The Muppets Present… Great Moments in American History'

[Tony the Tigger]

First and foremost...if you honestly believe that the "Company" would correct anything that is terrible...then your faith is horribly misplaced in the current generation running the show. Most of the decisions like:

• the Seas
  
• Norway's murder
  
• Stitch (one and done-how 'bout you?)
• the Yeti (and the fact that they still advertise it as being the big deal it is not)
• the death of and continued rotting of Wonders of Life
  
• Horizons (need I say more there?)
  
• the Imagination pavilion and it's horrible history of bad attempts to out-do what wasn't broken as a concept to begin with (could have been a classic as much as ANY Magic Kingdom classic!)
  
• Tomorrowland at Magic Kingdom in general..what a dump!
  
• the ever-disappearing AA's of the Energy Pavilion
  
• the cheapness of Dinoland USA (cheap name from the get-go)
• the empty show building behind the Japan pavilion
• the fact that Hollywood Studios has literally half a park left and is STILL open for the same rate as the other parks..even though they're trying to "re-format"

and Epcot as a concept...being sold out and abused piece by piece.

...there is NO end to some of the stupidity and bad stewardship...

I can keep making this list go on...

The only thing they want corrected is the weight of the wallet...it should always be heavier... and if you think they're doing such "miracle work" as of late...take a look at these firings and resignations these last few weeks...things ain't going well...and while many Disney "fans" choose to overlook it (and that's their business) or just "drink the Kool-Aid"...

I ain't one of them. I'm holding out hope for a return to sanity...and from the looks of it, it's gonna be a while.

Add all the qualifiers you want...you're just shooting a BB Gun at a freight train...objectivity is in the eye of the beholder...

On one end are the Kool-Aid drinkers. On the other end are the purists. Each to their own skewed creed.

In the middle, well that's where I live. Nobody's evil. It's a theme park. It'll all be fine. I can have an opinion about whether or not I think I'm going to like something, but I can hold off judgment until I see it in action.

Geez, if anything kills the "magic" it's conversations like these more than Disney tweaking anything.

But if a little tweak "ruins" something for you, I don't know what to tell you, and I'll hold back what would probably come across as an insulting observation.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Gods above that's an ugly truck.

It's for Nicholas Cage's next "Ghost Rider" movie.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

And therein lies the problem. That wasn't always an expectation for every area of a theme park made by Disney. If it was EPCOT Center would've been a miserable failure and would've taken the company down with it. That's how much was invested in it.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Nobody has that crystal ball.

I would bet more first timers would like to see more Disney characters integrated into Epcot. I guess Figment was special and gets a pass because he was a Disney character made especially for Epcot. That naturally makes him better than The Muppets (those darned Muppets) which I'm guessing would have been more popular for a journey into imagination. (Does the blasphemy never end?)

I'm so sorry you guys are so bothered by Disney characters and related IP's in a Disney theme park, and so shocked that big companies are all about money. The days of big companies giving a rip about employees, customers, taxes, or anything other than their own pockets and golden parachutes are long gone.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

and I'll hold back what would probably come across as an insulting observation.

Oh no...please...lay it on me...

Your definition of "tweak" is interesting...if by the word tweak you mean demolishing, downgrading, selling out, and destroying a 60 year legacy...then sure...who cares about a little "tweak" here and there...

Sure...to each their own...

 

[njDizFan]

Not a fan of this idea at all.

I have a feeling that FP+ had it's dirty hands in this. FP+ was designed in most part to spread out the crowds, artifically inflating wait times for rides that did not have one before. Now the HoP is not pulling it's weight. This was an original E-ticket with a pretty big footprint and holds a ton of people. Just like with stores if they are not moving enough merchandise per square foot things need to change.

So add a gimmick to draw people into this show and get them off the streets and standby lines for Splash, HM etc. Maybe this Sam Eagle barker(if that is the plan), can draw a few more 100 people/show into this attractions and justify it's existence.

 

[majortom1981]

May I ask why people are stil lsaying they are changing the hop? The person said they are adding a SEPERATE muppets attraction to the BUILDING. not changing the hop show at all.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

May I ask why people are still saying they are changing the hop? The person said they are adding a SEPARATE Muppet attraction to the BUILDING. not changing the hop show at all.

For that matter...I'm fairly sure this whole mess is an unsubstantiated BS rumor that has been slapped on here..we're all waiting around for any kind of post of proof...and I dunno...maybe I missed it, but it has yet to be seen...

And people tend to freak...and suddenly the attraction exists in the imaginary lands of the discussion forum...

Can you imagine the theme parks if they really existed as discussed on here! I actually think it'd be wicked cool...full of crazy stupid stuff...but cool!

 

[Sped2424]

Really? A show on the roof is just as awful as replacing all the Presidents with Muppets? (or whatever hysteria you were propagating)

At least I don't have to take you seriously anymore.

Lol okay and if I stick miles from tomorrow land for a show on top of space mountain I'm sure you'd be just peachy. Take away the claws tony you have a way of speaking about you that always gets you into arguments that don't need to happen.

 

[Sped2424]

It ruined the Seas for you. I like to add that qualifier for accuracy.

It did not objectively "ruin" the seas. Many people like it, and many people including myself like it better than it was before.

If it objectively "ruined" the seas, then the company would have corrected it.

Ah yes the company which is known for correcting rides that have been ruined. And I am the one to not take seriously

 

[WondersOfLife]

First and foremost...if you honestly believe that the "Company" would correct anything that is terrible...then your faith is horribly misplaced in the current generation running the show. Most of the decisions like:

• the Seas
  
• Norway's murder
  
• Stitch (one and done-how 'bout you?)
• the Yeti (and the fact that they still advertise it as being the big deal it is not)
• the death of and continued rotting of Wonders of Life
  
• Horizons (need I say more there?)
  
• the Imagination pavilion and it's horrible history of bad attempts to out-do what wasn't broken as a concept to begin with (could have been a classic as much as ANY Magic Kingdom classic!)
  
• Tomorrowland at Magic Kingdom in general..what a dump!
  
• the ever-disappearing AA's of the Energy Pavilion
  
• the cheapness of Dinoland USA (cheap name from the get-go)
• the empty show building behind the Japan pavilion
• the fact that Hollywood Studios has literally half a park left and is STILL open for the same rate as the other parks..even though they're trying to "re-format"

and Epcot as a concept...being sold out and abused piece by piece.

...there is NO end to some of the stupidity and bad stewardship...

I can keep making this list go on...

The only thing they want corrected is the weight of the wallet...it should always be heavier... and if you think they're doing such "miracle work" as of late...take a look at these firings and resignations these last few weeks...things ain't going well...and while many Disney "fans" choose to overlook it (and that's their business) or just "drink the Kool-Aid"...

I ain't one of them. I'm holding out hope for a return to sanity...and from the looks of it, it's gonna be a while.

Add all the qualifiers you want...you're just shooting a BB Gun at a freight train...objectivity is in the eye of the beholder...

...but that doesn't mean the seas conversion to nemo was a bad decision. It fits and pleases the tourists perfectly fine... As will Frozen in Norway. So disney lost a few EPCOT fanboys. Big whoop. Disney is trying to please tourists, not people like YOU personally. The tourists don't give a hoot about culture and trolls, or an edutainment aquarium.. They care about nemo and Elsa.

Tourists don't want to be educated, they want to be entertained. So when they go to DISNEY world they're expecting DISNEY characters.

As much as you classic EPCOT fanboys don't want to admit it, and will argue against it as much as possible.... The average tourist didn't care for the original EPCOT theme park because there were no Disney characters, and simply boring attractions. So Disney realized, eventually, that the park needs characters. Because that's what the tourists want, and that's what will bring in the money.

Frozen won't be a bad ride.. But EPCOT fanboys will beg to differ and say it is. But honestly, who is Disney trying to attract more? Some middle/old age classic EPCOT fanatics, or families with small children.

Frozen won't be bad. Nemo isn't bad. Just because YOU don't like the changes that are happening to EPCOT doesn't make them bad ideas.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

...but that doesn't mean the seas conversion to nemo was a bad decision. It fits and pleases the tourists perfectly fine... As will Frozen in Norway. So disney lost a few EPCOT fanboys. Big whoop. Disney is trying to please tourists, not people like YOU personally. The tourists don't give a hoot about culture and trolls, or an edutainment aquarium.. They care about nemo and Elsa.

Tourists don't want to be educated, they want to be entertained. So when they go to DISNEY world they're expecting DISNEY characters.

As much as you classic EPCOT fanboys don't want to admit it, and will argue against it as much as possible.... The average tourist didn't care for the original EPCOT theme park because there were no Disney characters, and simply boring attractions. So Disney realized, eventually, that the park needs characters. Because that's what the tourists want, and that's what will bring in the money.

Frozen won't be a bad ride.. But EPCOT fanboys will beg to differ and say it is. But honestly, who is Disney trying to attract more? Some middle/old age classic EPCOT fanatics, or families with small children.

Frozen won't be bad. Nemo isn't bad. Just because YOU don't like the changes that are happening to EPCOT doesn't make them bad ideas.

First off, Junior... I'm only about 9 years older than you...and much younger than the person I was debating with...which, last I checked...wasn't you. You should be careful about how you address "EPCOT fanboys" on here...I would hope I'm correct in saying that we aren't just fans of EPCOT...we're fans (to the extreme disciples) of Disney and fans of Walt Disney the person...and fans of Walt Disney the concept and set of standards. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suppose that you've not taken the time to read these things called "books" or have taken the time to do some research about the legacy of the parks or what the whole story is really about. I'm sure you...as a young whipper snapper, are aware of that newfangled internet thingy? Oh wait...my feeble brain has just remembered that you're on here...

Of course we enjoy the parks...of course we enjoy the "magic of it all" and of course we get uber ticked off when that standard that was set down in '55 gets blown off... that standard, Sonny Jim, is why these parks have lasted this long...I'm keenly aware of the cheap expectations of tourists and for me, the only saving grace in this poorly placed Norway "revamp" is that enough snot nosed, screaming little brats, will want to see "Anna and Elsa" and their little deformed snowman friend long enough for their parents to spend money at EPCOT so that the rest of the park might get some financial love from the Weatherman and his house of ill-repute. Maybe THEN we can get back to the beautiful, thoughtful, and optimistic park that was EPCOT.

As for my snark...it is toward the whole of the parks, and company...not just Epcot...and there are plenty on this forum just like me...in fact, you might learn a thing or two from the best of them here. They are a resource...and a valuable one at that.

And the Nemo overlay does SUCK. It was cheap, dirty, and could have been so much more...and I'll give Norway a shot...as soon as they move the POS to Magic Kingdom where it belongs... Which of course, will never happen...so...I guess it's on to waiting for 20 years for it to be demolished. Of course, by then we'll have 5 friggin' sequels...and kids on Anna and Elsa hoverboards... It's not the ideas my friend...it's the execution...

Don't be a sheep. And watch it with that "old man" treatment you're giving me...there's some awesome members on here that are your age and just a hair older who are the same kind of fan I am...remember that you are standing boots deep in "EPCOT fan boys"...

 

[Brer Panther]

I would bet more first timers would like to see more Disney characters integrated into Epcot. I guess Figment was special and gets a pass because he was a Disney character made especially for Epcot. That naturally makes him better than The Muppets (those darned Muppets) which I'm guessing would have been more popular for a journey into imagination. (Does the blasphemy never end?)

There's a joke to be made here about how Figment, Gonzo, Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, Zoot, and Beauregard all have the same voice actor...

 

[jrogue]

Frozen won't be a bad ride.. But EPCOT fanboys will beg to differ and say it is. But honestly, who is Disney trying to attract more? Some middle/old age classic EPCOT fanatics, or families with small children.

Pretty sure last I checked Disney was trying to promote parks that appeal to "GUESTS OF ALL AGES" so the answer to your question is both. They are trying very hard to retain their loyal guests while bringing in new ones. If you're going around putting labels on people, then I will gladly consider myself an EPCOT fangirl. I adore EPCOT and one of the things that makes it so special was its idea as a permanent World's Fair/ toast to innovation and the future. I think what is the most insulting part of the whole FROZENSTROM fiasco is its placement, which @Seabasealpha1 tried explaining to you. I would love it if they incorporated the characters into some of their native lands in the world showcase (Panchito in Mexico! Yes!) in a classy and elegant way. However, last time I checked a map Arendelle wasn't located ANYWHERE. It is FICTIONAL in case you weren't aware, so therefore is more appropriate in the Magic Kingdom or Hollywood Studios. Yes, Nemo is a fish and he can be featured in THE SEAS, whatever. I've never seen the show, doesn't interest me. MAELSTROM was a great ride and was perfect where it was. The Frozen princesses have no business in Norway, and I wish they had spent the time and money on something else that will bring guests, both old and new, to EPCOT.

**edit** just realized that my post is off-topic, so: I love Sam Eagle, but I love Liberty Square the way it is. UNLESS of course they added Sam Eagle walking around Liberty Square

 

[Mike S]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Nobody has that crystal ball.

I would bet more first timers would like to see more Disney characters integrated into Epcot. I guess Figment was special and gets a pass because he was a Disney character made especially for Epcot. That naturally makes him better than The Muppets (those darned Muppets) which I'm guessing would have been more popular for a journey into imagination. (Does the blasphemy never end?)

I'm so sorry you guys are so bothered by Disney characters and related IP's in a Disney theme park, and so shocked that big companies are all about money. The days of big companies giving a rip about employees, customers, taxes, or anything other than their own pockets and golden parachutes are long gone.

Well, yes. It only makes him a better fit for Imagination than the Muppets though. May I remind you the Muppets are getting their own mini land in DHS and no one is complaining about that, except maybe a certain purpleish feline . No one has a problem when Disney IP is used correctly. Once upon a time the only place in the parks you would find attractions based on Disney cartoons from the movies was Fantasyland. The first major attraction to break this mold I believe was Splash Mountain in Disneyland in 1989 but since it was placed in a land with a show about singing bears called Bear Country which was renamed to Critter Country, the log flume past singing animals from Song of the South wasn't so out of place and fit right in. For WDW I think it was the addition of the Little Mermaid show in what used to be called MGM. Once again though it was placed in a fitting area next to an attraction all about Disney's animation process. Now fast forward to Magic Kingdom's Tomorrowland circa 1998 and we have the first instance of character infusion in an already existing ride for the purpose of synergy and, very likely, merchandise sales: Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin (a year later Winnie the Pooh would replace Mr. Toad for the same reasons). An attraction that has been cloned the world over and exists in every Tomorrowland. In MK it uses the same track, ride vehicles, and screen tunnel as the attraction before it. "You're in space shooting aliens and stuff so what's the problem of it being in Tomorrowland?" Ok, I can see that. The problem comes when you look at the precedent that has been set since. Buzz is what made made decisions like Stirch's Great Escape, Tiki Room Under New Management (thank the tiki gods for that fire), Monsters Inc. Laugh Floor (I like this show but it could've easily been put in DHS with Toy Story Mania), the Seas with Nemo, Gran Fiesta Tour (I do like those new AA's...), Frostrom, and Guardians of the Tower of Terror/Rockin' Rollercoaster all seem like great ideas that are much more preferable to actual new attractions all in the name of synergy. To bring this rant back to the topic at hand I have nothing against the Muppets. I would just prefer it if everything Muppets was appropriately kept in Muppet Courtyard.

 

[WondersOfLife]

First off, Junior... I'm only about 9 years older than you...and much younger than the person I was debating with...which, last I checked...wasn't you. You should be careful about how you address "EPCOT fanboys" on here...I would hope I'm correct in saying that we aren't just fans of EPCOT...we're fans (to the extreme disciples) of Disney and fans of Walt Disney the person...and fans of Walt Disney the concept and set of standards. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suppose that you've not taken the time to read these things called "books" or have taken the time to do some research about the legacy of the parks or what the whole story is really about. I'm sure you...as a young whipper snapper, are aware of that newfangled internet thingy? Oh wait...my feeble brain has just remembered that you're on here...

Of course we enjoy the parks...of course we enjoy the "magic of it all" and of course we get uber ticked off when that standard that was set down in '55 gets blown off... that standard, Sonny Jim, is why these parks have lasted this long...I'm keenly aware of the cheap expectations of tourists and for me, the only saving grace in this poorly placed Norway "revamp" is that enough snot nosed, screaming little brats, will want to see "Anna and Elsa" and their little deformed snowman friend long enough for their parents to spend money at EPCOT so that the rest of the park might get some financial love from the Weatherman and his house of ill-repute. Maybe THEN we can get back to the beautiful, thoughtful, and optimistic park that was EPCOT.

As for my snark...it is toward the whole of the parks, and company...not just Epcot...and there are plenty on this forum just like me...in fact, you might learn a thing or two from the best of them here. They are a resource...and a valuable one at that.

And the Nemo overlay does SUCK. It was cheap, dirty, and could have been so much more...and I'll give Norway a shot...as soon as they move the POS to Magic Kingdom where it belongs... Which of course, will never happen...so...I guess it's on to waiting for 20 years for it to be demolished. Of course, by then we'll have 5 friggin' sequels...and kids on Anna and Elsa hoverboards... It's not the ideas my friend...it's the execution...

Don't be a sheep. And watch it with that "old man" treatment you're giving me...there's some awesome members on here that are your age and just a hair older who are the same kind of fan I am...remember that you are standing boots deep in "EPCOT fan boys"...

You seem tense.

One more note though... What's with the "old man" references..? When did I accuse you of being old?

 

[WondersOfLife]

Pretty sure last I checked Disney was trying to promote parks that appeal to "GUESTS OF ALL AGES" so the answer to your question is both. They are trying very hard to retain their loyal guests while bringing in new ones. If you're going around putting labels on people, then I will gladly consider myself an EPCOT fangirl. I adore EPCOT and one of the things that makes it so special was its idea as a permanent World's Fair/ toast to innovation and the future. I think what is the most insulting part of the whole FROZENSTROM fiasco is its placement, which @Seabasealpha1 tried explaining to you. I would love it if they incorporated the characters into some of their native lands in the world showcase (Panchito in Mexico! Yes!) in a classy and elegant way. However, last time I checked a map Arendelle wasn't located ANYWHERE. It is FICTIONAL in case you weren't aware, so therefore is more appropriate in the Magic Kingdom or Hollywood Studios. Yes, Nemo is a fish and he can be featured in THE SEAS, whatever. I've never seen the show, doesn't interest me. MAELSTROM was a great ride and was perfect where it was. The Frozen princesses have no business in Norway, and I wish they had spent the time and money on something else that will bring guests, both old and new, to EPCOT.

**edit** just realized that my post is off-topic, so: I love Sam Eagle, but I love Liberty Square the way it is. UNLESS of course they added Sam Eagle walking around Liberty Square

People seem to mis-understand what I'm trying to get across here. The decisions that Disney is making are not bad. Nemo in the seas works, families want to see nemo. Frozen in Norway works, families want to see Anna and Elsa. Star Wars land and Toy Story land works, for the same reason. I am myself an "EPCOT fan boy," would I prefer horizons and world of motion over M:S and TT? Yes. Would I prefer Maelstrom over Frozen? Yes. But I understand why Disney World is making these changes.

Walt Disney World is not Disneyland. Despite what you may think, WDW management couldn't care less about the Disney park history buffs anymore. If you're going to Disney to experience nostalgia, and an appreciation of classics and how things used to be run, then you better save up and plan a trip to California.

Unlike Disneyland, Disney World makes its big bucks on tourists, not the locals. The decisions WDW makes are not bad because of that situation. What they are putting in, is working. Seas with nemo is much more popular than it was before. Frozen will be even MORE popular than Maelstrom was. Are you understanding what I'm saying? Or should I rephrase that, since I already don't have much respect because of my age to.. "Ya catch my drift, homes?"

 

[jrogue]

The decisions WDW makes are not bad because of that situation. What they are putting in, is working. Seas with nemo is much more popular than it was before. Frozen will be even MORE popular than Maelstrom was. Are you understanding what I'm saying? Or should I rephrase that, since I already don't have much respect because of my age to.. "Ya catch my drift, homes?"

Just because something is popular or will make something more popular doesn't mean it's good. In this case, Frozen does not fit in Norway in EPCOT, and I'm sure many believe the Muppets don't fit in Liberty Square. Iago and Zazu didn't fit in the Tiki Room.

Also, age isn't what's important right now. I'm not much older than you are, but I understand that while the parks need to continue improving and opening new attractions, they don't need to sacrifice what the parks stood for and should update things with whats appropriate for the area.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Lol okay and if I stick miles from tomorrow land for a show on top of space mountain I'm sure you'd be just peachy. Take away the claws tony you have a way of speaking about you that always gets you into arguments that don't need to happen.

Sorry, I'm not allowed to point out that you completely misrepresented what was being reported as possibly happening?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Ah yes the company which is known for correcting rides that have been ruined. And I am the one to not take seriously

Which ride has been ruined? Other than the presumably temporary foot-washing at Pirates?

 

[Mike S]

Just because something is popular or will make something more popular doesn't mean it's good. In this case, Frozen does not fit in Norway in EPCOT, and I'm sure many believe the Muppets don't fit in Liberty Square. Iago and Zazu didn't fit in the Tiki Room.

Also, age isn't what's important right now. I'm not much older than you are, but I understand that while the parks need to continue improving and opening new attractions, they don't need to sacrifice what the parks stood for and should update things with whats appropriate for the area.

The ironic thing is Buzz is the only one of these rethemes that is actually popular. Everything else is a virtual walk on. If the goal was to attract more guests to each of these attractions they failed.