The Muppets Present… Great Moments in American History'

[Tony the Tigger]

...but that doesn't mean the seas conversion to nemo was a bad decision. It fits and pleases the tourists perfectly fine... As will Frozen in Norway. So disney lost a few EPCOT fanboys. Big whoop. Disney is trying to please tourists, not people like YOU personally. The tourists don't give a hoot about culture and trolls, or an edutainment aquarium.. They care about nemo and Elsa.

Tourists don't want to be educated, they want to be entertained. So when they go to DISNEY world they're expecting DISNEY characters.

As much as you classic EPCOT fanboys don't want to admit it, and will argue against it as much as possible.... The average tourist didn't care for the original EPCOT theme park because there were no Disney characters, and simply boring attractions. So Disney realized, eventually, that the park needs characters. Because that's what the tourists want, and that's what will bring in the money.

Frozen won't be a bad ride.. But EPCOT fanboys will beg to differ and say it is. But honestly, who is Disney trying to attract more? Some middle/old age classic EPCOT fanatics, or families with small children.

Frozen won't be bad. Nemo isn't bad. Just because YOU don't like the changes that are happening to EPCOT doesn't make them bad ideas.

I'd like to like this post twice or thrice. LOL.

As much as I seem to have some kind of aversion to the word fanboy (at least you didn't spell it with an 'i' at the end) I completely agree with this entire post, and you were more concise than I.

 

[TalkingHead]

Frozen won't be bad. Nemo isn't bad. Just because YOU don't like the changes that are happening to EPCOT doesn't make them bad ideas.

I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to thematic integrity. What I find offensive is underwhelming entertainment in parks that are designed to impress and entertain.

On that count I think Nemo is a bad attraction. As entertainment it's inoffensive, but worse, it's forgettable.

I suspect the same fate awaits Frozen.

Whatever you think of theme, characters, and Epcot, it's ridiculous that Disney chooses not to build jaw-dropping E-tickets on a regular basis.

That is what tourists are starting to notice. Many people are already equating Universal with cutting-edge rides. Disney used to have that market cornered.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

First off, Junior... I'm only about 9 years older than you...and much younger than the person I was debating with...which, last I checked...wasn't you. You should be careful about how you address "EPCOT fanboys" on here...I would hope I'm correct in saying that we aren't just fans of EPCOT...we're fans (to the extreme disciples) of Disney and fans of Walt Disney the person...and fans of Walt Disney the concept and set of standards. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suppose that you've not taken the time to read these things called "books" or have taken the time to do some research about the legacy of the parks or what the whole story is really about. I'm sure you...as a young whipper snapper, are aware of that newfangled internet thingy? Oh wait...my feeble brain has just remembered that you're on here...

Of course we enjoy the parks...of course we enjoy the "magic of it all" and of course we get uber ticked off when that standard that was set down in '55 gets blown off... that standard, Sonny Jim, is why these parks have lasted this long...I'm keenly aware of the cheap expectations of tourists and for me, the only saving grace in this poorly placed Norway "revamp" is that enough snot nosed, screaming little brats, will want to see "Anna and Elsa" and their little deformed snowman friend long enough for their parents to spend money at EPCOT so that the rest of the park might get some financial love from the Weatherman and his house of ill-repute. Maybe THEN we can get back to the beautiful, thoughtful, and optimistic park that was EPCOT.

As for my snark...it is toward the whole of the parks, and company...not just Epcot...and there are plenty on this forum just like me...in fact, you might learn a thing or two from the best of them here. They are a resource...and a valuable one at that.

And the Nemo overlay does SUCK. It was cheap, dirty, and could have been so much more...and I'll give Norway a shot...as soon as they move the POS to Magic Kingdom where it belongs... Which of course, will never happen...so...I guess it's on to waiting for 20 years for it to be demolished. Of course, by then we'll have 5 friggin' sequels...and kids on Anna and Elsa hoverboards... It's not the ideas my friend...it's the execution...

Don't be a sheep. And watch it with that "old man" treatment you're giving me...there's some awesome members on here that are your age and just a hair older who are the same kind of fan I am...remember that you are standing boots deep in "EPCOT fan boys"...

I would pick that mic up because when you drop it after a mediocre speech, it doesn't have the desired effect.

The way you just presented yourself is exactly what I never want to be. You are suggesting we learn from people like you? Seriously?

You are self-appointed Disneyphile snobs with nothing to back yourselves up but your little clique of opinionated, anonymous, bully-lite pals in a Fox-news like echo-chamber of self-congratulatory back slapping.

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

But it's time to grow up and realize you chose Disney, Disney didn't choose you.

Disney has no obligation to please you, or to remain faithful to you or your ideals of what Disney should be.

There are objective criticisms to be made if there are slips in cleanliness, maintenance, guest services, or if they started replacing E-ticket rides with sliding boards and those little horses on springs.

But, as I have told my own employees, right or wrong is only relevant in the sense of what I think is right or wrong. If you work for Walgreens, and Mr. Walgreen (if there is one) comes up and tells you to pull all boxes on shelves forward at night, and you tell him he is wrong - guess what? You're out. He's right, because it's his company. Even if you think customers like it better with the boxes pushed back. Now, if the customers bear out that he was wrong and business goes down, then he will change/adapt or suffer.

If the consequences are that 10 customers hate it and go to CVS instead, but overall business increases, then that's OK. That's a win for the company, even if it loses a few people, as long as it is a net gain.

And chances are 5 of those 10 customers will come back and learn to live with it when they find out CVS charges more for their prescriptions.

There is no doubt in my mind there will be 7DMT-type lines for Frozen in Norway for at least as long as there has been for 7DMT.

There will be a much, much smaller percentage of guests who will never go to Frozen in Norway, and an infinitesimal number of guests who won't go back to WDW at all.

This is simple math.

The only thing that could go wrong is if the new ride itself actually sucks - not that the theme is out of place, but that the ride itself is lame.

Otherwise, those of you who are making a bigger deal than is warranted about changes Disney makes are just shouting into the wind. Nothing you can say will matter. You can choose to be bitter about it and sound like little crankypants, or you can choose to be optimistic about it and give it a fair shot without sneering.

Walt didn't choose theming over money. He didn't have time to even cross that bridge. We can think, idealistically, that he would have put some ideals of perfection above the almighty dollar, but frankly - I've seen the movies and the documentaries. Walt, as much as he loved kids and what not, he very much wanted to make a name for himself and to make money. So we don't know what he would have done.

I saw the Living Seas before Nemo and it was fine. I saw the Living Seas with Nemo and thought it was better. I never had a negative thought about it. I never thought something had been taken away. I thought, "Wow, look, they still put effort into these things, and we like Nemo, so..."

If I want to focus on the aquarium, I'll go to Miami SeaQuarium and save a bundle. Or I'll go to the Atlanta aquarium (again) which puts Disney to shame.

When I'm at WDW, I'm thinking, "That's nice, but I can see aquariums anywhere." We spend a good amount of time in there. (Watch a shark go after a fish in front of children LOL.) But really, I want something special only Disney can provide. And there are comparable or better aquariums and zoos.

Snark and arrogance are valuable resources? What is this, opposite world?

I prefer optimism, reality, humility. I don't have to hunt for every inconsistency to impress people with my vast knowledge of Disneyana.

Walt is gone. "The standard" is unrealistic, just like Apple is not going to be the same after a while has passed without Steve Jobs.

Hell, I can't even get people to work up to my standards in my little record store. When I'm gone, it's done for.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to thematic integrity. What I find offensive is underwhelming entertainment in parks that are designed to impress and entertain.

On that count I think Nemo is a bad attraction. As entertainment it's inoffensive, but worse, it's forgettable.

I suspect the same fate awaits Frozen.

Whatever you think of theme, characters, and Epcot, it's ridiculous that Disney chooses not to build jaw-dropping E-tickets on a regular basis.

That is what tourists are starting to notice. Many people are already equating Universal with cutting-edge rides. Disney used to have that market cornered.

I tend to agree with this especially as it relates to "New Fantasyland." Kind of a big yawn. But I don't go on fan sites to cry about it all day. I just skip it and enjoy a glass of wine at BoG.

Not every attraction is meant to hit the spot for every parkgoer. I'm guessing the Nemo ride is just the right speed for some folks. My DH happens to like Nemo, and it's one of the first movies we watched together over 10 years ago, so there's something special about going on that ride. We also like aquariums.

But you're right, in general, I wouldn't mind more "wow factor."

Except I second-guess myself on that for this reason: on my first visit, I wasn't "oh my God" about too many individual rides. It was the overall experience. It wasn't until afterwards, when I realized I wanted to go back, that I started to get the "magic" (or hypnotism? LOL) that I don't seem to get from New Fantasyland (yet.) I think I would have appreciated 7DMT better with a little more "dark ride" and a little less "coaster." And I think that's a fair, unhysterical criticism which may not resonate with everyone. I'm sure some would like it to be more coaster.

Why was the arguably "dinky" Snow White ride able to deliver more charm than 7DMT (to me?)

Regardless, as I'm suddenly aware of the topic again, I can't find the energy to be offended by a Muppet intro to HoP.

I think those who do should thank their lucky stars they don't have real problems to worry about.

 

[Herbie]

 

[Sped2424]

Which ride has been ruined? Other than the presumably temporary foot-washing at Pirates?

Norway, Nemo, Figment, Universe, Spaces current condition, stitch to name a few

 

[Sped2424]

Sorry, I'm not allowed to point out that you completely misrepresented what was being reported as possibly happening?

Oh totally but the way you go about it and handle yourself with others is a different issue that seems to keep repeating itself. But to each their own

 

[wdwfan4ver]

Which ride has been ruined? Other than the presumably temporary foot-washing at Pirates?

Journey into Imagination. If that ride wasn't ruined, how do you explained the 2nd version of the ride only last 2 years before being replaced by a third?

The fact is the 3rd version of the ride isn't as bad as the 2nd version, the 1st version is the best and its not nostalgia either.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Norway, Nemo, Figment, Universe, Spaces current condition, stitch to name a few

Journey into Imagination. If that ride wasn't ruined, how do you explained the 2nd version of the ride only last 2 years before being replaced by a third?

The fact is the 3rd version of the ride isn't as bad as the 2nd version, the 1st version is the best and its not nostalgia either.

Objectively, I can't say Norway was ruined until I see it. Maelstrom was cute, not brilliant. It was the best ride in World Showcase (ha!) but replacing the unnamed characters with characters from Frozen won't ruin it. Something else sucky could ruin it.

Nemo was not ruined IMO and unless the populous at large skips it, I don't see how you can say it was ruined. I think that's different than saying you preferred it the old way, which is a perfectly legit statement.

Honestly, I don't remember anything about Figment or Journey into Imagination. Maybe it was before my time. First visit was 1999. Tried to cram everything into 4 days leading up to NYE lol. It was freezing, and the parks were closing by 11AM if you didn't get in. We did marathon days. I definitely don't remember everything, except I hated Honey I Shrunk... and couldn't handle Star Tours (to my great chagrin as a huge Star Wars fan.) I've developed a low tolerance for dizziness. The point being, I'll take all your word for it on Figment, especially since that seems to be a widespread sentiment.

I definitely remember being bored by some indoor "educational" stuff at Epcot. Then again, I was bored with school my entire life, despite being always on the honor roll. Sitting there was torture.

As far as what is being referenced about how I relate to people: I'm from NJ. I'm Italian. I speak the truth, and I speak from the heart. I don't tend to start with anyone unless they come off as having an attitude like they think who the hell they are. I don't think most people earn that attitude. Phoniness and people trying to act more important than they are will sometimes get me to try to put them back into their place. I have no such need to feel important or special. Or if I see people picking on newbies or anyone, really, I may jump in to defend them. We are who we are, nobody is better than anybody else, certainly not for our knowledge or lack of knowledge about Disney lore, and I'm truly blown away by how seriously some people take this. It's fan chat, is all.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

I would pick that mic up because when you drop it after a mediocre speech, it doesn't have the desired effect.

The way you just presented yourself is exactly what I never want to be. You are suggesting we learn from people like you? Seriously?

You are self-appointed Disneyphile snobs with nothing to back yourselves up but your little clique of opinionated, anonymous, bully-lite pals in a Fox-news like echo-chamber of self-congratulatory back slapping.

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

But it's time to grow up and realize you chose Disney, Disney didn't choose you.

Disney has no obligation to please you, or to remain faithful to you or your ideals of what Disney should be.

There are objective criticisms to be made if there are slips in cleanliness, maintenance, guest services, or if they started replacing E-ticket rides with sliding boards and those little horses on springs.

But, as I have told my own employees, right or wrong is only relevant in the sense of what I think is right or wrong. If you work for Walgreens, and Mr. Walgreen (if there is one) comes up and tells you to pull all boxes on shelves forward at night, and you tell him he is wrong - guess what? You're out. He's right, because it's his company. Even if you think customers like it better with the boxes pushed back. Now, if the customers bear out that he was wrong and business goes down, then he will change/adapt or suffer.

If the consequences are that 10 customers hate it and go to CVS instead, but overall business increases, then that's OK. That's a win for the company, even if it loses a few people, as long as it is a net gain.

And chances are 5 of those 10 customers will come back and learn to live with it when they find out CVS charges more for their prescriptions.

There is no doubt in my mind there will be 7DMT-type lines for Frozen in Norway for at least as long as there has been for 7DMT.

There will be a much, much smaller percentage of guests who will never go to Frozen in Norway, and an infinitesimal number of guests who won't go back to WDW at all.

This is simple math.

The only thing that could go wrong is if the new ride itself actually sucks - not that the theme is out of place, but that the ride itself is lame.

Otherwise, those of you who are making a bigger deal than is warranted about changes Disney makes are just shouting into the wind. Nothing you can say will matter. You can choose to be bitter about it and sound like little crankypants, or you can choose to be optimistic about it and give it a fair shot without sneering.

Walt didn't choose theming over money. He didn't have time to even cross that bridge. We can think, idealistically, that he would have put some ideals of perfection above the almighty dollar, but frankly - I've seen the movies and the documentaries. Walt, as much as he loved kids and what not, he very much wanted to make a name for himself and to make money. So we don't know what he would have done.

I saw the Living Seas before Nemo and it was fine. I saw the Living Seas with Nemo and thought it was better. I never had a negative thought about it. I never thought something had been taken away. I thought, "Wow, look, they still put effort into these things, and we like Nemo, so..."

If I want to focus on the aquarium, I'll go to Miami SeaQuarium and save a bundle. Or I'll go to the Atlanta aquarium (again) which puts Disney to shame.

When I'm at WDW, I'm thinking, "That's nice, but I can see aquariums anywhere." We spend a good amount of time in there. (Watch a shark go after a fish in front of children LOL.) But really, I want something special only Disney can provide. And there are comparable or better aquariums and zoos.

Snark and arrogance are valuable resources? What is this, opposite world?

I prefer optimism, reality, humility. I don't have to hunt for every inconsistency to impress people with my vast knowledge of Disneyana.

Walt is gone. "The standard" is unrealistic, just like Apple is not going to be the same after a while has passed without Steve Jobs.

Hell, I can't even get people to work up to my standards in my little record store. When I'm gone, it's done for.

Allow me to annotate...

I would pick that mic up because when you drop it after a mediocre speech, it doesn't have the desired effect.

Sure...I'll pick it up...and I'll tell you what you can do with it too...


The way you just presented yourself is exactly what I never want to be. You are suggesting we learn from people like you? Seriously?

Could be worse...I could be a glutton for forum punishment who is unaware as to when to just stop.

You are self-appointed Disneyphile snobs with nothing to back yourselves up but your little clique of opinionated, anonymous, bully-lite pals in a Fox-news like echo-chamber of self-congratulatory back slapping.

We're not snobs...far from it...but if we see someone who is let's say...a bozo..we call 'em out. And for that matter there is plenty to back the rhetoric up. Try Google. Read the countless numbers of blogs with GOOD argments on the subject matter with historical facts, figures, and testimony. And we're not bullies... seriously. What is this...a schoolyard? And Fox news...please don't stoop to that level of insult...

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

Actually, that would be a Viacom style as the movie was distributed by Paramount. And I'm hardly a ginger... and... you... used that reference...? See something new every day!

But it's time to grow up and realize you chose Disney, Disney didn't choose you.

Wrong. Just wrong. On my own part, I came to Disney as part of a school trip...it sucked me in...there's something about it that keeps me going...and keeps me hungry for knowledge and history and preserving a very old legacy...something about it speaks to me...if you think that's BS...then good for you...I was well past the age of Fairy tales and cutesy stuff...it was design, it was theming, it was atmosphere...


Disney has no obligation to please you, or to remain faithful to you or your ideals of what Disney should be.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Anyone who subscribes to their product...has a say...has a right to be pleased...can walk away if they're so gutless...can buy stock...and if you can buy enough stock...hold Mr. Iger's leash. I can't afford that kinda stock...so I'll keep the fires burning...

There are objective criticisms to be made if there are slips in cleanliness, maintenance, guest services, or if they started replacing E-ticket rides with sliding boards and those little horses on springs.

And...there's all of this...ask around for examples from other users...since you've neglected my little list I made for you earlier...there's several examples of everything you've just said.

But, as I have told my own employees, right or wrong is only relevant in the sense of what I think is right or wrong. If you work for Walgreens, and Mr. Walgreen (if there is one) comes up and tells you to pull all boxes on shelves forward at night, and you tell him he is wrong - guess what? You're out. He's right, because it's his company. Even if you think customers like it better with the boxes pushed back. Now, if the customers bear out that he was wrong and business goes down, then he will change/adapt or suffer.

That analogy is hard to read...and doesn't hold much water...obviously this forum isn't ran by Disney...and I'm certainly not getting paid for any of this any more than you are...so...nah.

If the consequences are that 10 customers hate it and go to CVS instead, but overall business increases, then that's OK. That's a win for the company, even if it loses a few people, as long as it is a net gain.

That mindset is part of what fuels these arguments...I realize that you cannot please everyone...and I know it's a business...but it is woven into Americana and therefore the lines blur...and there is truth in what you've said...but that concept needs to be toned down a lot...

And chances are 5 of those 10 customers will come back and learn to live with it when they find out CVS charges more for their prescriptions.

Sure. I understand this...that's why I'll still shell out the dough to go visit Disney World/Disneyland even though I disapprove of some of this stuff...but...I still won't set foot in the Studios for the same price..and that's one person out of millions...but...again...this is a forum. This is a place for discussion and debate...

There is no doubt in my mind there will be 7DMT-type lines for Frozen in Norway for at least as long as there has been for 7DMT.

I'm sure there will be too...and honestly...I've made mention that my only good feeling about the whole mess is that it'll pull in money and make the suits cough up some much-needed dough for Epcot. But I'm also sure the lines will annoy me and disrupt the flow of World Showcase...and be a major pain in everyone's backside for at least the first year...

There will be a much, much smaller percentage of guests who will never go to Frozen in Norway, and an infinitesimal number of guests who won't go back to WDW at all.

And?

This is simple math.

And?

The only thing that could go wrong is if the new ride itself actually sucks - not that the theme is out of place, but that the ride itself is lame.

Ha! There's a record number of screw ups on another Epcot classic...have a gander...I suggest one of Marni's vids on Journey Into Imagination...it's not an impossibility...and I'm sure they'll try to bandage it...badly...cheaply...

Otherwise, those of you who are making a bigger deal than is warranted about changes Disney makes are just shouting into the wind. Nothing you can say will matter. You can choose to be bitter about it and sound like little crankypants, or you can choose to be optimistic about it and give it a fair shot without sneering.

And by this point you're talking to a group of people and not just me...And we'll choose to be bitter...you can bet money on that...and it'll get it's fair shot...there's not many "fanboys" who'll pass up a chance to see if it has been worth it. We're as curious as you are... however, I'll tell YOU now that you're shouting into the wind...nothing you've posted will matter either...in fact...I'm rather annoyed by this point...you're beyond reasoning...and I'm sure its the same to many others as far as this discussion goes...

Walt didn't choose theming over money. He didn't have time to even cross that bridge. We can think, idealistically, that he would have put some ideals of perfection above the almighty dollar, but frankly - I've seen the movies and the documentaries. Walt, as much as he loved kids and what not, he very much wanted to make a name for himself and to make money. So we don't know what he would have done.

Examples? The guy pushed the bar as far as he could get Roy to help him push it. He was an innovator and changed the face of entertainment...and it wasn't necessarily all about the money to him either...if I remember some of the same documentaries and books...he often re-invested a lot of what he made...but you can bet your boots he would have built a city and not a theme park called Epcot...so...that point is kinda dead...

I saw the Living Seas before Nemo and it was fine. I saw the Living Seas with Nemo and thought it was better. I never had a negative thought about it. I never thought something had been taken away. I thought, "Wow, look, they still put effort into these things, and we like Nemo, so..."

Okay...I rode it and thought..."Cheap". I thought...this is a crappy rip-off of the Submarines at Disneyland...and it's not even well done...do you realize that the underwater theming is BETTER on the Little Mermaid attraction? For that matter...I'd have loved to see something where Mr. Ray taught us something about the Seas...and they could have used their little cartoons to their heart's content...but no...it was since we don't have any integrity, how fast and how dirty can we wedge something we've already built into this old pavilion that we don't care about?

If I want to focus on the aquarium, I'll go to Miami SeaQuarium and save a bundle. Or I'll go to the Atlanta aquarium (again) which puts Disney to shame.

Ok. Fine. And?

When I'm at WDW, I'm thinking, "That's nice, but I can see aquariums anywhere." We spend a good amount of time in there. (Watch a shark go after a fish in front of children LOL.) But really, I want something special only Disney can provide. And there are comparable or better aquariums and zoos.

Sure. But this is about Disney's aquarium..this is a Disney discussion? The aquarium is a part of the cheap Nemo overlay right? Right. The aquarium doesn't concern me.

Snark and arrogance are valuable resources? What is this, opposite world?

No...don't twist crap around...there are people who are completely objective, knowledgeable, and sure... highly snarky...and they are valuable resources. I cannot express to you in words how much I've learned from them.

I prefer optimism, reality, humility. I don't have to hunt for every inconsistency to impress people with my vast knowledge of Disneyana.

And you assume I do?...I was just swimming along minding my own business and I spotted a Bozo fish...had to spear it. and it wouldn't die!

Walt is gone. "The standard" is unrealistic, just like Apple is not going to be the same after a while has passed without Steve Jobs.

To half-a**ed quote Harry Potter...Walt Disney is never truly gone as long as there are those who are loyal to him...

And I'd go a step further and say...keep his fire burning...and NO that standard is not unrealistic...it is legendary...and it still is there...whether or not they can measure up is only subject to time and leadership.

Hell, I can't even get people to work up to my standards in my little record store. When I'm gone, it's done for.

Sorry to hear that...it's hard to find good record stores where I come from...ones with decent vinyl in good shape that aren't warped or scratched to hell...


I'm done here. There's no more argument coming from me...just know you're probably out-numbered...and that folks like me aren't out to be unkind or mean...but you will get called out...Mean?...that's definitiely your perception and not everone else's. And I'll tell you right now that I've been knocked on my butt a time or two on here...and I'm better for it. There's plenty of humility here sir...

 

[mouse_luv]

First off, Junior... I'm only about 9 years older than you...and much younger than the person I was debating with...which, last I checked...wasn't you. You should be careful about how you address "EPCOT fanboys" on here...I would hope I'm correct in saying that we aren't just fans of EPCOT...we're fans (to the extreme disciples) of Disney and fans of Walt Disney the person...and fans of Walt Disney the concept and set of standards. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suppose that you've not taken the time to read these things called "books" or have taken the time to do some research about the legacy of the parks or what the whole story is really about. I'm sure you...as a young whipper snapper, are aware of that newfangled internet thingy? Oh wait...my feeble brain has just remembered that you're on here...

Of course we enjoy the parks...of course we enjoy the "magic of it all" and of course we get uber ticked off when that standard that was set down in '55 gets blown off... that standard, Sonny Jim, is why these parks have lasted this long...I'm keenly aware of the cheap expectations of tourists and for me, the only saving grace in this poorly placed Norway "revamp" is that enough snot nosed, screaming little brats, will want to see "Anna and Elsa" and their little deformed snowman friend long enough for their parents to spend money at EPCOT so that the rest of the park might get some financial love from the Weatherman and his house of ill-repute. Maybe THEN we can get back to the beautiful, thoughtful, and optimistic park that was EPCOT.

As for my snark...it is toward the whole of the parks, and company...not just Epcot...and there are plenty on this forum just like me...in fact, you might learn a thing or two from the best of them here. They are a resource...and a valuable one at that.

And the Nemo overlay does SUCK. It was cheap, dirty, and could have been so much more...and I'll give Norway a shot...as soon as they move the POS to Magic Kingdom where it belongs... Which of course, will never happen...so...I guess it's on to waiting for 20 years for it to be demolished. Of course, by then we'll have 5 friggin' sequels...and kids on Anna and Elsa hoverboards... It's not the ideas my friend...it's the execution...

Don't be a sheep. And watch it with that "old man" treatment you're giving me...there's some awesome members on here that are your age and just a hair older who are the same kind of fan I am...remember that you are standing boots deep in "EPCOT fan boys"...

I for one will say I am a PROUD EPCOT (Disney) Fanboy (girl).


That said, a few of the people on this thread reminded me why the 'ignore' function exists. It's starting to make me think we are living in the "Disney version of Idiocracy." But you sir, hit the nail on the head.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

I for one will say I am a PROUD EPCOT (Disney) Fanboy (girl).


That said, a few of the people on this thread reminded me why the 'ignore' function exists. It's starting to make me think we are living in the "Disney version of Idiocracy." But you sir, hit the nail on the head.

Back at ya ma'am! Think I might have to acutally dust off that ignore button and use it...for the first time...

 

[Mike S]

If you're wondering how The Haunted Mansion fits into all of this, I suggest this article written on the subject.

Finally read the article. Incredible.

 

[TeriofTerror]

1. Of course opinions can be wrong. If you think the Broadway production of "Spiderman" was of a higher caliber than "Hamilton", you're just straight-up wrong.
2. Just because some people like something, that doesn't make it a good idea. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is how we ended up with a Trump candidacy. Sure, some people think he's great, but I'll redirect you to point #1.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Allow me to annotate...

I would pick that mic up because when you drop it after a mediocre speech, it doesn't have the desired effect.

Sure...I'll pick it up...and I'll tell you what you can do with it too...


The way you just presented yourself is exactly what I never want to be. You are suggesting we learn from people like you? Seriously?

Could be worse...I could be a glutton for forum punishment who is unaware as to when to just stop.

You are self-appointed Disneyphile snobs with nothing to back yourselves up but your little clique of opinionated, anonymous, bully-lite pals in a Fox-news like echo-chamber of self-congratulatory back slapping.

We're not snobs...far from it...but if we see someone who is let's say...a bozo..we call 'em out. And for that matter there is plenty to back the rhetoric up. Try Google. Read the countless numbers of blogs with GOOD argments on the subject matter with historical facts, figures, and testimony. And we're not bullies... seriously. What is this...a schoolyard? And Fox news...please don't stoop to that level of insult...

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

Actually, that would be a Viacom style as the movie was distributed by Paramount. And I'm hardly a ginger... and... you... used that reference...? See something new every day!

But it's time to grow up and realize you chose Disney, Disney didn't choose you.

Wrong. Just wrong. On my own part, I came to Disney as part of a school trip...it sucked me in...there's something about it that keeps me going...and keeps me hungry for knowledge and history and preserving a very old legacy...something about it speaks to me...if you think that's BS...then good for you...I was well past the age of Fairy tales and cutesy stuff...it was design, it was theming, it was atmosphere...


Disney has no obligation to please you, or to remain faithful to you or your ideals of what Disney should be.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Anyone who subscribes to their product...has a say...has a right to be pleased...can walk away if they're so gutless...can buy stock...and if you can buy enough stock...hold Mr. Iger's leash. I can't afford that kinda stock...so I'll keep the fires burning...

There are objective criticisms to be made if there are slips in cleanliness, maintenance, guest services, or if they started replacing E-ticket rides with sliding boards and those little horses on springs.

And...there's all of this...ask around for examples from other users...since you've neglected my little list I made for you earlier...there's several examples of everything you've just said.

But, as I have told my own employees, right or wrong is only relevant in the sense of what I think is right or wrong. If you work for Walgreens, and Mr. Walgreen (if there is one) comes up and tells you to pull all boxes on shelves forward at night, and you tell him he is wrong - guess what? You're out. He's right, because it's his company. Even if you think customers like it better with the boxes pushed back. Now, if the customers bear out that he was wrong and business goes down, then he will change/adapt or suffer.

That analogy is hard to read...and doesn't hold much water...obviously this forum isn't ran by Disney...and I'm certainly not getting paid for any of this any more than you are...so...nah.

If the consequences are that 10 customers hate it and go to CVS instead, but overall business increases, then that's OK. That's a win for the company, even if it loses a few people, as long as it is a net gain.

That mindset is part of what fuels these arguments...I realize that you cannot please everyone...and I know it's a business...but it is woven into Americana and therefore the lines blur...and there is truth in what you've said...but that concept needs to be turned down a lot...

And chances are 5 of those 10 customers will come back and learn to live with it when they find out CVS charges more for their prescriptions.

Sure. I understand this...that's why I'll still shell out the dough to go visit Disney World/Disney Land even though I disapprove of some of this stuff...but...I still won't set foot in the Studios for the same price..and that's one person out of millions...but...again...this is a forum. This is a place for discussion and debate...

There is no doubt in my mind there will be 7DMT-type lines for Frozen in Norway for at least as long as there has been for 7DMT.

I'm sure there will be too...and honestly...I've made mention that my only good feeling about the whole mess is that it'll pull in money and make the suits cough up some much-needed dough for Epcot. But I'm also sure the lines will annoy me and disrupt the flow of World Showcase...and be a major pain in everyone's backside for at least the first year...

There will be a much, much smaller percentage of guests who will never go to Frozen in Norway, and an infinitesimal number of guests who won't go back to WDW at all.

And?

This is simple math.

And?

The only thing that could go wrong is if the new ride itself actually sucks - not that the theme is out of place, but that the ride itself is lame.

Ha! There's a record number of screw ups on another Epcot classic...have a gander...I suggest one of Marni's vids on Journey Into Imagination...it's not an impossibility...and I'm they'll try to bandage it...badly...cheaply..

Otherwise, those of you who are making a bigger deal than is warranted about changes Disney makes are just shouting into the wind. Nothing you can say will matter. You can choose to be bitter about it and sound like little crankypants, or you can choose to be optimistic about it and give it a fair shot without sneering.

And by this point you're talking to a group of people and not just me...And we'll choose to be bitter...you can bet money on that...and it'll get it's fair shot...there's not many "fanboys" who'll pass up a chance to see if it has been worth it. We're as curious as you are... however, I'll tell YOU now that you're shouting into the wind...nothing you've posted will matter either...in fact...I'm rather annoyed by this point...you're beyond value to me...and I'm sure to many others as far as this discussion goes...

Walt didn't choose theming over money. He didn't have time to even cross that bridge. We can think, idealistically, that he would have put some ideals of perfection above the almighty dollar, but frankly - I've seen the movies and the documentaries. Walt, as much as he loved kids and what not, he very much wanted to make a name for himself and to make money. So we don't know what he would have done.

Examples? The guy pushed the bar as far as he could get Roy to help him push it. He was an innovator and changed the face of entertainment...and it wasn't necessarily all about the money to him either...if I remember some of the same documentaries and books...he often re-invested a lot of what he made...but you can bet your boots he would have built a city and not a theme park called Epcot...so...that point is dead...

I saw the Living Seas before Nemo and it was fine. I saw the Living Seas with Nemo and thought it was better. I never had a negative thought about it. I never thought something had been taken away. I thought, "Wow, look, they still put effort into these things, and we like Nemo, so..."

Okay...I rode it and thought..."Cheap". I thought...this is a crappy rip-off of the Submarines at Disneyland...and it's not even well done...do you realize that the underwater theming is BETTER on the Little Mermaid attraction? For that matter...I'd have loved to see something where Mr. Ray taught us something about the Seas...and they could have used their little cartoons to their heart's content...but no...it was since we don't have any integrity, how fast and how dirty can we wedge something we've already built into this old pavilion that we don't care about?

If I want to focus on the aquarium, I'll go to Miami SeaQuarium and save a bundle. Or I'll go to the Atlanta aquarium (again) which puts Disney to shame.

Ok. Fine. And?

When I'm at WDW, I'm thinking, "That's nice, but I can see aquariums anywhere." We spend a good amount of time in there. (Watch a shark go after a fish in front of children LOL.) But really, I want something special only Disney can provide. And there are comparable or better aquariums and zoos.

Sure. But this is about Disney's aquarium..this is a Disney discussion? The aquarium is a part of the cheap Nemo overlay right? Right. The aquarium doesn't concern me.

Snark and arrogance are valuable resources? What is this, opposite world?

No...don't twist crap around...there are people who are completely objective, knowledgeable, and highly snarky...and they are valuable resources. I cannot express to you in words how much I've learned from them.

I prefer optimism, reality, humility. I don't have to hunt for every inconsistency to impress people with my vast knowledge of Disneyana.

And you assume I do?...I was just swimming along minding my own business and I spotted a Bozo fish...had to spear it. and it wouldn't die!

Walt is gone. "The standard" is unrealistic, just like Apple is not going to be the same after a while has passed without Steve Jobs.

To half-a**ed quote Harry Potter...Walt Disney is never truly gone as long as there are those who are loyal to him...

And I'd go a step further and say...keep his fire burning...and NO that standard is not unrealistic...it is legendary...and it still is there...whether or not they can measure up is only subject to time and leadership.

Hell, I can't even get people to work up to my standards in my little record store. When I'm gone, it's done for.

Sorry to hear that...it's hard to find good record stores where I come from...ones with decent vinyls in good shape that aren't warped or scratched to hell...


I'm done here. There's no more argument coming from me...just know you're probably out-numbered...and that folks like me aren't out to be unkind or mean...but you will get called out...Mean?...that's definitiely your perception and not everone else's. And I'll tell you right now that I've been knocked on my butt a time or two on here...and I'm better for it. There's plenty of humility here sir...

I'm glad you're done. I've never minded being outnumbered and can hold my own.

You come across as exceedingly arrogant, and we've just established we have little to no regard for each other. Cool. This means zero to me.

Disney owes you something because you came on a school trip. ROFLMAO. I guess the Statue of Liberty owes me something, then.

And the plural of vinyl is "vinyl."

 

[Seabasealpha1]

...............

I'm glad you're done. I've never minded being outnumbered and can hold my own.

You come across as exceedingly arrogant, and we've just established we have little to no regard for each other. Cool. This means zero to me.

Disney owes you something because you came on a school trip. ROFLMAO. I guess the Statue of Liberty owes me something, then.

And the plural of vinyl is "vinyl."

 

[Tony the Tigger]

...............

Awww...you have your mom's eyes. Aaaaaand...ignore.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

Awww...you have your mom's eyes. Aaaaaand...ignore.

 

[NearTheEars]

Allow me to annotate...

I would pick that mic up because when you drop it after a mediocre speech, it doesn't have the desired effect.

Sure...I'll pick it up...and I'll tell you what you can do with it too...


The way you just presented yourself is exactly what I never want to be. You are suggesting we learn from people like you? Seriously?

Could be worse...I could be a glutton for forum punishment who is unaware as to when to just stop.

You are self-appointed Disneyphile snobs with nothing to back yourselves up but your little clique of opinionated, anonymous, bully-lite pals in a Fox-news like echo-chamber of self-congratulatory back slapping.

We're not snobs...far from it...but if we see someone who is let's say...a bozo..we call 'em out. And for that matter there is plenty to back the rhetoric up. Try Google. Read the countless numbers of blogs with GOOD argments on the subject matter with historical facts, figures, and testimony. And we're not bullies... seriously. What is this...a schoolyard? And Fox news...please don't stoop to that level of insult...

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

Actually, that would be a Viacom style as the movie was distributed by Paramount. And I'm hardly a ginger... and... you... used that reference...? See something new every day!

But it's time to grow up and realize you chose Disney, Disney didn't choose you.

Wrong. Just wrong. On my own part, I came to Disney as part of a school trip...it sucked me in...there's something about it that keeps me going...and keeps me hungry for knowledge and history and preserving a very old legacy...something about it speaks to me...if you think that's BS...then good for you...I was well past the age of Fairy tales and cutesy stuff...it was design, it was theming, it was atmosphere...


Disney has no obligation to please you, or to remain faithful to you or your ideals of what Disney should be.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Anyone who subscribes to their product...has a say...has a right to be pleased...can walk away if they're so gutless...can buy stock...and if you can buy enough stock...hold Mr. Iger's leash. I can't afford that kinda stock...so I'll keep the fires burning...

There are objective criticisms to be made if there are slips in cleanliness, maintenance, guest services, or if they started replacing E-ticket rides with sliding boards and those little horses on springs.

And...there's all of this...ask around for examples from other users...since you've neglected my little list I made for you earlier...there's several examples of everything you've just said.

But, as I have told my own employees, right or wrong is only relevant in the sense of what I think is right or wrong. If you work for Walgreens, and Mr. Walgreen (if there is one) comes up and tells you to pull all boxes on shelves forward at night, and you tell him he is wrong - guess what? You're out. He's right, because it's his company. Even if you think customers like it better with the boxes pushed back. Now, if the customers bear out that he was wrong and business goes down, then he will change/adapt or suffer.

That analogy is hard to read...and doesn't hold much water...obviously this forum isn't ran by Disney...and I'm certainly not getting paid for any of this any more than you are...so...nah.

If the consequences are that 10 customers hate it and go to CVS instead, but overall business increases, then that's OK. That's a win for the company, even if it loses a few people, as long as it is a net gain.

That mindset is part of what fuels these arguments...I realize that you cannot please everyone...and I know it's a business...but it is woven into Americana and therefore the lines blur...and there is truth in what you've said...but that concept needs to be turned down a lot...

And chances are 5 of those 10 customers will come back and learn to live with it when they find out CVS charges more for their prescriptions.

Sure. I understand this...that's why I'll still shell out the dough to go visit Disney World/Disney Land even though I disapprove of some of this stuff...but...I still won't set foot in the Studios for the same price..and that's one person out of millions...but...again...this is a forum. This is a place for discussion and debate...

There is no doubt in my mind there will be 7DMT-type lines for Frozen in Norway for at least as long as there has been for 7DMT.

I'm sure there will be too...and honestly...I've made mention that my only good feeling about the whole mess is that it'll pull in money and make the suits cough up some much-needed dough for Epcot. But I'm also sure the lines will annoy me and disrupt the flow of World Showcase...and be a major pain in everyone's backside for at least the first year...

There will be a much, much smaller percentage of guests who will never go to Frozen in Norway, and an infinitesimal number of guests who won't go back to WDW at all.

And?

This is simple math.

And?

The only thing that could go wrong is if the new ride itself actually sucks - not that the theme is out of place, but that the ride itself is lame.

Ha! There's a record number of screw ups on another Epcot classic...have a gander...I suggest one of Marni's vids on Journey Into Imagination...it's not an impossibility...and I'm they'll try to bandage it...badly...cheaply..

Otherwise, those of you who are making a bigger deal than is warranted about changes Disney makes are just shouting into the wind. Nothing you can say will matter. You can choose to be bitter about it and sound like little crankypants, or you can choose to be optimistic about it and give it a fair shot without sneering.

And by this point you're talking to a group of people and not just me...And we'll choose to be bitter...you can bet money on that...and it'll get it's fair shot...there's not many "fanboys" who'll pass up a chance to see if it has been worth it. We're as curious as you are... however, I'll tell YOU now that you're shouting into the wind...nothing you've posted will matter either...in fact...I'm rather annoyed by this point...you're beyond value to me...and I'm sure to many others as far as this discussion goes...

Walt didn't choose theming over money. He didn't have time to even cross that bridge. We can think, idealistically, that he would have put some ideals of perfection above the almighty dollar, but frankly - I've seen the movies and the documentaries. Walt, as much as he loved kids and what not, he very much wanted to make a name for himself and to make money. So we don't know what he would have done.

Examples? The guy pushed the bar as far as he could get Roy to help him push it. He was an innovator and changed the face of entertainment...and it wasn't necessarily all about the money to him either...if I remember some of the same documentaries and books...he often re-invested a lot of what he made...but you can bet your boots he would have built a city and not a theme park called Epcot...so...that point is dead...

I saw the Living Seas before Nemo and it was fine. I saw the Living Seas with Nemo and thought it was better. I never had a negative thought about it. I never thought something had been taken away. I thought, "Wow, look, they still put effort into these things, and we like Nemo, so..."

Okay...I rode it and thought..."Cheap". I thought...this is a crappy rip-off of the Submarines at Disneyland...and it's not even well done...do you realize that the underwater theming is BETTER on the Little Mermaid attraction? For that matter...I'd have loved to see something where Mr. Ray taught us something about the Seas...and they could have used their little cartoons to their heart's content...but no...it was since we don't have any integrity, how fast and how dirty can we wedge something we've already built into this old pavilion that we don't care about?

If I want to focus on the aquarium, I'll go to Miami SeaQuarium and save a bundle. Or I'll go to the Atlanta aquarium (again) which puts Disney to shame.

Ok. Fine. And?

When I'm at WDW, I'm thinking, "That's nice, but I can see aquariums anywhere." We spend a good amount of time in there. (Watch a shark go after a fish in front of children LOL.) But really, I want something special only Disney can provide. And there are comparable or better aquariums and zoos.

Sure. But this is about Disney's aquarium..this is a Disney discussion? The aquarium is a part of the cheap Nemo overlay right? Right. The aquarium doesn't concern me.

Snark and arrogance are valuable resources? What is this, opposite world?

No...don't twist crap around...there are people who are completely objective, knowledgeable, and highly snarky...and they are valuable resources. I cannot express to you in words how much I've learned from them.

I prefer optimism, reality, humility. I don't have to hunt for every inconsistency to impress people with my vast knowledge of Disneyana.

And you assume I do?...I was just swimming along minding my own business and I spotted a Bozo fish...had to spear it. and it wouldn't die!

Walt is gone. "The standard" is unrealistic, just like Apple is not going to be the same after a while has passed without Steve Jobs.

To half-a**ed quote Harry Potter...Walt Disney is never truly gone as long as there are those who are loyal to him...

And I'd go a step further and say...keep his fire burning...and NO that standard is not unrealistic...it is legendary...and it still is there...whether or not they can measure up is only subject to time and leadership.

Hell, I can't even get people to work up to my standards in my little record store. When I'm gone, it's done for.

Sorry to hear that...it's hard to find good record stores where I come from...ones with decent vinyl in good shape that aren't warped or scratched to hell...


I'm done here. There's no more argument coming from me...just know you're probably out-numbered...and that folks like me aren't out to be unkind or mean...but you will get called out...Mean?...that's definitiely your perception and not everone else's. And I'll tell you right now that I've been knocked on my butt a time or two on here...and I'm better for it. There's plenty of humility here sir...

That took a lot of effort. Kind of makes me sad I never got to experience the original Seas. It must have been awesome since you spent several hours annotating that post in its defense.

ETA: But seriously, I wish they'd do a little more maintenance work to what remains of the old attraction. Nemo, itself doesn't bother me seeing it with fresh eyes. But like I said, never experienced the original.

 

[Herbie]

Your Disney Style is Mean Girls.

Actually, that would be a Viacom style as the movie was distributed by Paramount. And I'm hardly a ginger... and... you... used that reference...? See something new every day!

Let's leave the ginger out of it.
The blonde was the evil one.
We're all rooting for that ginger.

He gets points just for using that reference, and so blunt and strongly, too, at that. That is all!