The Muppets Present… Great Moments in American History'

[mouse_luv]

Like I said, you have made all good points.
It's just tough to make any judgement on this when we have no idea what we are getting.
If it turns out to be something that is contained to the inside of the second floor, will it really hurt the LS theming more than say Mickey inside the theater? Who's to say restraint won't be used?

Obviously is Sam is hanging out of a window yelling, that's just unnecessary.
And, overall, I think it's a silly addition when the Muppets have their own courtyard in DHS.

Why not just bring back, and move the Fife and Drum Corps to LS if they need a new show in that land.

While I agree with your point on a yelling Sam and the Muppets belonging in DHS.
The last part will have people coming by to say that because kids won't see the Fife and Drum Corps as relevant and interesting, there's no need for it and why it was done away with in the first place.
You know reasons why we can't have nice things.

 

[NearTheEars]

While I agree with your point on a yelling Sam and the Muppets belonging in DHS.
The last part will have people coming by to say that because kids won't see the Fife and Drum Corps as relevant and interesting, there's no need for it and why it was done away with in the first place.
You know reasons why we can't have nice things.

I'd like to think young kids still enjoy a little dose of patriotism.
But you're right, they won't see Fife and Drum Corps on the entertainment guide and beg mom and dad to go see it. I think children that would happen upon their performance would enjoy it, though. Especially when they'd invite them up to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Unfortunately, we'll probably never see them again.

 

[RSoxNo1]

So a Facebook rumor and a couple "hmm maybes" is now fact? Confused by that...

One of the "hmmm maybes" was from @wdwmagic

 

[FigmentJedi]

I'd like to think young kids still enjoy a little dose of patriotism.

Naw, patriotism in media these days is mostly over the top ironic stuff rather then something as sincere as Liberty Square. Why just look at the newest Marvel monster character, Corporal Todd Ziller, a mega-patriot that volunteered for shady government super-science throwing various super serums into a blender, codenamed the American Kaiju.

 

[Mike S]

I don't understand having a dedicated area for a particular IP and then putting that IP elsewhere where it doesn't belong... what is wrong with this company?

Toy Story, Muppets, and even Star Wars will now have dedicated lands + attractions outside of said land. Crazy.

I have no doubt this could be a really fun show and work in the location, the Muppets could certainly be patriotic. But we don't need cartoon(ish) characters everywhere to be entertained, do we? I love that Liberty Square, tiny as it is, doesn't scream THIS IS DISNEY in your face (except the parades, of course.)

That said, I'm intrigued by what kind of show this could be, I love when the Muppets are used in WDW. Just wish it could be somewhere else.

Technically it does. Liberty Square is more Disney to me than some of the recent things they've pulled.

Because people would rather have a land that has remained virtually unchanged in 40ish years to remain virtually unchanged.

I know, crazy...

Not necessarily. I'd be fully on board with Sleepy Hollow, a story actually rooted in our heritage.

Yeah, it just sounds like an additional little bit - and Sam the Eagle certainly does fit into that theme. I don't see the uproar on this one as it doesn't sound like it's replacing anything or removing anything. If it gets kids more interested in history, I can't see any harm in it.

I'm certainly not in an uproar. My reaction is more "what the- why?"

Putting The Muppets in Liberty Square is a terrible idea. Period.

As conceieved and executed, Liberty Square, like Main Street and Frontierland, is meant to showcase a time in history and offer experiences that tie into the modern conceptions of what themes and locations resonate with that time period. Liberty Square is about early American history, and originally all buildings, shops and restaurants offered samples of life in those days, within the framework of a clean, family friendly enviroment. A silversmith, a tavern, shipyard, colonial mansion, Liberty Tree, tricorn hat shop, fife and drum corps and a government structure based on Independence Hall with the date of the constitution on it. It's no accident that The Hall of Presidents is located in the centre of the land. Though it features moments in history beyond the 1790s, the underlining themes (The Consitution, democarcy etc) are rooted in the values planted in the same time as those Liberty Trees. [If you're wondering how The Haunted Mansion fits into all of this, I suggest this article written on the subject].

A character like Sam the Eagle (let alone the rest of The Muppets), has nothing to do with any of these themes. His "patriotism" is largely played for laughs, and his existance has nothing to do with the values or time period of Liberty Square, even from a modern interpretation like Johnny Tremain. If built, the attraction/show may be cute in its own right, but it would represent another failure on the part of Disney's current corporate and creative culture to respect the groundwork that was laid for them but their predecessors. I'm not saying nothing in Liberty Square should ever change, but there are better options for the land than the work of Jim Henson.

This is the kind of "creative" thinking that gets put out on twitter by fans who have no background in design or knowledge of the company's history. Now people are paid an annual salary and are actively encouraged by upper management to think up these concepts because the underlining goal of Walt Synergy World is pushing brands, and not creating quality themed experiences that can stand on their own merit or support established design principles. Once again, Disney is imitating its competitor by beliving that theme parks are where people go to "ride the movies".

If you love this idea and think its cool, it's because you are a Disney movie fan or Muppet fan first and of theme parks second or third. It's a shame that The Magic Kingdom, a park so carefully mapped out from both a physical and conceptual standpoint continues to be chipped away by a lack of originality rooted in shameless self promotion.

[/rant]

 

[Tony the Tigger]

A show on the roof is just as awful.

Really? A show on the roof is just as awful as replacing all the Presidents with Muppets? (or whatever hysteria you were propagating)

At least I don't have to take you seriously anymore.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I could have been less polite, I decided not to this time.

These decisions haven't proven to be necessary, they've proven to be lazy. This isn't an either or proposition with Frozen, it wasn't Maelstrom at $75 million or Fantasyland at $75 billion. Better options existed.


Even transitions are done deliberately at Disney World. You'll see music blend seemlessly and a bridge might transition the pavement. Trees and architectural changes help make that transition easier.

I for one am very much against the tent facades of it's a small world and Peter Pan because it feels cheap relative to other areas of the land. You and I both know that the execution of theming throughout Disney World isn't flawless but it's pretty damn good. I like when it's improved and hate when it's torn away. That's what I feel is happening in Epcot. It's a piecemeal tear down of the cohesive and logical theming of that park.


This isn't a debate about maintenance, but things like that happen. As long as their repaired in a timely manner, I think that's a reasonable expectation.

I definitely disagree. Now, what we've come to accept are Disney characters roaming around various lands in different outfits. I would accept the muppets as walk around characters in Liberty Square provided they're in Revolutionary War garb. That has happened at Epcot as early as '84 and it feels far less permanent to me than an actual attraction.


Epcot was always grounded on some semblance of reality with the exception of the Imagination Pavilion for obvious reasons. The countries of World Showcase are intended to be idealized versions of those cultures but still grounded in reality and mythology. It's a delicate balance, but Frozen is Disney's interpretation of a Danish fairytale. While landscapes and architecture have European/Scandinavian/Norwegian influences that is the only tie.

I'm not saying they shouldn't build a Frozen ride. I'm saying they shouldn't build a Frozen ride in Epcot.


If it was supposed to be that way than it would have been built that way in 1982. Pinocchio and Snow White would have had rides in Germany. Sleeping Beauty would have had a ride in France. Alice and Mary Poppins would have rides in the United Kingdom.


I think there is still talent left in Imagineering, but I have serious questions about the decision making process. I don't think Imagineering is allowed to build the best attractions they can anymore. There's always caveats now. It's now, build the best Frozen attraction, in this show building for $75 million. Or, find the fastest way to get Guardians of the Galaxy into Hollywood Studios. Or, the Muppets aren't doing well on TV let's give them a presence in another park besides Hollywood Studios.


Epcot has set the precedent for edutainment. If they're going to do away with that, then do it quicker than over a 25 year period. Don't keep Spaceship Earth as a record of human communication in a land shared by a Pixar attraction.

These decisions are lazy. These decisions are void of creativity.


American Adventure and Hall of Presidents are not attractions I visit every trip, but I visit them often enough. I would rather they be removed entirely than be cheapened by the Muppets.

I enjoy the Muppets, but they have their place as well. Now if you want to do a new concept for Muppet Movie Ride using the Muppets characters in DHS to spoof other attractions around WDW instead of just The Great Movie Ride I would be on board. In fact, I would expect the majority of the people on these boards would be on board as well.

So basically it comes down to a difference of opinion in that you think Nemo cheapens the Seas, any hint of Muppet will cheapen HoP, and Frozen cheapens (or worse) Norway.

I respect your opinion, I can understand your arguments. I guess I just take it less seriously in the context of a WDW park. I expect to see cartoon characters everywhere, even where they typically might not "belong." Cartoon fish and real fish are not at odds to me. Remember, to fully enjoy the film, and to little kids, there is a willful suspension of disbelief in that Nemo IS a real fish (who can talk, etc) and the ride places him squarely in that context with real fish. I thought it was a great improvement without breaking the bank, another chance to enjoy Nemo, and a natural lead-in to the aquarium where kids will see real sea life.

We disagree, that's fine. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful discussion.

 

[wdisney9000]

So basically it comes down to a difference of opinion in that you think Nemo cheapens the Seas, any hint of Muppet will cheapen HoP, and Frozen cheapens (or worse) Norway.

IMO, its like when you see someone with an older car who obviously went to the auto store and bought all the cheap plastic decals to make their car look better or faster. Is the car actually improved in any way? No, its just a polished turd.

 

[RSoxNo1]

So basically it comes down to a difference of opinion in that you think Nemo cheapens the Seas, any hint of Muppet will cheapen HoP, and Frozen cheapens (or worse) Norway.

I respect your opinion, I can understand your arguments. I guess I just take it less seriously in the context of a WDW park. I expect to see cartoon characters everywhere, even where they typically might not "belong." Cartoon fish and real fish are not at odds to me. Remember, to fully enjoy the film, and to little kids, there is a willful suspension of disbelief in that Nemo IS a real fish (who can talk, etc) and the ride places him squarely in that context with real fish. I thought it was a great improvement without breaking the bank, another chance to enjoy Nemo, and a natural lead-in to the aquarium where kids will see real sea life.

We disagree, that's fine. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful discussion.

I appreciate you not saying, "let's agree to disagree".

 

[WondersOfLife]

The Muppets do not belong in Liberty Square. That shouldn't require an explanation.

Neither does the Haunted Mansion, but it squeezed in there, didn't it?


I won't believe the rumor until there is evidence. At least 3 people have asked for the link to that FB post and it has been ignored all times.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

So basically it comes down to a difference of opinion in that you think Nemo cheapens the Seas, any hint of Muppet will cheapen HoP, and Frozen cheapens (or worse) Norway.

I respect your opinion, I can understand your arguments. I guess I just take it less seriously in the context of a WDW park. I expect to see cartoon characters everywhere, even where they typically might not "belong." Cartoon fish and real fish are not at odds to me. Remember, to fully enjoy the film, and to little kids, there is a willful suspension of disbelief in that Nemo IS a real fish (who can talk, etc) and the ride places him squarely in that context with real fish. I thought it was a great improvement without breaking the bank, another chance to enjoy Nemo, and a natural lead-in to the aquarium where kids will see real sea life.

We disagree, that's fine. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful discussion.

You see this username?...I didn't pick it because I thought it catchy...

The Nemo overlay ruined the seas...and with the way some stuff has gone it won't be long before I change it to EyeofOdin1...

 

[Tony the Tigger]

You see this username?...I didn't pick it because I thought it catchy...

The Nemo overlay ruined the seas...and with the way some stuff has gone it won't be long before I change it to EyeofOdin1...

It ruined the Seas for you. I like to add that qualifier for accuracy.

It did not objectively "ruin" the seas. Many people like it, and many people including myself like it better than it was before.

If it objectively "ruined" the seas, then the company would have corrected it.

 

[fngoofy]

Putting The Muppets in Liberty Square is a terrible idea. Period.

As conceieved and executed, Liberty Square, like Main Street and Frontierland, is meant to showcase a time in history and offer experiences that tie into the modern conceptions of what themes and locations resonate with that time period. Liberty Square is about early American history, and originally all buildings, shops and restaurants offered samples of life in those days, within the framework of a clean, family friendly enviroment. A silversmith, a tavern, shipyard, colonial mansion, Liberty Tree, tricorn hat shop, fife and drum corps and a government structure based on Independence Hall with the date of the constitution on it. It's no accident that The Hall of Presidents is located in the centre of the land. Though it features moments in history beyond the 1790s, the underlining themes (The Consitution, democarcy etc) are rooted in the values planted in the same time as those Liberty Trees. [If you're wondering how The Haunted Mansion fits into all of this, I suggest this article written on the subject].

A character like Sam the Eagle (let alone the rest of The Muppets), has nothing to do with any of these themes. His "patriotism" is largely played for laughs, and his existance has nothing to do with the values or time period of Liberty Square, even from a modern interpretation like Johnny Tremain. If built, the attraction/show may be cute in its own right, but it would represent another failure on the part of Disney's current corporate and creative culture to respect the groundwork that was laid for them but their predecessors. I'm not saying nothing in Liberty Square should ever change, but there are better options for the land than the work of Jim Henson.

This is the kind of "creative" thinking that gets put out on twitter by fans who have no background in design or knowledge of the company's history. Now people are paid an annual salary and are actively encouraged by upper management to think up these concepts because the underlining goal of Walt Synergy World is pushing brands, and not creating quality themed experiences that can stand on their own merit or support established design principles. Once again, Disney is imitating its competitor by beliving that theme parks are where people go to "ride the movies".

If you love this idea and think its cool, it's because you are a Disney movie fan or Muppet fan first and of theme parks second or third. It's a shame that The Magic Kingdom, a park so carefully mapped out from both a physical and conceptual standpoint continues to be chipped away by a lack of originality rooted in shameless self promotion.

[/rant]

OR
You could be completely wrong.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

OR
You could be completely wrong.

Well based on the quality of your counter argument, I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 

[Seabasealpha1]

It ruined the Seas for you. I like to add that qualifier for accuracy.

It did not objectively "ruin" the seas. Many people like it, and many people including myself like it better than it was before.

If it objectively "ruined" the seas, then the company would have corrected it.

First and foremost...if you honestly believe that the "Company" would correct anything that is terrible...then your faith is horribly misplaced in the current generation running the show. Most of the decisions like:

• the Seas
  
• Norway's murder
  
• Stitch (one and done-how 'bout you?)
• the Yeti (and the fact that they still advertise it as being the big deal it is not)
• the death of and continued rotting of Wonders of Life
  
• Horizons (need I say more there?)
  
• the Imagination pavilion and it's horrible history of bad attempts to out-do what wasn't broken as a concept to begin with (could have been a classic as much as ANY Magic Kingdom classic!)
  
• Tomorrowland at Magic Kingdom in general..what a dump!
  
• the ever-disappearing AA's of the Energy Pavilion
  
• the cheapness of Dinoland USA (cheap name from the get-go)
• the empty show building behind the Japan pavilion
• the fact that Hollywood Studios has literally half a park left and is STILL open for the same rate as the other parks..even though they're trying to "re-format"

and Epcot as a concept...being sold out and abused piece by piece.

...there is NO end to some of the stupidity and bad stewardship...

I can keep making this list go on...

The only thing they want corrected is the weight of the wallet...it should always be heavier... and if you think they're doing such "miracle work" as of late...take a look at these firings and resignations these last few weeks...things ain't going well...and while many Disney "fans" choose to overlook it (and that's their business) or just "drink the Kool-Aid"...

I ain't one of them. I'm holding out hope for a return to sanity...and from the looks of it, it's gonna be a while.

Add all the qualifiers you want...you're just shooting a BB Gun at a freight train...objectivity is in the eye of the beholder...

 

[ford91exploder]

IMO, its like when you see someone with an older car who obviously went to the auto store and bought all the cheap plastic decals to make their car look better or faster. Is the car actually improved in any way? No, its just a polished turd.

View attachment 137816

Gods above that's an ugly truck.

 

[ford91exploder]

Like I said, you have made all good points.
It's just tough to make any judgement on this when we have no idea what we are getting.
If it turns out to be something that is contained to the inside of the second floor, will it really hurt the LS theming more than say Mickey inside the theater? Who's to say restraint won't be used?

Obviously is Sam is hanging out of a window yelling, that's just unnecessary.
And, overall, I think it's a silly addition when the Muppets have their own courtyard in DHS.

Why not just bring back, and move the Fife and Drum Corps to LS if they need a new show in that land.

Equity performers instead of CP'ers in foam

 

[Blairnicol]

IMO, its like when you see someone with an older car who obviously went to the auto store and bought all the cheap plastic decals to make their car look better or faster. Is the car actually improved in any way? No, its just a polished turd.

View attachment 137816

This person needs their credit card taken away. So much no.

 

[Mike S]

So basically it comes down to a difference of opinion in that you think Nemo cheapens the Seas, any hint of Muppet will cheapen HoP, and Frozen cheapens (or worse) Norway.

I respect your opinion, I can understand your arguments. I guess I just take it less seriously in the context of a WDW park. I expect to see cartoon characters everywhere, even where they typically might not "belong." Cartoon fish and real fish are not at odds to me. Remember, to fully enjoy the film, and to little kids, there is a willful suspension of disbelief in that Nemo IS a real fish (who can talk, etc) and the ride places him squarely in that context with real fish. I thought it was a great improvement without breaking the bank, another chance to enjoy Nemo, and a natural lead-in to the aquarium where kids will see real sea life.

We disagree, that's fine. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful discussion.

And therein lies the problem. That wasn't always an expectation for every area of a theme park made by Disney. If it was EPCOT Center would've been a miserable failure and would've taken the company down with it. That's how much was invested in it.

 

[ford91exploder]

This person needs their credit card taken away. So much no.

Yes ruined an otherwise nice truck