The New Fantasyland

[tirian]

That's also the vibe I was getting from jt04 and tirian here.... That Walt lay on his deathbed reciting his plans and sketch ideas for Magic Kingdom.

And yet none of those ideas were ever ascribed to Walt by the Disney Legends that revered him, and no sketches prior to 1968 seem to exist of Magic Kingdom park concepts.

It seems very odd to me that if Walt did have specific plans and ideas and concepts for Magic Kingdom in 1966 that they would be expunged from the Disney record and no one has ever mentioned them again.

All of the material I've read about the development of Walt Disney World really doesn't mention planning for Magic Kingdom kicking off until about 1968. Can someone correct that if it is wrong?

I never suggested that. I don't think he really started planning anything except EPCOT before he died. But I do know that the idea he would have let the MK be a lesser-quality DL clone is absolutely false. That wasn't Walt's way; and the Imagineers apparently believed that too, because they put a lot of effort into correcting all of DL's fallacies, from walkways to sightlines.

I know I'm off topic, but I've become tired of seeing the stupid fanboy statements that "Walt didn't care about the MK anyway," as if he were going to focus on EPCOT and let the MK be a roadside carnival.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you at all; like Marni, I'm tired of how this thread's spiraling out of control, and I'm bowing out.

 

[_Scar]

What's so magical about an elephant flying? I see elephants flying all the time.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I never suggested that. I don't think he really started planning anything except EPCOT before he died. But I do know that the idea he would have let the MK be a lesser-quality DL clone is absolutely false. That wasn't Walt's way; and the Imagineers apparently believed that too, because they put a lot of effort into correcting all of DL's fallacies, from walkways to sightlines.

I know I'm off topic, but I've become tired of seeing the stupid fanboy statements that "Walt didn't care about the MK anyway," as if he were going to focus on EPCOT and let the MK be a roadside carnival.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you at all; like Marni, I'm tired of how this thread's spiraling out of control, and I'm bowing out.

Just the fact that it's bigger and had a different castle says something. There are huge differences.


Sorry to see you go.

What's so magical about an elephant flying? I see elephants flying all the time.

 

[_Scar]

I've seen a front porch swing, I've heard a diamond ring.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Just the fact that it's bigger and had a different castle says something. There are huge differences.

At the most, all I can see is that the Imagineers and Roy understood that Walt would not have wanted a duplicate or inferior park. That still does not show evidence of Walt Disney's direct involvement in aspects of the park or that he may have left much of the work to the Imagineers while he focused on EPCOT.

 

[krankenstein]

I've seen a front porch swing, I've heard a diamond ring.

I seen a polka-dot railroad tie

 

[mickeyPSU]

At the most, all I can see is that the Imagineers and Roy understood that Walt would not have wanted a duplicate or inferior park. That still does not show evidence of Walt Disney's direct involvement in aspects of the park or that he may have left much of the work to the Imagineers while he focused on EPCOT.

Long time lurker (since the days when Thrawn and Grizz frequented these here parts), first time poster. I think lazyboy is right. Walt didn't hate the MK. He didn't want the MK to be worse than DL. That's not what anyone is saying. But the MK wasn't his focus. If you've read many biographies on Walt this is pretty obvious.

It also follows the general pattern of his life: he tries something new and "impossible" that no one has ever done before, masters it, gets bored with it, and then moves on to the new bigger and better thing. From animated shorts to talking animated shorts to feature-length animation to promoting studio productions on TV to theme parks to urban planning (with some other things in-between), Walt was always consumed with the next thing. He would still keep his hands in all the other projects going on at the Studios, but he was more of a creative consultant than anything else and would leave most of the hands-on work to his trusted animators/imagineers. His personal attention was always primarily, almost obsessively focused on his latest challenge.

The Bob Thomas bio, which is generally considered the most accurate/authoritative (and every Disney fan should read if you haven't already), even contains a story about Walt flipping out on an Imagineer who was "wasting his time" by discussing improvements to (if I remember it correctly) the WDW Jungle Cruise. Walt basically said something to the effect of "Gosh-darn it, stop talking about that! We already know how to build theme parks! We need to figure out EPCOT!" I don't have the book in front of me to give more specifics (if someone does please chime in), but there are pretty good reasons to believe that MK was not Walt's focus or even on his mind much when planning the FL property.

(Note: I say all this as an East Coaster who loves WDW, grew up going to WDW, and wants WDW to be as glorious as it once was. I'm not a DL fanbois. I just think that lazyboy is undeniably correct here.)

 

[imagineer boy]

This thread really needs to die...

 

[WDW1974]

I'll buy that. Let's just hope TWDC/D23 is "furious" about the plans being leaked, and not that the wrong plans were leaked.

That's exactly what a certain Spirit said a few days ago ...

I doubt very much those are the wrong plans ... maybe not the final plans ... but those ARE the plans in large part.

And no one (except possibly some high level PR folks desperate to get people off the endless negative run of WDW news) likely had any reason to leak this and ________ off many in their own company.

 

[tirian]

Okay, I will jump back in, albeit briefly.

Long time lurker (since the days when Thrawn and Grizz frequented these here parts), first time poster. I think lazyboy is right. Walt didn't hate the MK. He didn't want the MK to be worse than DL. That's not what anyone is saying. But the MK wasn't his focus. If you've read many biographies on Walt this is pretty obvious.

...

(Note: I say all this as an East Coaster who loves WDW, grew up going to WDW, and wants WDW to be as glorious as it once was. I'm not a DL fanbois. I just think that lazyboy is undeniably correct here.)

I agree that no one here thinks Walt would have accepted an inferior version of the MK. My posts reference the general statements I've read online, statements in which fans have erroneously claimed Walt didn't care about the MK and therefore DL should always be better. After reading the conversation in this thread, I decided to pipe up and demonstrate how foolish the fanboy pipe dreams are. Walt was famous for mastering something and moving on, a trait that frustrated his financial board yet contributed to his genius. That doesn't mean he didn't care about the MK, or that he was ignoring the park. EPCOT was simply the Next Big Thing; and just like he didn't have to worry about his animation department anymore, he also didn't have to worry about building another DL (hence the Jungle Cruise comments). EPCOT was rightfully Walt's focus because he'd never done it before.

That's exactly what a certain Spirit said a few days ago ...

I doubt very much those are the wrong plans ... maybe not the final plans ... but those ARE the plans in large part.

And no one (except possibly some high level PR folks desperate to get people off the endless negative run of WDW news) likely had any reason to leak this and ________ off many in their own company.

Final? No. Close enough that the company can't deny them or even say, "No Comment"? Yep.

 

[TP2000]

I agree that no one here thinks Walt would have accepted an inferior version of the MK. My posts reference the general statements I've read online, statements in which fans have erroneously claimed Walt didn't care about the MK and therefore DL should always be better. After reading the conversation in this thread, I decided to pipe up and demonstrate how foolish the fanboy pipe dreams are. Walt was famous for mastering something and moving on, a trait that frustrated his financial board yet contributed to his genius. That doesn't mean he didn't care about the MK, or that he was ignoring the park. EPCOT was simply the Next Big Thing; and just like he didn't have to worry about his animation department anymore, he also didn't have to worry about building another DL (hence the Jungle Cruise comments). EPCOT was rightfully Walt's focus because he'd never done it before.

That's exactly how I feel as well. I could not agree with you more on that. Perfectly said. :sohappy:

If I have the opportunity at the D23 Expo, I would love to ask a knowledgeable person if there exists any Imagineering artwork for the Magic Kingdom that is dated earlier than 1969. Thus far, Disney has never released any artwork from before '69 or ever acknowledged that it exists. It's a fascinating topic however.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

That's exactly what a certain Spirit said a few days ago ...

I doubt very much those are the wrong plans ... maybe not the final plans ... but those ARE the plans in large part.

And no one (except possibly some high level PR folks desperate to get people off the endless negative run of WDW news) likely had any reason to leak this and ________ off many in their own company.

Heh. Fine by me...


....Even if it is D23.:lol:

 

[jt04]

That's exactly how I feel as well. I could not agree with you more on that. Perfectly said. :sohappy:

If I have the opportunity at the D23 Expo, I would love to ask a knowledgeable person if there exists any Imagineering artwork for the Magic Kingdom that is dated earlier than 1969. Thus far, Disney has never released any artwork from before '69 or ever acknowledged that it exists. It's a fascinating topic however.

But no artwork does not mean he had no input. He certainly seems to have inspired the utilidor innovation and also the general placement of the MK. So, for me, it's not about artwork, it's about his ideas for the MK and the rest of WDW. And, also, do any of those ideas still live in the archives. That is what I would ask. And that is specifically what I have been talking about in this thread. It's important to ask these questions while there are still some first generation Imagineers around to answer them.

And since you are going to be at D23 anyway...........:lookaroun :wave:

 

[lazyboy97o]

But no artwork does not mean he had no input. He certainly seems to have inspired the utilidor innovation and also the general placement of the MK. So, for me, it's not about artwork, it's about his ideas for the MK and the rest of WDW. And, also, do any of those ideas still live in the archives. That is what I would ask. And that is specifically what I have been talking about in this thread. It's important to ask these questions while there are still some first generation Imagineers around to answer them.

Walt Disney World opened nearly 40 years ago. Walt Disney died over 40 years ago. The original Imagineers have given many interviews and talks on their work with Walt. This is not information to keep secret for four decades.

 

[jt04]

Walt Disney World opened nearly 40 years ago. Walt Disney died over 40 years ago. The original Imagineers have given many interviews and talks on their work with Walt. This is not information to keep secret for four decades.

So one would think. But it can't hurt to ask. Even if the answer is that Walt never mentioned the Magic Kingdom's plans. That would be very interesting to have confirmed too. Either way, I am sure the answer would be interesting if it comes from someone who was there.

 

[WDW1974]

The first artwork I ever have seen for MK is from 1969. Possibly late '68.

While Walt certainly didn't 'not care' about MK it was viewed as a means to an end ... he didn't like repeating himself and he felt even back then that MK was largely a bigger DL-clone. From many Disney Legends, historians and Imagineers I've talked to, I've never gotten the sense that Walt had any real hand in MK beyond its location and the most basics ... it'll be like DL.

Indeed, it was Roy who pulled the idea for unique F-Land dark rides to go with what worked at DL. And it was Card Walker who killed WRE when the Arab oil embargo hit while folks wanted Pirates. So much of what would have made it much different left.

 

[MiklCraw4d]

I've definitely seen MK stuff from 1968; I'll have to check my 1967 AP to see what the status was then..

 

[TP2000]

I've definitely seen MK stuff from 1968; I'll have to check my 1967 AP to see what the status was then..

Ooh, good idea on checking the Annual Shareholders Reports from '67 and '68! That would be a really good place to find something, or even a hint of a mention of planning for a second Disneyland-style theme park in Florida. Let us know what you can find. :wave:

 

[_Scar]

I guess I'll be the one to say this first, so here goes...


Who cares? That was over 40 years ago. For a thread talking about expanding and bringing something new to the MK all you guys want to talk about is Walt's plans for the MK which may or may not exist. I like these plans better :ROFLOL:.

 

[IWant2GoNow]

I guess I'll be the one to say this first, so here goes...


Who cares? That was over 40 years ago. For a thread talking about expanding and bringing something new to the MK all you guys want to talk about is Walt's plans for the MK which may or may not exist. I like these plans better :ROFLOL:.

Even if it was something in an old plan, wouldn't it still be new to us? I'd love to see if there were any old plans. If Walt had something up his sleeve that has just been lying dormant for all these years and they were to think about constructing his vision, I would feel better about WDW and would hope that meant they are getting back to Disney's roots.

Or am I just nuts? :shrug: