gains in capacity since the opening of Splash Mountain, MK's last E Ticket, twenty two years ago. (There's no need to go over the capacity problems DHS and DAK have as half day parks) Throughout the late 90s and 00s, management started making certain dining facilities and a few unlucky attractions "seasonal" to save money. But you could only do that with late 90s and 00s crowds. New Fantasyland, as much as TDO wants everyone to believe it added lots of capacity, it mostly restored dining and attraction capacity lost from shuttering dining locations like the TL Terrace and 20K and rearranged M&Gs. We like to say here that Disney "grabs pennies while dollars fly over head", but with the capacity problem they should be worried about being trampled to death!

 

[PhotoDave219]

Is this observation specific about Pop Warner? Or in general? If it's the latter, I am convinced that the more expensive WDW gets, the nastier its guests will be -- because the more people spend on the same product, the more demanding the customers will be to ensure that the product is providing a greater value in line with the increase in price. At some point, guests will feel they are getting ripped off and they will take what they feel is an entitlement equal to the difference in value between what they are paying and what they are getting. I've seen a general increase of the following over the past few years: Cutting lines in attractions, buying GAC/GAS access from enterprising card holders, pushing kids/families out of the way to ensure prime parade/fireworks locations, unrealistic demands on cast members, outright theft of merchandise, etc, etc.

Not justifying the above listed behavior, but I remain convinced that the sharp decrease in guest civility has been practically invited by WDW. When you demand more money from the guest without a corresponding increase in value that is disproportionate to the inflation rate -- you get push back. We've already seen that despite these conditions, a large percentage of guests are unwilling to stop buying the product -- but they are lashing out in other ways.

Post-edit : It appears @ParentsOf4 has, as usual, nailed this thought home with expertise and ease....but I guess another opinion doesn't hurt.

Just in general, I avoided the pop warner folks the way I avoid cheerleaders, argentinian tour groups and other large groups of young people.

And youre right on the money

 

[PhotoDave219]

George Jefferson?

That's why MK is my least favorite park at WDW. The vibe is all wrong. Even the nieces and nephews would rather stay at DHS and EPCOT.

No, i had it wrong: Governor William J. LePetomane.

 

[Travel Junkie]

You're missing the point.

Today's WDW is bursting at the seams.

New lands in existing parks are needed but they are going to attract additional Guests while adding only limited capacity.

I've looked at historical data and believe that by the middle of next decade, operationally and financially, WDW will need a 5th Gate.

Building a theme park takes time, especially for Disney.

Therefore, even as they move forward with the current expansions, they need to earnestly start planning for WDW's next theme park.

It's not a matter of "fix the current theme parks" or "build a 5th theme park".

By 2025, both will be needed.

If you haven't done so, please read my post on this link explaining the financial justification for a 5th theme park.

Personally I believe they can add the capacity needed at the existing parks. The problem is that the last decade plus they have been decreasing capacity while crowds have been increasing. When new attractions are added they are replacing existing ones or other attractions/shows are cut. To any DLR or TDR visitor the amount of dead space at WDW parks is astounding. To anyone who thinks MK is maxed out, take a look at DLR.

The current rumored expansions are not enough as you layout to deal with current and future visitor numbers, but there is more than enough room to add capacity at the current parks. TDO would simply have to increase operating costs, which is something they have been unwilling to do.

 

[Kman101]

Exactly. Instead of replacing Toad with Pooh, and then giving us a kids play area ten years later where the subs were, Pooh could have gone there (I'd rather have the subs but that's a whole other topic) and they STILL could have expanded Fantasyland with Little Mermaid and the Dwarfs Mine Train. And Snow White could have been rethemed to another dark ride (um, hello Alice ... but considering it's next to Village Haus, hello Pinocchio). But nope.

We'd have two dark rides that we no longer have (Toad and re-themed Snow), plus a family coaster (Mine Train with more dark ride scenes), and TWO new dark rides (Mermaid and Pooh), PLUS a restaurant (Be Our Guest) and they could have still done Belle's little meet and greet plus a Princess meet. Again ... nope.

Not to mention how Tortuga Tavern, Adventureland Veranda, Tomorrowland Terrace and Diamond Horseshoe sit empty half of the time. Um, hello.

And they could have expanded Adventureland with an Aladdin area NOT in the middle of the land (or Fire Mountain). But ... nope.

 

[Mike S]

Exactly. Instead of replacing Toad with Pooh, and then giving us a kids play area ten years later where the subs were, Pooh could have gone there (I'd rather have the subs but that's a whole other topic) and they STILL could have expanded Fantasyland with Little Mermaid and the Dwarfs Mine Train. And Snow White could have been rethemed to another dark ride (um, hello Alice ... but considering it's next to Village Haus, hello Pinocchio). But nope.

We'd have two dark rides that we no longer have (Toad and re-themed Snow), plus a family coaster (Mine Train with more dark ride scenes), and TWO new dark rides (Mermaid and Pooh), PLUS a restaurant (Be Our Guest) and they could have still done Belle's little meet and greet plus a Princess meet. Again ... nope.

Not to mention how Tortuga Tavern, Adventureland Veranda, Tomorrowland Terrace and Diamond Horseshoe sit empty half of the time. Um, hello.

And they could have expanded Adventureland with an Aladdin area NOT in the middle of the land (or Fire Mountain). But ... nope.

Or they could have gotten rid of Toontown much sooner for a Storybook Land like in DL and DLP and Pooh could have gone there. Oh and it could've been Hunny Hunt that we got instead of the cheaper dark ride but as you say ... nope. Tomorrowland also has plenty of space. From my own simple observation I see possible space for four new rides there all before even considering removal of the Speedway. Completely gutting the buildings for Stitch (maybe even one of the gift shops too) and Monsters could be enough space for 2 small C/D Ticket dark rides. Then there's 2 spaces for possible E Tickets in an area next to Space Mountain which was actually considered at one point and the parking lot if Disney was willing to use it.

Once again, thanks for that picture @marni1971

 

[PhotoDave219]

I'll give you a reason why Magic Kingdom is slammed right now? Beyond all the other reasons, the economic reasons, the other parks failing to hold people, etc., etc.…

As much as we all don't want to hear this… It's the only park you can meet those darn frozen twins. You can only find them in one park.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

I just returned form a week long trip to Orlando (for the first time in our last 4 trips, we skipped Uni parks, we were with family that wanted to do all for Disney parks). This was my families first time using the new Disney Experience and Fast Pass Plus... We stay off property (I have timeshare), and not on property.

I gotta tell you, I am probably best labeled a pixie duster, I love the place, for various reasons... But I had such a mediocre experience, it has me rethinking our annual trips. Or at best coming down and and only spending one day at MK and then spending the rest of the week elsewhere. We had a such a good time at our hotel (MARRIOTT HARBOR LAKE) that we cut days short to get back there.

First, the cast members at the parks were just "off". Now I know this is hit or miss, not all cast members, but there were more grumpy and just nasty cast members than I have ever encountered. In fact, I heard on three occasions, cast members swearing at each other. Once while walking into Star Tours, as we passed I heard three cast members on the side of the stage swearing like truck drivers, as I looked over my shoulder at them they just cackled and kept it up...

Second, Fast Pass is killing the experience. I was constantly looking at my phone to make sure we were in the right area of the park or that we would not miss our tie slot. It made the whole day just stressful, not fun. And rides like Pirates, why is there a fast pass? The lines are just inflated now. It's foolish.

Third, DAK and HS are at best 1/2 day parks that are full of filler and are just begging to be "fixed". There is not enough content to justify a $100 park admission.

I post this here, and not in the trip reports forum more because, I feel that I may have flipped a bit. This trip may have pushed me a bit AWAY from the pixie dust covered smiles and into the middle ground of, "I CAN SPEND MY MONEY ELSEWHERE..."

As we drove back the the airport, my wife and I both said, "It was a good time, we had fun, the kids had fun, but we are not going to rush back to WDW... not for at least 3-4 years."

We've begun thinking about a cruise, not a Disney cruise either.

Makes me sad, honestly. Feels like I've grown up, or someone told me the truth about Santa.

Unfortunately, this scenario sounds very similar to have many around here have already experienced.

Re: the Cast Members - there has been a change in the quality of service in my opinion and unfortunately, I believe it is directly related to two things: the current attendance load in the parks and the introduction of MM+/FP+. The parks FEEL busier than ever because attendance is going up, attraction capacity is not increasing along with it, and FP+ is taking people out of physical lines and leaving them to roam the streets. In addition, MM+/FP+ has left many of the Cast Members I've spoken with frustrated and feeling helpless as the system is wrought with technical issues and very few solutions at their fingertips to assist guests. Those that I've spoken with feel that they have their hands tied and can't offer anything more than "I'm sorry" to the guests.

Re: FP+ and time management - You hit the nail on the head. The system that is supposed to make things easier and less stressful actually works in the opposite capacity. I refer to FP+ as the Croc from Pan. You play the role of Hook and are always on the lookout for the Croc (time) to catch up with you and spoil your day. The best kind of Disney Magic was and will always be the impromptu and spontaneous moments that you don't expect or plan and FP+ does it best to take all of that away.

The good news is that there is a solution to the way you are feeling. There is a way to restore your belief in Disney Parks and recharge that battery - Disneyland Resort. Next year will be very special as DLR will be celebrating their 60th anniversary and it will be a perfect time to go once the celebration starts.

The problems with WDW these days only magnify with repeat visits. There is still magic there; but, to borrow a promotional phrase from Disney Parks - it's Limited Time Magic these days. The more you visit, the more you realize the resort isn't living up to its potential or even close to the high standards it set for itself decades ago.

 

[GoofGoof]

You're both wrong... it was Franklin.


Considering it is the common consensus that Disney is destroying the parks, why would you want Disney to buy out OLC. They are the ones doing it right.


Can someone explain that phenomenon to me? How are those two thoughts compatible? If Disney is terribly over priced and it takes such a larger part of ones paycheck to actually go there, how is it possible that there are more people there then ever before. It just doesn't make sense, economics wise. Perhaps the vast majority of that high end charging is in the resorts and dining sector. Since the overall resort census is down they must be staying elsewhere and eating elsewhere. The cost of admittance is high but only in percentage. It is affordable because even though the percentage is higher WDW to WDW it is not that way when total income is considered. It doesn't matter what the rate of inflation is, if you have enough money to pay the admittance you will go and that part will not cause you to melt down. It is already spent before you ever set foot in the park.

Now what will cause a meltdown and angry people is that when someone has never been to WDW before shows up unprepared and have done no research they are quickly overwhelmed by the complexity and the need to plan. The problem is it is already to late to plan cause they are there now. Then they try to get something to eat at a sit down restaurant and find that without a ADR they cannot get served. So they have a hungry family standing in place behind a long line at a quick service restaurant. They cannot even sit down until the food is purchased. The QS restaurants are so crowded because Disney, in all their wisdom, will not open another quick service location to ease that problem. Then they have to spend hours in the heat trying to get on a dam* ride because they were not aware of the need to get FP's ahead of time. They see people sitting on the curbs on Main Street a full 2 hours before a parade, but they don't know that's why they are there. So the parade starts and there is a group of people that seem seven feet tall that have a kid on their shoulders standing in front of them so they cannot really see the parade. And the list goes on.

It is frustration, not expense that induces anger. And really, who would think that simply going to a theme park would require a half year of planning? If I had never been there before it would never even occur to me that any planning was required at all. We know that now because of our exposure to it, but, they have no way of knowing without being told directly. They will not research it because they just don't know that they need to do so. So frustrated people are angry people because, yes they are paying a lot for the experience and they are getting very little satisfaction out of it, but, if the experience was good, no matter what it costs, they would not be angry and frustrated.

One factor is the changing dynamic of families. In the 70s and early 80s when WDW was "a bargain" a lot more families were single income and people had less disposable income. Flash forward to today. 2 income families is the norm and people in general have more disposable income to spend on things like vacations. Combine this with an increase in foreign tourists (especially South America) and you get more guests even though prices are higher. This isn't the only driver, but it's one of them.

 

[Mike S]

I'll give you a reason why Magic Kingdom is slammed right now? Beyond all the other reasons, the economic reasons, the other parks failing to hold people, etc., etc.…

As much as we all don't want to hear this… It's the only park you can meet those darn frozen twins. You can only find them in one park.

If Disney was smart they would keep the Frozen M&G in MK as well as adding it back to Epcot when that (insert whatever you want here) ride opens. Have them in both parks to try and minimize Frozen crowds in each park the best they can. I can only imagine the horror of having the ride and the only place to meet them in that tiny pavilion *shudders*.

 

[wdisney9000]

I'll give you a reason why Magic Kingdom is slammed right now? Beyond all the other reasons, the economic reasons, the other parks failing to hold people, etc., etc.…

As much as we all don't want to hear this… It's the only park you can meet those darn frozen twins. You can only find them in one park.

Is the draw for the twins M&G that crazy?

 

[GoofGoof]

I'll give you a reason why Magic Kingdom is slammed right now? Beyond all the other reasons, the economic reasons, the other parks failing to hold people, etc., etc.…

As much as we all don't want to hear this… It's the only park you can meet those darn frozen twins. You can only find them in one park.

And when they move them to EPCOT it will drive crowds there. Crazy, but true.

 

[BrianLo]

I agree with everyone there is a resort wide capacity issue, but capacity is half of the problem. At some point the infrastructure just does not exist for the parks in their current design to fit more people. There is a tipping point when no matter how many rides there are you can't shove any more people down Main Street to get to them. The infrastructure issues are far more nebulous and require large scale overhauls like those occurring in the hub.

This is apparent at Disneyland, despite having way more capacity, the actual infrastructure would crumble far earlier than Magic Kingdom.

Honestly in my opinion Magic Kingdom had passed the tipping point (and larger guests and strollers probably haven't helped). Disneyland passed that point too... And the only thing that suddenly reversed the looming disaster was the DCA overhaul.

The real issue is how dyschotemous things are with the other gates. Animal Kingdom in its current state does very little to help with the resort during problem periods - when most guests dump out of it and head to other parks. More than Avatar, the night show, which will actually keep guests in park during the critical afternoon/late evening periods is a big first fix to the problem. The other parks desperately need to pick up the slack before MK explodes.

Love it or hate it, but Epcot does have the infrastructure to handle more guests (although maybe not the capacity), if for only that reason (and not for thematic reasons) frozen in the short term is a better choice for that park.