The Spirit Takes the Fifth ...

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PeterAlt

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That is somewhat correct, but, if you really listen to that press conference, it seems quite clear that he knew that they both needed to exist to get the project to work. He concentrated on the EPCOT portion and left his trusted imagineers to design MK, tourist Hotels and Golf Courses. If I remember correctly EPCOT was not even mentioned by name. It was referred to as the Florida Project. He only focused on MK and said that some of the stuff that was in DL would also be in MK, but, that they had many ideas and planned to create some of them in Florida. Whether or not he meant MK or EPCOT is something that we will never know. He needed MK to pay the bills to build EPCOT. I think that the creation of EPCOT would have followed, almost immediately, the creation of MK.
He was talking about, in general, what was being planned to go into the Florida property; but, he did make clear that the theme park wasn't going to be a clone of DL because it has to have attractions that would bring tourists to Florida, including tourists from California.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Oh, some time back, I was having a discussion here about what Walt originally wanted for the Magic Kingdom at WDW. People here were convinced that Walt wanted nothing more than a clone of DL, pointing to what looked like a complete copy of DL in the place of the MK on early Master Plans. I argued that what was in the early Master Plans was merely a placeholder for the MK, with no real details yet decided on.

Well, I just watched the Florida press conference, where Walt takes questions about the property. When speculating who will visit WDW, Walt makes perfectly clear that WDW will not be a clone of DL and says it has to have differences because they would like to attract people from California to visit too. So, I guess I was right. The video is on YouTube.
The thought is that, much like had happened at the studio, that Walt would essentially let the Imagineers deal with the new theme park while he focused on EPCOT. He expected them to do something different, but the how and what was of little concern to him, and thus his willingness to just drop Disneyland into plans. Just because he expected a different park does not mean he intended to be heavily involved the way he was with Disneyland.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
He was talking about, in general, what was being planned to go into the Florida property; but, he did make clear that the theme park wasn't going to be a clone of DL because it has to have attractions that would bring tourists to Florida, including tourists from California.
No it wasn't going to be a complete clone, but, if you listen to it again you will hear him specifically say that some of the things "in Florida" will be the same as Disneyland. Just not all of them. I don't know anymore then you do what exactly he was thinking, but a couple that come to mind would be the Castle, The Carousel, The Teacups, Autotopia, Monorails, Trains, Main Street and I'm sure that there were others. All the same, almost clones, but not quite.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Yup. Plus, take WDWs original queue ramps and load/unload layout and add the vastness and set back, facade layered and railroad passing frontage of Disneyland, add popcorn light edged guest area weatherproof canopies and you have the Paris version. A beautiful representation of how far things came from 1971 to 1992 and an example of how good Orlando's could look if it were given the open air treatment instead of flooded aircraft hanger.
Okay, I know some people may not like what I'm about to suggestion, but here I go...

They should replace IASW with another dark ride and build the DL version (with improvements and additions) at the entrance of World Showcase, or maybe use the Imagination space and use it as a transition from FW to WS (with IASW as it's anchor)...
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
7. Stlyle over substance argument. Even if one feels all the attractions are duds, at the very least there will exist a rich, well-executed new environment to explore - and that can be an attraction (e.g., DisneySea's Cape Cod).
One of my biggest issues with New Fantasyland is that I do not see a land that can really be explored. So much of it seems removed and separated. The audience can passively observe from a distance, not actually enter.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
No it wasn't going to be a complete clone, but, if you listen to it again you will hear him specifically say that some of the things "in Florida" will be the same as Disneyland. Just not all of them. I don't know anymore then you do what exactly he was thinking, but a couple that come to mind would be the Castle, The Carousel, The Teacups, Autotopia, Monorails, Trains, Main Street and I'm sure that there were others. All the same, almost clones, but not quite.
Unique stuff were going to be castle (there's disagreement on this here), Big Thunder Mesa, the space port concept that evolved into Space Mountain, the three unique Fantasyland dark rides, 2KLUtS, Liberty Square, etc. Some of these were planned to open later on (Thunder Mesa and the space port), but were penciled in with the plan.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Unique stuff were going to be castle (there's disagreement on this here), Big Thunder Mesa, the space port concept that evolved into Space Mountain, the three unique Fantasyland dark rides, 2KLUtS, Liberty Square, etc. Some of these were planned to open later on (Thunder Mesa and the space port), but were penciled in with the plan.
None of the new projects originally conceived for the Magic Kingdom predate Walt's passing. Those that do date to his lifetime were intended for elsewhere, such as Disneyland (Space Port, Liberty Street) or Mineral King (Country Bear Jamboree).
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Unique stuff were going to be castle (there's disagreement on this here), Big Thunder Mesa, the space port concept that evolved into Space Mountain, the three unique Fantasyland dark rides, 2KLUtS, Liberty Square, etc. Some of these were planned to open later on (Thunder Mesa and the space port), but were penciled in with the plan.
I guess my point is that we do not know what Walt knew was planned before he died. Since WDW was opened 6 years after his death, there is no telling how many things are or were different from the original plans the Walt might have at least seen. All pure speculation. I prefer to go with his exact words which to me imply that even though not all was going to be exact, there would be many things that were fairly close to the original.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
I guess my point is that we do not know what Walt knew was planned before he died. Since WDW was opened 6 years after his death, there is no telling how many things are or were different from the original plans the Walt might have at least seen. All pure speculation. I prefer to go with his exact words which to me imply that even though not all was going to be exact, there would be many things that were fairly close to the original.
Remember, after a period of mourning his brother's death, Roy made the decision to press on with all Phase One projects, exactly as a continuation from where Walt left off from. The only difference was that all projects outside of Phase One (namely EPCOT) were to be shelved for a future CEO to take on. Between the time of Walt's death and Roy's decisions to press ahead with Phase One, the Imagineers matured their designs for the MK, but the work had begun while Walt was alive.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
There is someone here, a member on this site, who knows because he was there, working for Disney (as an Imagineer) at the time. You know who I'm talking about... Any one care to summons him here (to this thread) and ask?
 

jdmdisney99

Well-Known Member
That is somewhat correct, but, if you really listen to that press conference, it seems quite clear that he knew that they both needed to exist to get the project to work. He concentrated on the EPCOT portion and left his trusted imagineers to design MK, tourist Hotels and Golf Courses. If I remember correctly EPCOT was not even mentioned by name. It was referred to as the Florida Project. He only focused on MK and said that some of the stuff that was in DL would also be in MK, but, that they had many ideas and planned to create some of them in Florida. Whether or not he meant MK or EPCOT is something that we will never know. He needed MK to pay the bills to build EPCOT. I think that the creation of EPCOT would have followed, almost immediately, the creation of MK.
That was just the beancounters talking. ;)
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
One of my biggest issues with New Fantasyland is that I do not see a land that can really be explored. So much of it seems removed and separated. The audience can passively observe from a distance, not actually enter.

I don't see it that way. Virtually everything you can see in NFL, you can go closer, or inside, and look around. The interiors of the shops, dining facilities and queues all advance the storybook themes. And, for the most part, there are rewards in the details (e.g., even the new DVC kiosk, once past the salespeople, is designed to be a prow-sculpters workshop):http://www. easy wdw.com/reports10/rthgx63.jpg
 
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