The Spirited 11th Hour ...

[Absimilliard]

I think you might be forgetting things like the first steel rollercoaster was built at Disneyland, under Walt's direction (Matterhorn). I tend to think folks also don't understand that children and adults can and often do both enjoy more "thrilling" rides - parents and children ride the "thrill" rides together every single day.




He couldn't ride the carousel with his children because traditionally carousels were only made for children; I think you'll find the one he built that could both house adults and children is quite different than the one in the legendary anecdote.

Walt Disney did not have any Carousels built at the Magic Kingdom or Disneyland. "Liberty" was built in 1917 by the famed Philadelphia Toboggan Company and it originally featured a mix of non jumper and jumper horses along with two Chariots. The two chariots were put in storage (one is still missing and the other discovered in a warehouse 30 + years after when WDW decided to reinstall them!) and other antique horses bought around the country to bring it to a roster of 90 horses. Arrow Development rebuilt the mechanism and built a new platform when Disney bought it in 1967; interestingly, there is no such thing as "Cinderella's Horse" on it. Antique Carousels traditionally have a "lead horse" and it always is on the outside row facing the midway bearing the most details. In the case of Liberty/Prince Charming Regal Carrousel, the lead horse is easily distinctive since it still has the Bald Eagle on it. That Cinderella's Horse mentioned in guide books just happened to be a horse with a bowtie sculpted on the tail and according to Isle Voight, who restored it, it is a mere coincidence.

Disneyland Prince Arthur Carrousel is also a beautiful antique. It was a Dentzel piece smaller than the WDW one that operated in Toronto from 1922 until Walt Disney bought it. He then had Arrow Development work on it to make it a full jumper with the help of various horses bought around the country. In this case, there is a "Mary Poppins" horse. Jingles was the original lead horse and in 2008, Disney modified it to honor Mary Poppins.

Tokyo Disneyland Castle Carrousel horses are fiberglass copies from 18 horses from Liberty.

Disneyland Paris Carrousel de Lancelot has a particular history: The platform and mechanism were sourced from Zamperla (they make all the various spinners like Dumbo, Orbitron and the Flying Carpets) while the horses are a mix of carved wooden figures and Fiberglass casted figures. The inside rows are again fiberglass copies from Liberty while the outside row were purposely hand carved in the USA (Pennsylvania, but no one gave me a definitive answer). There is no information online about the DLP Carrousel and it took me quite a bit of time to piece it together.

 

[TP2000]

Yeah, Anaheim is always the epitome of class. I'll never forget the time I was staying at The Grand Californian hotel in DL and was cutting through the pool area to go to DCA. A nicely dressed woman was also walking through there with her maybe 5 year old son. She was very clearly drunk, and slurring her words. She tripped and started laughing when this CM came over to help her up. She starts touching him provocatively and saying a flirty voice, "I'm VERY appreciative of this" all in front of her little boy. That's when I just left.

If I were that CM, it would have been all I could do to not say "Koo-koo-ka-choo, Mrs. Robinson".

Which is probably why I was never a CM.

Drunk hotel guests are something else, since they aren't interviewed and hired by the Walt Disney Company, and that basic scenario plays out with handsome young hotel employees in at least a couple dozen hotels around the country every day.

But theme park CM's swearing into a PA system at an attraction is something entirely different. Which is what we were talking about.

 

[Wikkler]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between CEO and President? And how will separating those positions help fix the parks?

I'm aware that some other people don't know the difference between CEO and President so don't feel bad.

 

[TeriofTerror]

I think you might be forgetting things like the first steel rollercoaster was built at Disneyland, under Walt's direction (Matterhorn). I tend to think folks also don't understand that children and adults can and often do both enjoy more "thrilling" rides - parents and children ride the "thrill" rides together every single day.

I agree. And creating a place where parents and kids can have fun together doesn't mean that they all need to enjoy the same rides together. Thinking the attractions that appeal to three-year-old Susie will be equally entertaining to fifteen-year-old Jack is just plain silly. For the place to cater to all, it needs attractions aimed at a variety of demographics.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I think you might be forgetting things like the first steel rollercoaster was built at Disneyland, under Walt's direction (Matterhorn). I tend to think folks also don't understand that children and adults can and often do both enjoy more "thrilling" rides - parents and children ride the "thrill" rides together every single day.




He couldn't ride the carousel with his children because traditionally carousels were only made for children; I think you'll find the one he built that could both house adults and children is quite different than the one in the legendary anecdote.

Well, Cinderella's Golden Carousel at MK (Sure they changed the name but screw them!) was built by the Philadelphia Toboggan Company in 1917. So both kids and adults could ride the carousel, unless it broke down. (Music Cue: "The Merry-go-round broke down")

 

[GoofGoof]

Walt Disney did not have any Carousels built at the Magic Kingdom or Disneyland. "Liberty" was built in 1917 by the famed Philadelphia Toboggan Company and it originally featured a mix of non jumper and jumper horses along with two Chariots. The two chariots were put in storage (one is still missing and the other discovered in a warehouse 30 + years after when WDW decided to reinstall them!) and other antique horses bought around the country to bring it to a roster of 90 horses. Arrow Development rebuilt the mechanism and built a new platform when Disney bought it in 1967; interestingly, there is no such thing as "Cinderella's Horse" on it. Antique Carousels traditionally have a "lead horse" and it always is on the outside row facing the midway bearing the most details. In the case of Liberty/Prince Charming Regal Carrousel, the lead horse is easily distinctive since it still has the Bald Eagle on it. That Cinderella's Horse mentioned in guide books just happened to be a horse with a bowtie sculpted on the tail and according to Isle Voight, who restored it, it is a mere coincidence.

Disneyland Prince Arthur Carrousel is also a beautiful antique. It was a Dentzel piece smaller than the WDW one that operated in Toronto from 1922 until Walt Disney bought it. He then had Arrow Development work on it to make it a full jumper with the help of various horses bought around the country. In this case, there is a "Mary Poppins" horse. Jingles was the original lead horse and in 2008, Disney modified it to honor Mary Poppins.

Tokyo Disneyland Castle Carrousel horses are fiberglass copies from 18 horses from Liberty.

Disneyland Paris Carrousel de Lancelot has a particular history: The platform and mechanism were sourced from Zamperla (they make all the various spinners like Dumbo, Orbitron and the Flying Carpets) while the horses are a mix of carved wooden figures and Fiberglass casted figures. The inside rows are again fiberglass copies from Liberty while the outside row were purposely hand carved in the USA (Pennsylvania, but no one gave me a definitive answer). There is no information online about the DLP Carrousel and it took me quite a bit of time to piece it together.

Good info. The Philadelphia Toboggan Company was headquartered right near my hood. Pretty cool that a part of WDW was built just down the road from me. Here's a quick article about the old girl when she was at Olypic Park in NJ. Check out some of the pictures. It looks like they needed fast pass
http://www.nj.com/inside-jersey/ind...l_hit_the_trail_to_disneys_magic_kingdom.html

 

[JoeCamel]

Good info. The Philadelphia Toboggan Company was headquartered right near my hood. Pretty cool that a part of WDW was built just down the road from me. Here's a quick article about the old girl when she was at Olypic Park in NJ. Check out some of the pictures. It looks like they needed fast pass
http://www.nj.com/inside-jersey/ind...l_hit_the_trail_to_disneys_magic_kingdom.html

Those footrests can be tough on your shins if you are not careful......... can I sue for the damage?

 

[GrammieBee]

Excuse me for chiming in again, but I have a question and an observation.
First, just WHY is it necessary to have a thrill ride in Fantasyland when there are four other Lands in the Magic Kingdom where it would be possible to have one? (I wonder how it could be themed in Liberty Square. Interesting thought.) Do we have to to have thrill rides everywhere? Plus, there are three other parks in which to put another one. Please don't get me wrong. We loved thrill rides and rode on just about every one in the USA when we were younger..
Second, there is a vast difference between something thrilling or horrifying in a story and actually experiencing it on a ride or attraction.. This is true for some adults and especially for a child. Look what happened to Alien Encounter. A great show, but you did need a good grasp on reality.

 

[GoofGoof]

Those footrests can be tough on your shins if you are not careful......... can I sue for the damage?

You can try, but you have to get in line behind the lady that dropped dead from seeing a snake bite her kid, all the people suing over the guest assistance card and all the former employees who are now suing Disney. It may take a while to get to court.

 

[ford91exploder]

I agree. And creating a place where parents and kids can have fun together doesn't mean that they all need to enjoy the same rides together. Thinking the attractions that appeal to three-year-old Susie will be equally entertaining to fifteen-year-old Jack is just plain silly. For the place to cater to all, it needs attractions aimed at a variety of demographics.

Yes this is what's wrong with the operational theory of the parks today - Walt's idea was a park with SOMETHING for everyone, Today's Disney insists that EVERYTHING must be suitable for a fearful toddler. Walt 'Something for Everyone' Iger 'All must be suitable for Everyone'

 

[GoofGoof]

Excuse me for chiming in again, but I have a question and an observation.
First, just WHY is it necessary to have a thrill ride in Fantasyland when there are four other Lands in the Magic Kingdom where it would be possible to have one? (I wonder how it could be themed in Liberty Square. Interesting thought.) Do we have to to have thrill rides everywhere? Plus, there are three other parks in which to put another one. Please don't get me wrong. We loved thrill rides and rode on just about every one in the USA when we were younger..
There is a vast difference between something thrilling or horrifying in a story and actually experiencing it on a ride. This is true for some adults and especially for a child. Look what happened to Alien Encounter.

I don't think most people do think it's necessary to have a thrill ride in Fantasy Land.

There is a pretty large happy middle ground between Barnstormer, Enchanted Tails with Belle and Dumbo which are focused more on the younger ones and an inverted roller coaster that goes 100 mph. I think Mine Train fits that bill nicely. I have to admit that it's a bit short though especially considering the wait. From reading all the comments about FLE from years before it opened up until now I think the best way to summarize the complaints is not that it needed a thrill ride but that it needed a little more meat to it, especially for adults who may not be as interested in the Belle meet and greet and Dumbo play area which are both great additions for anyone with kids (especially if you are visiting in the summer).

My personal opinion is that FLE is partially a victim of timing. Nothing major happened at WDW for a while and then this project is green lit. People expected a Potter Swatter and it was never intended to be that. If Avatar and the DHS projects happened first then came FLE it would have probably been a lot better received.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I agree. And creating a place where parents and kids can have fun together doesn't mean that they all need to enjoy the same rides together. Thinking the attractions that appeal to three-year-old Susie will be equally entertaining to fifteen-year-old Jack is just plain silly. For the place to cater to all, it needs attractions aimed at a variety of demographics.

Which is my point. Just like there are many areas of WDW and Disneyland that do not cater to children as much, Fantasyland is ideal to be for them AND still be able to have the parents with them and not sitting on a bench. No park anywhere can have attractions that will appeal to everyone, but, the should be accessible to everyone especially when the children are small and it isn't as much fun by themselves. Kids are people too and it is great that they can have an area that actually cares about them and that they can do with Mom and Dad! In turn there are many other attractions that the kids go along with because they have no choice, but, aren't exactly overjoyed about it, but, Mom and Dad like it.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yes this is what's wrong with the operational theory of the parks today - Walt's idea was a park with SOMETHING for everyone, Today's Disney insists that EVERYTHING must be suitable for a fearful toddler. Walt 'Something for Everyone' Iger 'All must be suitable for Everyone'

Hard to say since so little has actually been added to WDW under Iger's term as CEO. Technically EE opened under him, but was already in planning before he took over. EE is not exactly toddler friendly. The rest have been really pretty small additions or subtractions. This is what I was saying about FLE. Because it was the only major project at WDW in years and was more geared towards the younger crowd it skews the view that Iger and management is only focused on the toddler crowd. Avatar and Star Wars don't sound like they will be like that. Obviously Toy Story Land slants younger.

 

[MKCP 1985]

Excuse me for chiming in again, but I have a question and an observation.
First, just WHY is it necessary to have a thrill ride in Fantasyland when there are four other Lands in the Magic Kingdom where it would be possible to have one? (I wonder how it could be themed in Liberty Square. Interesting thought.) Do we have to to have thrill rides everywhere? Plus, there are three other parks in which to put another one. Please don't get me wrong. We loved thrill rides and rode on just about every one in the USA when we were younger..
There is a vast difference between something thrilling or horrifying in a story and actually experiencing it on a ride. This is true for some adults and especially for a child. Look what happened to Alien Encounter.

I was watching the Walt Disney Treasures DVD on Disneyland just yesterday (excited about an upcoming trip out west) and Walt Disney himself had to be talked into adding the Matterhorn at his park. So you are not alone in your desire to limit the number of thrill rides in Disney parks, but the success of the Matterhorn changed Walt Disney's initial impression and led to the addition of others.

My answer to your question, which represents a point of view shared by a number of people who either have no children or whose children are older is that adding a thrill attraction, when done right, makes the park more appealing to a wider range of guests who might otherwise feel like the park doesn't offer what they want. The criticisms I read of the addition of the 7 Dwarfs Mine Train are mostly that the ride doesn't go far enough, not that a coaster should not have been added.

As much as Alien Encounter missed the mark, Space Mountain has been a runaway success such that one can hardly think of Tomorrowland without Space Mountain. It is my hope that I live long enough to see an attraction added to Fantasyland that brings the same level of excitement to that area for older kids and adults that Harry Potter Forbidden Journey brought to Universal. I believe that can be done without alienating the fans who look forward to Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh and Its a Small World.

 

[AEfx]

High drama is not necessary in Fantasyland unless one's fantasy is to wet one's pants.

Either way it isn't a hill that I would opt to die on, so I am out of this conversation.

So it's not really about "families" then - but catering to those with....extreme fear. Given how many little children through adults and even seniors who ride SDMT every day, it's perfectly family oriented - just not oriented to your personal sensibilities.

 

[GrammieBee]

I'm back. I'm not against adding thrill rides. I just don't agree with the thinking that what is conceptually and ecssentually a story book land and only one section of a much larger park,has to have one. The adults are incapable of taking pleasure in what is there or in watching the enjoyment of their children? They are so easily bored? How sad.
And, yes. The mine train could have been somewhat longer. But it isn't. Enough said.

 

[Mike S]

I was watching the Walt Disney Treasures DVD on Disneyland just yesterday (excited about an upcoming trip out west) and Walt Disney himself had to be talked into adding the Matterhorn at his park. So you are not alone in your desire to limit the number of thrill rides in Disney parks, but the success of the Matterhorn changed Walt Disney's initial impression and led to the addition of others.

My answer to your question, which represents a point of view shared by a number of people who either have no children or whose children are older is that adding a thrill attraction, when done right, makes the park more appealing to a wider range of guests who might otherwise feel like the park doesn't offer what they want. The criticisms I read of the addition of the 7 Dwarfs Mine Train are mostly that the ride doesn't go far enough, not that a coaster should not have been added.

As much as Alien Encounter missed the mark, Space Mountain has been a runaway success such that one can hardly think of Tomorrowland without Space Mountain. It is my hope that I live long enough to see an attraction added to Fantasyland that brings the same level of excitement to that area for older kids and adults that Harry Potter Forbidden Journey brought to Universal. I believe that can be done without alienating the fans who look forward to Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh and Its a Small World.

Wasn't it his idea? I remember a story that while in Switzerland Walt bought a Matterhorn postcard and sent it back to WED with the words "build this."

Maybe that was when Third Man on the Mountain was on TCM.

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm back. I'm not against adding thrill rides. I just don't understand the thinking that what is conceptually and ecssentually a story book land and only one section of a much larger park,has to have one. The adults are incapable of taking pleasure in what is there or in watching the enjoyment of their children? They are so easily bored? How sad.
And, yes. The mine train could have been somewhat longer. But it isn't.

7DMT would have been an E ticket if TDO had not cut it way way back and it would not have been a 'thrill' ride. E-ticket != Thrill ride see PoTC for a good example.

 

[TeriofTerror]

Wasn't it his idea? I remember a story that while in Switzerland Walt bought a Matterhorn postcard and sent it back to WED with the words "build this."

Maybe that was when Third Man on the Mountain was on TCM.

And I recall hearing that Roy objected to the expense, so Walt had them start construction while Roy was out of town.

 

[JoeCamel]

7DMT would have been an E ticket if TDO had not cut it way way back and it would not have been a 'thrill' ride. E-ticket != Thrill ride see PoTC for a good example.

I have to agree, the "E" ticket has more to do with quality and imagination that thrills and scares. Coulda woulda shoulda but they dint