alissafalco
Well-Known Member
He's just saying with a little more time, thoughtfulness, and $$$, I'm sure they could have made things flow a lot better.
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The Spirit Takes the Fifth ...
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He's just saying with a little more time, thoughtfulness, and $$$, I'm sure they could have made things flow a lot better.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
If I recall the history of Disneyland and WDW correctly, it was Walt Disney and his Imagineers who obsessed over details, including transitions between lands and reveals.
I think I understand where you are coming from but don't fault someone for noting when corporate Disney fails to maintain the standards they used to try to achieve, with varying degrees of success.
I think its more now how the iasw and Pan facades stick out like a sore thumb in comparison.
EPCOTs dome was a fallacy. A tiny part of downtown would have had a normal roof over it, with dome shaped skylights in it.
lebeau
Well-Known Member
I am not suggesting that the show should follow the source material slavishly. The TV show could not possibly do a shot-for-shot remake of the comic book. It would be impractical, it would never get past the censors and it would alienate TV audiences. No one is suggesting that.
The problem is, the TV show keeps taking parts of the comic book and then changing things in ways that no longer make sense. Since they have changed or omitted things, they need to take the story in new directions. But instead, they force the story back to where the comic book went even if it doesn't always fit.
Personally, I like that the show changes things. It keeps me on the edge of my seat in a way that would not be the case if the show followed the comics exactly.
Having said that, the show's greatest sin is padding things out. Assume for a moment that the prison story was always going to end in a blood bath. There is no reason for that ending to have been delayed from the end of season 3 to the middle of season 4. Instead, we basically ran in place for half a season to get right back where we were at the end of season 3.
And that was on top of all the filler that padded out season 3. All of the episode that centered on Andrea waffling just to maintain the status quo. I can not image someone sitting through the entire prison arc of season 3 and one half of season 4. There are hours and hours of material that go no where.
I agree that The Walking Dead probably won't be around in 5 years (in its current form anyway) and definitely won't be around in 10. Frankly, you just saw the best story the comic book (and Kirkman) have to offer. It's all downhill from here. Maybe Gimple and company can elevate the material for the show. Or maybe they can take it in an entirely new direction - although casting announcements and preview clips suggest otherwise.
I am not quite sure why the mid-season finale has shaken your belief in the show as much as it seems to. It's par for the course. The show and the comic book both end storylines in gruesome death more often than not.
Also, I agree with your assessment of Kirkman's talent. He doesn't have what it takes to run a TV show and he needs to stop throwing his weight around and getting showrunners fired. But I sense a dismissive tone in your post as though "geek comics" are somehow beneath you. Hopefully not your intent. But let's not dismiss an entire medium as though comic books are not deserving of faithful adaptations.
I was really impressed with what Gimple pulled off with the Meghan storyline. That was a clever way to recycle the prequel material in a new light.
I think Gimple had 2 choices for season 4. He could either ignore the mess that Mazarra made of Season 3 or he could try to redeem it. He opted for the later which mean the first half of season 4 is basically a remake of what the last half of season 3 should have been. He did a good job with the hand he was dealt. It's just a damn shame Mazarra made such a mess of season 3.
Ideally, we would have gotten a definitive end to the prison arc in the season 3 finale. Then season 4 would have been a whole new story arc. They could have still done the Gov in a prequel mini-series if they wanted to. Heck, there was probably enough material to have done an entrire prequel spin-off.
I am hopeful that untethered from season 3, Gimple can really cut loose. I am cautiously optimistic that the second half of season 4 will be the best the show has been since season 1.
JimboJones123
Well-Known Member
Now that I agree on.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Imagineering needs to stop building with the mindset of "we'll do that stuff later", because "later" often never happens.
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RandySavage
Well-Known Member
This is a very good post with several valid points, well argued. Alot of the time I think your posts are nail-on-head and very well- and succintly-written (like the one on the irony of the urban sprawl development of WDW). However, I strongly disagree with your overall position on New Fantasyland. I think it exceeds the Original Fantasyland in quality of design and execution for a number of reasons.
1. You often mention 'cartoony' when describing it. I can understand the application of the term, but I'd substitute "Disney storybook" or "theatrical" and save "cartoony" for something like DL's Toontown. Instead, I think the area's designers have done a great job of creating the Disney animated fairytale worlds in a not-overly-toony way:
They could have strictly stuck to the "toony" look from the films (simple lines, no grit), but they instead created a historic world that can be co-inhabited by the Real and the Animated. Environmentally, there is best-in-class work going in here.
2. American 20th C. Dumbo moved to its own land. Great move. Strengthens Fantasyland Proper's theme by making it almost entirely European and Pre-20th C.. and keeps all the circus stuff isolated.
3. I've seen criticism of the distinct sub-areas (e.g. B&B area, Mermaid area, 7DMT area). When done well (e.g. Paris Adventureland) this approach is a strength. It is done very well in NFL - each rendered in the same vernacular but exhibiting a distinct geography that makes the area that much more interesting to wander through - this should be especially apparent once all the walls are down.
4. Then there is the distinction between old and new styles (which your post describes). In a perfect world, the whole of the land would be re-rendered in the Storybook Style (as in Anaheim). This wasn't realistic, fiscally, so there is the clash of styles. In the east, I think the Castle Walls, done in the "Castle brick" style, does a great deal to amend this. It is more jarring in the Tangled Toilets area, as you point out, but as the trees grow in (if they are allowed to) this should be improved (and help sightlines from Liberty Square).
In isolation, the Tangled-area is on par with the other new environments. While the clash with the opposite old Alpine Village is a drawback, I think the new styles are more interesting (theatrical) and fun than the rigid, curve-less recreation of Rothenburg, Germany (leave that to World Showcase) interspersed with the awful "Tournament Tent" facades. The Tangled area at the least adds benefits in the waterfall and stream, the small park and the spot-the-iguana game. So I agree, it is not the ideal transition architecturally. But the original transition area had an even greater drawback...
5. Rose-colored glasses approach to Old Fantasyland. The Skyway supertructure (not station) with its steel pylons and wires, views of show-building roofs, etc., was, IMO, a visual abomination and is well-ride-of. So while I too appreciated the beautiful transition from Liberty Square to the Alps, the Skyway itself did a lot of damage to the themed environment. 20,000K, while visually stunning from the outside (but not a super ride, IMO), was also a theme-killer if the land is trying to transport the visitor to a fantasy kingdom where Disney fairytale stories come to life. (Would have been nice if it anchored a Mysterious Island-type area between Tomorrowland and Fantasyland). The plastic/fiberglass "tournament tent queue" approach was and remains the least-visually appealing aspect of any Castle park (NFL Pooh thankfully did away with one of these (Although I much prefer Mr. Toad as a ride).
6. NFE is in-theme. It advances, enchances, and adds to the land's core Theme. This should be a requisite of any addition to the parks, but is often not the case. So that can be celebrated.
7. Stlyle over substance argument. Even if one feels all the attractions are duds, at the very least there will exist a rich, well-executed new environment to explore - and that can be an attraction (e.g., DisneySea's Cape Cod).
So, in sum, despite its warts, NFE is still a very big bright spot.[/quote]
Funmeister
Well-Known Member
Want to talk about mis-matched theming? How about the train wreck that is Adventureland!
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
I don't think there's anything wrong with using 90 degree angles and straight edges in a "fantasy" enviroment. Both the castle and main street do this, but retain a fantastic look due to the amount and placement of ornamentation.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Or how New Tomorrowland just stops after a certain point.
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know. You're getting technical. It was more like a huge mall. I wonder which would have had more interior space: Florida Mall or EPCOT's center?
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Oh, some time back, I was having a discussion here about what Walt originally wanted for the Magic Kingdom at WDW. People here were convinced that Walt wanted nothing more than a clone of DL, pointing to what looked like a complete copy of DL in the place of the MK on early Master Plans. I argued that what was in the early Master Plans was merely a placeholder for the MK, with no real details yet decided on.
Well, I just watched the Florida press conference, where Walt takes questions about the property. When speculating who will visit WDW, Walt makes perfectly clear that WDW will not be a clone of DL and says it has to have differences because they would like to attract people from California to visit too. So, I guess I was right. The video is on YouTube.
Well, I just watched the Florida press conference, where Walt takes questions about the property. When speculating who will visit WDW, Walt makes perfectly clear that WDW will not be a clone of DL and says it has to have differences because they would like to attract people from California to visit too. So, I guess I was right. The video is on YouTube.
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Once you've been exposed to DL's IASW, any sight of the WDW version is an irritating reminder of how much better DL is.
Yup. Plus, take WDWs original queue ramps and load/unload layout and add the vastness and set back, facade layered and railroad passing frontage of Disneyland, add popcorn light edged guest area weatherproof canopies and you have the Paris version. A beautiful representation of how far things came from 1971 to 1992 and an example of how good Orlando's could look if it were given the open air treatment instead of flooded aircraft hanger.
stevehousse
Well-Known Member
You are correct! Walt didn't even want a MK style park in the Florida Project! It was to be Epcot! He recieved some backlash about that and was kind of "forced" to add MK. That's why it's all the way at the tip top of the property! Remember, ou originally were suppose to fly into te Disney airport, then take the monorail to Epcot City or Downtown Disney, and then head to MK, but Epcot was always suppose to be the number one destination for the FL project...
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the Imagineers are ever asked to blue sky the ultimate thematic and logistical park fixes to use as a general goal or direction which all future projects would embrace?
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
That is somewhat correct, but, if you really listen to that press conference, it seems quite clear that he knew that they both needed to exist to get the project to work. He concentrated on the EPCOT portion and left his trusted imagineers to design MK, tourist Hotels and Golf Courses. If I remember correctly EPCOT was not even mentioned by name. It was referred to as the Florida Project. He only focused on MK and said that some of the stuff that was in DL would also be in MK, but, that they had many ideas and planned to create some of them in Florida. Whether or not he meant MK or EPCOT is something that we will never know. He needed MK to pay the bills to build EPCOT. I think that the creation of EPCOT would have followed, almost immediately, the creation of MK.
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm talking about a discussion I had here about what was being planned for the MK at the time Walt died. Some people here insist Walt wanted nothing more than a clone of DL, with EPCOT (city) his only real focus or interest. My take is that this is mostly accurate. His focus/interest was primarily EPCOT, and he did copy and paste DL into the space on the WDW Master Plan for the MK at exactly where it is today, but that was a placeholder. His intent was not to clone DL, as I just learned he even said that in his Florida press conference. I remember reading some time back that Walt wanted many of the Fantasyland attractions to be WDW originals. For example, there was going to Mary Poppins ride with a broomstick flight over London in the place of where Peter Pan is. To cut corners and save money, Roy Disney ordered a clone of DL's Peter Pan, Snow White, and Mr. Toad. Snow White and Mr. Toad were also originally going to be WDW originals instead, but I forgot what they were supposed to be.
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