The New Fantasyland

[_Scar]

I always got the idea that Walt didn't really care about a brand new Disneyland 2.0, but instead just recreating it for Florida to rake in money for Epcot.

 

[jt04]

I always got the idea that Walt didn't really care about a brand new Disneyland 2.0, but instead just recreating it for Florida to rake in money for Epcot.

That would run counter to everything we know about him. He was rather detailed oriented it seems.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I always got the idea that Walt didn't really care about a brand new Disneyland 2.0, but instead just recreating it for Florida to rake in money for Epcot.

Trust me, Walt wasn't the kind to just clone DL. He knew DL had it's problems (Utilidors!) and MK was going to be his place to correct them.

Once again, the crown jewel argument pops up. DL might always be the original, and the flagship park, but The Magic Kingdom in Walt's new "Disneyworld" was always destined to be somethings special.

 

[magicmaya]

Trust me, Walt wasn't the kind to just clone DL. He knew DL had it's problems (Utilidors!) and MK was going to be his place to correct them.

Once again, the crown jewel argument pops up. DL might always be the original, and the flagship park, but The Magic Kingdom in Walt's new "Disneyworld" was always destined to be somethings special.

Disneyland has those "magical doors" :ROFLOL:

 

[jt04]

Trust me, Walt wasn't the kind to just clone DL. He knew DL had it's problems (Utilidors!) and MK was going to be his place to correct them.

Once again, the crown jewel argument pops up. DL might always be the original, and the flagship park, but The Magic Kingdom in Walt's new "Disneyworld" was always destined to be somethings special.

I agree.

Do you know if the utilidors were his idea?

 

[_Scar]

That would run counter to everything we know about him. He was rather detailed oriented it seems.

I admit, I've never really got into learning about Walt Disney himself, but I've been reading Realityland (I've seen it around a lot and finally picked it up at the library) and it makes it seem as though Walt just wanted Epcot and to raise this money for the city of tom. he needed Disneyland 2.0 . But I'm sure if you guys all disagree I might question that book.... lol :shrug:

 

[janoimagine]

I always got the idea that Walt didn't really care about a brand new Disneyland 2.0, but instead just recreating it for Florida to rake in money for Epcot.

I don't think so ... everything I have read about the concept Walt had about WDW stemmed from his dislike of the urban sprawl that had popped up all around Disneyland. He thought it ruined the illusion of fantasy. Epcot was a big part of his Florida plan, however as we all know, the true Epcot died with Walt, what we have is a very loose interpretation of his original idea.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Walt hated to repeat himself. The idea that the MK would have been a carbon copy of DL is extremely faulty. Common sense dictates that the cut-and-pasted map of DL was used because it was the easiest thing to do for the television program, not because it was really going to be identical.

This is a man who had no problem announcing projects that never did happen at Disneyland. I cannot recall ever seeing mention that The EPCOT Film was intended for the Wonderful World of Color. He may have been rushing because he was concerned about his health, but drawing a map that large was no easy task. If he was working on the theme park, he would have mentioned something. There are several possible plans for EPCOT, but all the Magic Kingdom has is that one plan which is a duplicate of Disneyland.

Walt would never allow a half-finished product to go out to the public, meaning the DL-fanboy pipe dream that he didn't care about the MK is 100% false. Yes, it's true that EPCOT was Walt's true passion for the Florida Project, but he had already been considering an East-Coast DL for years. Since he hated to repeat himself ("No more pigs" = "No more sequels"), he decided to make something even more exciting than another DL clone, which brings us to our final...

Several Imagineers have confirmed that WDW was to be Walt's crowning triumph, and they constantly looked for ways to out-do the original California park. Why would the group of artists, engineers, architects, and city planners be content to let a past success be the only "true" one, and just crap out an inferior version later? From the bigger castle and Main Street to the waterways, the improved FL (it was better than DL's at the time WDW opened) to the plans for Wester River Expedition, the Imagineers clearly felt that Walt wanted the new MK to be better. All this was in addition to the city EPCOT.

I know this has nothing to do with the OP, and I know EPCOT was Walt's primary passion for the Florida Project, but I also hate seeing people spout faulty Internet fanboy nonsense that Walt didn't care about the MK itself.

Walt had a history that lends to the idea that while he was not going to just duplicate Disneyland, he was not going to be as actively involved in its development. He would have handed it off to his trusted artists and then approved of their work. He did it with the shorts. He did it with the features. Why would he not do it for the second theme park when he had moved on to EPCOT?

That might also be at his request. I hope you get to ask the question because it is always something I've wondered about. Just how much of the MK design did Walt see and contribute to? He certainly seems to have has a good idea on where it would be located on the massive piece of property. That is a starting point. And a piece of artwork, it could be said, beyond just being a sketch.

Are you really suggesting that out of the entirety of his work, for some bizarre reason Walt Disney wanted his specific ideas for the Magic Kingdom kept secret?

The Magic Kingdom was built where Walt Disney placed it. That is a general idea, not a very specific one like you are trying to infer. The theme park area sat at the end of the monorail line. Guests boarding at the airport of the future would have to travel through the industrial park and EPCOT before getting to park area.

 

[jt04]

I admit, I've never really got into learning about Walt Disney himself, but I've been reading Realityland (I've seen it around a lot and finally picked it up at the library) and it makes it seem as though Walt just wanted Epcot and to raise this money for the city of tom. he needed Disneyland 2.0 . But I'm sure if you guys all disagree I might question that book.... lol :shrug:

Certain elements in our society get rewarded for tearing down great Americans. Especially visionaries of industry and the founders. Walt had/has enemies so you have to take everything you hear and weigh it against the possibility it was produced out of malice. It's shameful but it is almost an industry these days.

That is why the family is opening it's own museum. Even TWDC has sometimes not been a good steward of Walt's legacy.

 

[janoimagine]

I admit, I've never really got into learning about Walt Disney himself, but I've been reading Realityland (I've seen it around a lot and finally picked it up at the library) and it makes it seem as though Walt just wanted Epcot and to raise this money for the city of tom. he needed Disneyland 2.0 . But I'm sure if you guys all disagree I might question that book.... lol :shrug:

It's interesting you mention 'Realityland'. I just finished the book myself and I didn't get that impression at all. What chapter if you don't mind me asking gave you that impression?

 

[janoimagine]

Even TWDC has sometimes not been a good steward of Walt's legacy.

For example the current state of WDW's Main Street, the general lack of maintenance in the parks, and the actions of some of the company's current executives.

 

[jt04]

This is a man who had no problem announcing projects that never did happen at Disneyland. I cannot recall ever seeing mention that The EPCOT Film was intended for the Wonderful World of Color. He may have been rushing because he was concerned about his health, but drawing a map that large was no easy task. If he was working on the theme park, he would have mentioned something. There are several possible plans for EPCOT, but all the Magic Kingdom has is that one plan which is a duplicate of Disneyland.



Walt had a history that lends to the idea that while he was not going to just duplicate Disneyland, he was not going to be as actively involved in its development. He would have handed it off to his trusted artists and then approved of their work. He did it with the shorts. He did it with the features. Why would he not do it for the second theme park when he had moved on to EPCOT?


Are you really suggesting that out of the entirety of his work, for some bizarre reason Walt Disney wanted his specific ideas for the Magic Kingdom kept secret?

The Magic Kingdom was built where Walt Disney placed it. That is a general idea, not a very specific one like you are trying to infer. The theme park area sat at the end of the monorail line. Guests boarding at the airport of the future would have to travel through the industrial park and EPCOT before getting to park area.

I'm thinking he did not want to be seen as "hovering" over a project that he would not be directly building. He had to know that he would not be involved with the great majority of WDW. He wanted his signature on EPCOT it seems. It appears he wanted that to be his legacy.




...

 

[jt04]

For example the current state of WDW's Main Street, the general lack of maintenance in the parks, and the actions of some of the company's current executives.

Don't give past executives a pass.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Certain elements in our society get rewarded for tearing down great Americans. Especially visionaries of industry and the founders. Walt had/has enemies so you have to take everything you hear and weigh it against the possibility it was produced out of malice. It's shameful but it is almost an industry these days.

That is why the family is opening it's own museum. Even TWDC has sometimes not been a good steward of Walt's legacy.

Realityland is not Hollywood's Dark Prince. I just have a hard time putting David Koenig in the category of trying to create malice towards Walt Disney.

Trust me, Walt wasn't the kind to just clone DL. He knew DL had it's problems (Utilidors!) and MK was going to be his place to correct them.

Once again, the crown jewel argument pops up. DL might always be the original, and the flagship park, but The Magic Kingdom in Walt's new "Disneyworld" was always destined to be somethings special.

When you look at Walt's history of direct involvement, I just see the reality being that he would have left a lot of the theme park to his best Imagineers. I would say Walt was right to trust them, because they did go on to create the Magic Kingdom, its resorts and recreation facilities.

 

[jt04]

Realityland is not Hollywood's Dark Prince. I just have a hard time putting David Koenig in the category of trying to create malice towards Walt Disney.

Didn't the family have a problem with both books and others?


.

...

 

[janoimagine]

Don't give past executives a pass.

Oh believe me I'm not, however their is definitely a substantial difference between those of the past (meaning Walt's era), and those of today.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Didn't the family have a problem with both books and others?

Well, the Disney family having issues with Hollywood's Dark Prince seems obvious, but I cannot cite examples. I am not aware of any regarding Realityland, but they may exist. It is about Walt Disney World and the bulk of its focus is all on events that took place after December 1966.

 

[_Scar]

It's interesting you mention 'Realityland'. I just finished the book myself and I didn't get that impression at all. What chapter if you don't mind me asking gave you that impression?

Somewhere in chapter 2

 

[TP2000]

Are you really suggesting that out of the entirety of his work, for some bizarre reason Walt Disney wanted his specific ideas for the Magic Kingdom kept secret?

That's also the vibe I was getting from jt04 and tirian here.... That Walt lay on his deathbed reciting his plans and sketch ideas for Magic Kingdom.

And yet none of those ideas were ever ascribed to Walt by the Disney Legends that revered him, and no sketches prior to 1968 seem to exist of Magic Kingdom park concepts.

It seems very odd to me that if Walt did have specific plans and ideas and concepts for Magic Kingdom in 1966 that they would be expunged from the Disney record and no one has ever mentioned them again.

All of the material I've read about the development of Walt Disney World really doesn't mention planning for Magic Kingdom kicking off until about 1968. Can someone correct that if it is wrong?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Disneyland has those "magical doors" :ROFLOL:

And Cowboys in Tomorrowland.:lol:

I agree.

Do you know if the utilidors were his idea?

I know he wanted a way for underground passage of characters, yes.

For example the current state of WDW's Main Street, the general lack of maintenance in the parks, and the actions of some of the company's current executives.

Exactly.

That's also the vibe I was getting from jt04 and tirian here.... That Walt lay on his deathbed reciting his plans and sketch ideas for Magic Kingdom.

And yet none of those ideas were ever ascribed to Walt by the Disney Legends that revered him, and no sketches prior to 1968 seem to exist of Magic Kingdom park concepts.

It seems very odd to me that if Walt did have specific plans and ideas and concepts for Magic Kingdom in 1966 that they would be expunged from the Disney record and no one has ever mentioned them again.

All of the material I've read about the development of Walt Disney World really doesn't mention planning for Magic Kingdom kicking off until about 1968. Can someone correct that if it is wrong?

I don't think he had the exact plans like jt was saying, but I do know there were more than vague ideas. Weren't the plans for HoP around? All of LS in fact?:wave: