The New Fantasyland

[jt04]

that seems to be the conses from what I have read on here by people in the know.

Lee is the consensus. And I mean that in a positive way.

 

[DocMcHulk]

Lee is the consensus. And I mean that in a positive way.

oh I know. I am just saying that if someone wants to try and say he doesnt know what he is talking about, which would be foolish, a bunch of other people have chimed in with a wink and a nod.

 

[Lee]

Have you been told what is on the latest revision? :zipit:

Nope. I can't get anyone to really talk about the one that we have.:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Well, if I knew I was going to have to announce only TLM-AUA, when everyone in the room is expecting Fantasyland 2.0, I'd be a little angry too. :lol:

Well...*hint hint* Annouce the other stuff, too!:lol:

DLPMagic's on your hit list?

:ROFLOL:

The only person getting schooled in this thread is TP2000.



You are confusing Disney fans with Potterites.



As I was saying.

You are the only person in this thread not taking a joke.:lol:

Lot a people getting down on Magic Kingdom and EPCOT round' here...


Pssttttt...You know Studios and Animal Kingdom are a great place to get away from your troubles.

:lookaroun

Prove it.:lookaroun

This is me over here disagreeing.:wave:
I'm told they are quite real, but may not be the most recent revision.

Matches my info. Very nice. Are they much older?

 

[TP2000]

I noticed they don't show much of Fantasyland. Nor did you talk about it.

Perhaps someone found something in the archives?

The picture of WDW circa 1966 shows Disneyland circa 1966, as Fantasyland was being expanded north for the additon of It's A Small World. All of Fantasyland from 1955-66 is there in that picture. It may look like they didn't show "much of it" because there wasn't much there yet.

1966 is when they pushed the train tracks much farther north than they were from 1955 to '65, and that opened up a big piece of property on the north end of Fantasyland, that's what you see in that blank white space on the map. The Disneyland Railroad was closed for an extended time during '65 and '66 to allow for that construction and expansion in Fantasyland and the Primeval World east of Tomorrowland.

 

[jt04]

Fact:

Walt hated to repeat himself. The idea that the MK would have been a carbon copy of DL is extremely faulty. Common sense dictates that the cut-and-pasted map of DL was used because it was the easiest thing to do for the television program, not because it was really going to be identical.


Fact:

Walt would never allow a half-finished product to go out to the public, meaning the DL-fanboy pipe dream that he didn't care about the MK is 100% false. Yes, it's true that EPCOT was Walt's true passion for the Florida Project, but he had already been considering an East-Coast DL for years. Since he hated to repeat himself ("No more pigs" = "No more sequels"), he decided to make something even more exciting than another DL clone, which brings us to our final...


Fact:

Several Imagineers have confirmed that WDW was to be Walt's crowning triumph, and they constantly looked for ways to out-do the original California park. Why would the group of artists, engineers, architects, and city planners be content to let a past success be the only "true" one, and just crap out an inferior version later? From the bigger castle and Main Street to the waterways, the improved FL (it was better than DL's at the time WDW opened) to the plans for Wester River Expedition, the Imagineers clearly felt that Walt wanted the new MK to be better. All this was in addition to the city EPCOT.

I know this has nothing to do with the OP, and I know EPCOT was Walt's primary passion for the Florida Project, but I also hate seeing people spout faulty Internet fanboy nonsense that Walt didn't care about the MK itself.

EDIT:
If Walt were still alive, rolling around like a 100+ year-old, chain-smoking prune, he'd probably have made sure that any subsequent DL parks were better than WDW's MK. Of course, he'd also make sure DL and WDW received regular upgrades and changes. He was always looking for ways to improve things.

The picture of WDW circa 1966 shows Disneyland circa 1966, as Fantasyland was being expanded north for the additon of It's A Small World. All of Fantasyland from 1955-66 is there in that picture. It may look like they didn't show "much of it" because there wasn't much there yet.

1966 is when they pushed the train tracks much farther north than they were from 1955 to '65, and that opened up a big piece of property on the north end of Fantasyland, that's what you see in that blank white space on the map. The Disneyland Railroad was closed for an extended time during '65 and '66 to allow for that construction and expansion in Fantasyland and the Primeval World east of Tomorrowland.

I'm more interested in your response to what Tirian wrote above.

What Tirian stated makes more sense to me. Obviously the picture you provided was for publicity as Disney was concerned about protecting proprietary information even back then.

 

[WDW Vacationer]

This is me over here disagreeing.:wave:
I'm told they are quite real, but may not be the most recent revision.

Is the most recent revision for better or worse?

 

[_Scar]

Is the most recent revision for better or worse?

he said he doesn't know :brick: sucks, doesnt it?

 

[TP2000]

Fact:

Walt hated to repeat himself. The idea that the MK would have been a carbon copy of DL is extremely faulty. Common sense dictates that the cut-and-pasted map of DL was used because it was the easiest thing to do for the television program, not because it was really going to be identical.

Yes, I agree with that completely. Even Walt knew in '66 that Magic Kingdom wouldn't be a Disneyland copy, but his focus in '66 was not yet on the theme park. He had other stuff he felt was more important, and a cut and paste map of Disneyland '66 was good enough in the weeks leading up to his death.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kcOhS_A3t.../W3E9z1fBqx0/s1600-h/WALT%2BDISNEY%2B1965.jpg

Look at that picture! Heck, they hadn't even gotten Bay Lake and the Seven Seas Lagoon in there. None of the resort hotels of 1971 existed. The Magic Kingdom was surrounded by land and 1960's master planned motor inns and hotels on loop roads. And when you watch the entire EPCOT '66 film hosted by Walt, the words he uses to describe the "theme park" are brief and nearly dismissive. It's rather alarming how little attention he payed to the theme park as he rolled out his Florida vision.

The point is that there are other great men who deserve the credit for what WDW and Magic Kingdom was by late 1971, five years after Walt's death. Card Walker, Roy Disney, Richard Nunis, Joe Potter, etc., etc. all created and molded WDW and the Magic Kingdom out of the basic placeholder thoughts and ideas Walt left them with in '66.

But that image above Walt's shoulder is simply Disneyland circa 1966, getting ready to open It's A Small World.

 

[Lee]

he said he doesn't know :brick: sucks, doesnt it?

Yeah...not knowing does suck.:lol:
Info like that is like air to me. I need it, and right now I can't get it.

 

[_Scar]

Yeah...not knowing does suck.:lol:
Info like that is like air to me. I need it, and right now I can't get it.

I'd rather have MI: Ride and Go Seek than the DCA LM clone.... just sayin'. Is MI:RaGS good? The concept sounded amazing for it....

 

[TP2000]

I'm more interested in your response to what Tirian wrote above.

What Tirian stated makes more sense to me. Obviously the picture you provided was for publicity as Disney was concerned about protecting proprietary information even back then.

So it sounds like you believe Walt was secretly working on advanced plans for the Magic Kingdom in 1966 that no one knew about?

And yet none of those plans or concepts or ideas have ever been mentioned or released. Disney fandom has countless books and videos and even entire conventions dedicated to Walt and his creative ideas, and yet nothing has ever been mentioned about specific plans Walt had for his Florida Disneyland park.

And 21st century WDI peddles their previous artwork and ideas that never came to be for parks that were never built in books and videos, and yet no mention of Magic Kingdom plans circa 1965-67, an era Walt would have directly impacted, has ever been released or even hinted at by WDI experts.

On the flip side, we do have pictures and an entire documentary hosted by Walt himself mere weeks before his death laying out his plans for the Florida property. Have you watched the EPCOT '66 film? It's fabulous, and available on DVD now. And that's where we see Disneyland cut and pasted next to master planned tourist facilities and infrastructure that never got built the way it was planned in '66.

When did the first Magic Kingdom park artwork come out? 1969 or so? Is there any artwork released for Magic Kingdom prior to '69? Maybe '68?

 

[_Scar]

So it sounds like you believe Walt was secretly working on advanced plans for the Magic Kingdom in 1966 that no one knew about?

Yes. I think it is true that Walt purchased land through secrecy. Isn't there a ton of evidence?

 

[jt04]

So it sounds like you believe Walt was secretly working on advanced plans for the Magic Kingdom in 1966 that no one knew about?

And yet none of those plans or concepts or ideas have ever been mentioned or released. Disney fandom has countless books and videos and even entire conventions dedicated to Walt and his creative ideas, and yet nothing has ever been mentioned about specific plans Walt had for his Florida Disneyland park.

And 21st century WDI peddles their previous artwork and ideas that never came to be for parks that were never built in books and videos, and yet no mention of Magic Kingdom plans circa 1965-67, an era Walt would have directly impacted, has ever been released or even hinted at by WDI experts.

On the flip side, we do have pictures and an entire documentary hosted by Walt himself mere weeks before his death laying out his plans for the Florida property. Have you watched the EPCOT '66 film? It's fabulous, and available on DVD now. And that's where we see Disneyland cut and pasted next to master planned tourist facilities and infrastructure that never got built the way it was planned in '66.

When did the first Magic Kingdom park artwork come out? 1969 or so? Is there any artwork released for Magic Kingdom prior to '69? Maybe '68?

No, I'm saying that there could have and probably were discussions of concepts. I don't believe there was or is a secret 50, 75, 100 year plan. I think Tirian's response was incredibly thorough and accurate. The "Disneyland" you see in the picture is strictly for show and to protect proprietary info at that time. Even the EPCOT stuff is amazingly undetailed. But I'm sure Walt's concepts behind the scenes and in his imagination were much further along than what is depicted in what is not much more than a glorified publicity photo to maintain the momentum that would be crucial to the Florida Project..

 

[TP2000]

The "Disneyland" you see in the picture is strictly for show and to protect proprietary info at that time. Even the EPCOT stuff is amazingly undetailed. But I'm sure Walt's concepts behind the scenes and in his imagination were much further along than what is depicted in what is not much more than a glorified publicity photo to maintain the momentum that would be crucial to the Florida Project..

Well, then it's a crying shame the Disney Company has never released any of those secret Walt-era sketches or ideas or concepts for the Florida property.

They've released all sorts of images and info about concepts pitched during the 1969-73 time frame, stuff like the Venetian Resort, the Western River Expedition, Space Mountain with outdoor tracks, etc. Disney has had no problem releasing that artwork of killed projects from 1969 onward.

Yet not a peep or hint or even an acknowledgement of what Walt and Roy and his top WDI team (many of whom are still living and attending Disney events) had cooked up for Magic Kingdom during the 1965-67 years.

Can you imagine if those concepts and sketches did still exist, how quickly a lavish hardcover book of them by Hyperion Press would sell??? :lol:

And I ask again, throwing it out there to the broad WDW fan community, has anyone ever seen a piece of Magic Kingdom artwork dated prior to 1968? I haven't, and I don't know that one exists.

 

[_Scar]

Do you think the BatB dinner show would cost some $$$? Like Cinderella's restaurant $$$....

 

[TP2000]

Yes. I think it is true that Walt purchased land through secrecy. Isn't there a ton of evidence?

I'm afraid you are confused. We are talking about plans Walt may have sketched out for Magic Kingdom specifically. The photos Walt used to pitch his Florida Project in 1966 included copies of Disneyland circa 1966 on the northern edge of the property where Magic Kingdom would be five years later.

This picture, among several others... http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kcOhS_A3t.../W3E9z1fBqx0/s1600-h/WALT%2BDISNEY%2B1965.jpg

We are wondering why Walt didn't concern himself with a different plan than Disneyland 2.0 and why none of that artwork or concepts have ever been mentioned or released by Disney or by people who worked for Disney in the 1960's. No mention of such an advanced Magic Kingdom exists until several years after Walt's death in 1966.

 

[jt04]

Well, then it's a crying shame the Disney Company has never released any of those secret Walt-era sketches or ideas or concepts for the Florida property.

They've released all sorts of images and info about concepts pitched during the 1969-73 time frame, stuff like the Venetian Resort, the Western River Expedition, Space Mountain with outdoor tracks, etc. Disney has had no problem releasing that artwork of killed projects from 1969 onward.

Yet not a peep or hint or even an acknowledgement of what Walt and Roy and his top WDI team (many of whom are still living and attending Disney events) had cooked up for Magic Kingdom during the 1965-67 years.

Can you imagine if those concepts and sketches did still exist, how quickly a lavish hardcover book of them by Hyperion Press would sell??? :lol:

And I ask again, throwing it out there to the broad WDW fan community, has anyone ever seen a piece of Magic Kingdom artwork dated prior to 1968? I haven't, and I don't know that one exists.

Perhaps there is nothing more than sketches and long ago discussions. And even the sketches may not exist. But to try to tell us that Walt never had any input or concepts for the Magic Kingdom is inconceivable to me. I'm not trying to diminish the amazing work done by the people after Walt's death. They kept his dream alive. But, I also would be bothered by those who try to diminish Walt's contributions even if they were only ideas.

This is a perfect question for a D23 panel of legendary imagineers. How involved was Walt in conceptualizing the Magic Kingdom or was he totally hands off?

I have a good guess.

 

[TP2000]

This is a perfect question for a D23 panel of legendary imagineers. How involved was Walt in conceptualizing the Magic Kingdom or was he totally hands off?

I have a good guess.

You are right, that would be a great question. Are you going to the D23 Expo? I am!

Thus far, of all of the books and videos and interviews released by Disney for the Disney fan community over the decades, no one has ever mentioned Walt making specific plans and concepts for the Magic Kingdom park.

If there were sketches done for Walt, and if they apparently no longer exist in the Disney archives for some bizarre reason, it would be interesting to hear what Walt's contemporaries knew regarding his plans for the Florida theme park.

Until then, we just have to go with the fact that nothing appears to have been created on Magic Kingdom park plans until several years after Walt's death.

 

[jt04]

You are right, that would be a great question. Are you going to the D23 Expo? I am!

Thus far, of all of the books and videos and interviews released by Disney for the Disney fan community over the decades, no one has ever mentioned Walt making specific plans and concepts for the Magic Kingdom park.

If there were sketches done for Walt, and if they apparently no longer exist in the Disney archives for some bizarre reason, it would be interesting to hear what Walt's contemporaries knew regarding his plans for the Florida theme park.

Until then, we just have to go with the fact that nothing appears to have been created on Magic Kingdom park plans until several years after Walt's death.

That might also be at his request. I hope you get to ask the question because it is always something I've wondered about. Just how much of the MK design did Walt see and contribute to? He certainly seems to have a good idea on where it would be located on the massive piece of property. That is a starting point. And a piece of artwork, it could be said, beyond just being a sketch.