The Force Awakens - spoiler thread

[lebeau]

I thought Han and Chewie deserved much better than to turn back into a life of smuggling. The entire trilogy you see Han slowly go from being a selfish, reckless pirate to a selfless, responsible leader and human. The last part of the final battle in ANH, when all is lost until Han comes back to knock Vader's ship out - that meant so much because we all thought he sold out and stayed a smuggler. JJ threw that all out the window and it kinda ****ed me off.

You touch on something that mildly annoyed me about Episode VII.

In a way, the new movie completely discounts everything that happened in the original trilogy. At the start of TFA, every victory from the original movies has been overturned. Sure, the Empire and Rebellion have new names now. But essentially we're right back where we started with the first movie except things are arguably worse. The Death Star is bigger and destroys multiple planets at the same time.

How did we get to this point in 30 years? How did Luke, Han and Leia allow this to happen? From what we know, this new predicament is all their fault. If they had done a better job raising/training Ben, none of this would have happened. Obviously, there are details yet to be revealed, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that after everything he has been through Luke would just walk off into the desert after his nephew pulled an Anakin Skywalker. And were the leaders of the Rebellion really so inept that they couldn't set up a form of government that would prevent the rise of the First Order?

I realize a new threat needed to arise in order to have new movies. But by making the new threat the same as the old one in everything but name, it feels like all our heroes did was make things worse.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If she held her own against a fully trained and in control Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, then I think this has merit. However, there are a few things that seem to be getting lost in the criticism of this scene.

1) Kylo Ren was shot. He is injured.
2) Kylo Ren consistently has a conflict between the light and dark sides of the Force. This means that he focus is divided somewhat, thus never able to fully use his abilities to their maximum potential.
3) Kylo Ren is still a Jedi in training. General Snoake indicated that he needs to return to complete his training.
4) Rey is an experienced fighter, as evidenced in the opening scenes on Jakku.
5) Rey is unpolished in her use of the Force, but she's not helpless with a weapon.

6) Kylo Ren is the direct offspring of a non-Jedi (Solo) and the sister of a Jedi (Leia). If Rey is the offpsring of Luke Skywalker, a trained Jedi, then there stands to reason that she inherently has superior untapped potential using the Force than Kylo Ren. This part of the story has yet to be revealed.

I also think there are small bits of Rey's dialogue that get glossed over. She seems to have some awareness of the Force, Jedi, Rebellion, etc. Also, if she is someone's descendant, especially Luke's or even another Jedi, then she would have had some training before being left on Jakku since we know that Training starts very early.

 

[Tony Perkis]

I also think there are small bits of Rey's dialogue that get glossed over. She seems to have some awareness of the Force, Jedi, Rebellion, etc. Also, if she is someone's descendant, especially Luke's or even another Jedi, then she would have had some training before being left on Jakku since we know that Training starts very early.

Exactly. None of us know what happened before she got dropped off on Jakku.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You touch on something that mildly annoyed me about Episode VII.

In a way, the new movie completely discounts everything that happened in the original trilogy. At the start of TFA, every victory from the original movies has been overturned. Sure, the Empire and Rebellion have new names now. But essentially we're right back where we started with the first movie except things are arguably worse. The Death Star is bigger and destroys multiple planets at the same time.

How did we get to this point in 30 years? How did Luke, Han and Leia allow this to happen? From what we know, this new predicament is all their fault. If they had done a better job raising/training Ben, none of this would have happened. Obviously, there are details yet to be revealed, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that after everything he has been through Luke would just walk off into the desert after his nephew pulled an Anakin Skywalker. And were the leaders of the Rebellion really so inept that they couldn't set up a form of government that would prevent the rise of the First Order?

I realize a new threat needed to arise in order to have new movies. But by making the new threat the same as the old one in everything but name, it feels like all our heroes did was make things worse.

This seems to be covered in some of the new Expanded Universr materials with the First Order and Resistance being pretty much limited to the Outer Rim, both being ignored by the New Republic.

 

[lebeau]

This seems to be covered in some of the new Expanded Universr materials with the First Order and Resistance being pretty much limited to the Outer Rim, both being ignored by the New Republic.

My stance on the EU has always been that any explanation that requires me to go outside of the movies automatically fails. The movies need to stand on their own.

 

[Tony Perkis]

This seems to be covered in some of the new Expanded Universr materials with the First Order and Resistance being pretty much limited to the Outer Rim, both being ignored by the New Republic.

Lucasfilm confirmed that the expanded universe is no longer canon.

 

[fractal]

You touch on something that mildly annoyed me about Episode VII.

In a way, the new movie completely discounts everything that happened in the original trilogy. At the start of TFA, every victory from the original movies has been overturned. Sure, the Empire and Rebellion have new names now. But essentially we're right back where we started with the first movie except things are arguably worse. The Death Star is bigger and destroys multiple planets at the same time.

How did we get to this point in 30 years? How did Luke, Han and Leia allow this to happen? From what we know, this new predicament is all their fault. If they had done a better job raising/training Ben, none of this would have happened. Obviously, there are details yet to be revealed, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that after everything he has been through Luke would just walk off into the desert after his nephew pulled an Anakin Skywalker. And were the leaders of the Rebellion really so inept that they couldn't set up a form of government that would prevent the rise of the First Order?

I realize a new threat needed to arise in order to have new movies. But by making the new threat the same as the old one in everything but name, it feels like all our heroes did was make things worse.

Yes, totally agree. Even if it's in the EU, as you said the movies need to stand alone. At least spend some time explaining things more. JJ chose an effect laden "flashback", I would have preferred something like the 10 minutes of dialogue between Obi Wan and Luke when they first met. It's like he has ADD and can't wait for the next laser shot and lens flare.

 

[Tony Perkis]

You touch on something that mildly annoyed me about Episode VII.

In a way, the new movie completely discounts everything that happened in the original trilogy. At the start of TFA, every victory from the original movies has been overturned. Sure, the Empire and Rebellion have new names now. But essentially we're right back where we started with the first movie except things are arguably worse. The Death Star is bigger and destroys multiple planets at the same time.

I don't see it as the new film discounting what happened in the original trilogy. The original trilogy told the story of the Rebel Alliance vs. the Empire. By the end of the Return of the Jedi, the Empire had been defeated. But just because one evil was eradicated, doesn't mean all evil is gone forever. Every group like that has a band of overzealous and dangerous radicals within its following, and the First Order was born out of the ideals set by the Empire. The Resistance isn't the Rebel Alliance, and the First Order isn't the Empire.

You could argue that the bigger and better Death Star is the product of 30 years of advanced technology.

How did we get to this point in 30 years? How did Luke, Han and Leia allow this to happen? From what we know, this new predicament is all their fault. If they had done a better job raising/training Ben, none of this would have happened. Obviously, there are details yet to be revealed, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that after everything he has been through Luke would just walk off into the desert after his nephew pulled an Anakin Skywalker. And were the leaders of the Rebellion really so inept that they couldn't set up a form of government that would prevent the rise of the First Order?

The First Order recruited Kylo Ren, one of the last remaining Jedi. The only person outside of him that could have known about the birth of the First Order and their nefarious plans was probably Luke Skywalker, but he went into exile after Ren turned on him and killed a number of Jedi-in-training. Han was smuggling after Ren turned, so he probably wouldn't know about the First Order's development until it was too late. We don't have a timeline in terms of when the Resistance was born, and when Leia became the de facto General, so it's tough to know if they were born in reaction to the First Order's assembly or beforehand.

 

[lebeau]

Lucasfilm confirmed that the expanded universe is no longer canon.

Agreed. But people are still using it to explain plot points for Episode VII. Apparently JJ borrowed ideas from the EU (from what I hear from fans of the EU anyway).

Yes, totally agree. Even if it's in the EU, as you said the movies need to stand alone. At least spend some time explaining things more. JJ chose an effect laden "flashback", I would have preferred something like the 10 minutes of dialogue between Obi Wan and Luke when they first met. It's like he has ADD and can't wait for the next laser shot and lens flare.

I'm kind of assuming that JJ was given a checklist of things he needed to set up for future movies and questions he was supposed to raise without answering. I felt like his hands might have been tied on certain issues. Pure speculation on my part.

I understand wanting to go back to the original status quo. It allowed them to make a movie that feels "Star Wars" because it's basically a remake. But by playing it safe, the filmmakers eliminated any chance they may have had at greatness. They aimed right for the middle and maybe exceeded it by a bit.

 

[fractal]

You are entitled to your opinion, but let's be clear: Episode 7 has been very well regarded (so far) by both professional critics and the general public. In fact, I've seen a number of people who were anxious about Disney being involved in the franchise who were relieved by the result. The pretense that people like TFA because they are some pixie dist snorters and love everything Disney doesn't seem to hold much water.

Sure, maybe on these specific message board, people might be influenced by an affinity to Disney in viewing the move more positively, but that doesn't come near explaining the widespead opinions on the film. the film is 95% positive on Rotten Tomatoes and 81 on Metacritic and you don't get ratings like that by being a bad film.

Which is unfortunate because we're are going to more of the same lazy, mediocre storytelling. For the record, there are a number of critics slamming the movie for many of the "copycat" reasons I and others have given. Other critics will only look at the movie as a stand alone and judge on things like pace, visual appeal, direction, acting, etc. If you read the reviews, many that show as a "fresh" go through the weaknesses that the blind fanboys ignore. My rating for the movie overall is a very generous 7 out of 10, which would be considered "fresh" but I had many problems with it. If I see another Star Wars movie with a Death Star it will be my last.

 

[lebeau]

I don't see it as the new film discounting what happened in the original trilogy. The original trilogy told the story of the Rebel Alliance vs. the Empire. By the end of the Return of the Jedi, the Empire had been defeated. But just because one evil was eradicated, doesn't mean all evil is gone forever. Every group like that has a band of overzealous and dangerous radicals within its following, and the First Order was born out of the ideals set by the Empire. The Resistance isn't the Rebel Alliance, and the First Order isn't the Empire.

Yeah they are. The only difference we have seen is the name. For all intents and purposes, this movie hit the reset button.

The First Order recruited Kylo Ren, one of the last remaining Jedi. The only person outside of him that could have known about the birth of the First Order and their nefarious plans was probably Luke Skywalker, but he went into exile after Ren turned on him and killed a number of Jedi-in-training. Han was smuggling after Ren turned, so he probably wouldn't know about the First Order's development until it was too late. We don't have a timeline in terms of when the Resistance was born, and when Leia became the de facto General, so it's tough to know if they were born in reaction to the First Order's assembly or beforehand.

None of that is in the movie. I'm sure some of it will be addressed and maybe when it is I will feel differently. But Luke is standing right there when Kylo Ren turns on his students. He really just let him walk away to join the First Order and went into hiding? Han really just shrugged and went back to smuggling?

Felt weak to me.

 

[Tony Perkis]

Yeah they are. The only difference we have seen is the name. For all intents and purposes, this movie hit the reset button.

I really don't think they are the same. The First Order has different leadership, different members, different everything. My impression is that they were born out of the ideals of the Empire because they are an overzealous cult following with resources. This isn't the Emperor failing with venture 1 and then setting up venture 2.

None of that is in the movie. I'm sure some of it will be addressed and maybe when it is I will feel differently. But Luke is standing right there when Kylo Ren turns on his students. He really just let him walk away to join the First Order and went into hiding? Han really just shrugged and went back to smuggling?

None of that is in the film, but I'm making some deductions based on what we may know or can make an educated guess about. The Resistance, just by the name itself, implies that it was created as a response to something, my guess being the First Order. The Resistance is a force against the actions of that group, and they are not a governing body. Since they aren't a governing body, I don't get the impression they have the resources to fully prevent the First Order's rise.

As for Luke and Han just letting Kylo Ren join the First Order, this is again an instance where I don't think we have the full story yet. When Kylo Ren turned, was the First Order well known and considered a threat? Was General Snoake a known adversary at that time? I have a hard time believing they'd simply let him join an Empire substitute, so I would be willing to wager that the First Order as portrayed in this film was not the circumstance when Ren followed them into battle.

 

[lebeau]

I really don't think they are the same. The First Order has different leadership, different members, different everything. My impression is that they were born out of the ideals of the Empire because they are an overzealous cult following with resources. This isn't the Emperor failing with venture 1 and then setting up venture 2.

No but as far as I am concerned, that's a distinction without a difference. If it quacks like the empire, it's the empire.

None of that is in the film, but I'm making some deductions based on what we may know or can make an educated guess about. The Resistance, just by the name itself, implies that it was created as a response to something, my guess being the First Order. The Resistance is a force against the actions of that group, and they are not a governing body. Since they aren't a governing body, I don't get the impression they have the resources to fully prevent the First Order's rise.

As for Luke and Han just letting Kylo Ren join the First Order, this is again an instance where I don't think we have the full story yet. When Kylo Ren turned, was the First Order well known and considered a threat? Was General Snoake a known adversary at that time? I have a hard time believing they'd simply let him join an Empire substitute, so I would be willing to wager that the First Order as portrayed in this film was not the circumstance when Ren followed them into battle.

Right. I can come up with theories. But from what was presented in the movie, it seems like a stretch. Maybe they have some great backstory which we will get in three years. For now, it feels like they just copied and pasted the status quo form the original on a new movie as a form of risk avoidance.

My prediction is that the movies will largely gloss over the rise of Kylo Ren and the First Order because the details don't make a lot of sense.

 

[fractal]

http://www.patriotledger.com/article/20151216/ENTERTAINMENT/151217353/2055/ENTERTAINMENT


http://www.filmcomment.com/blog/deep-focus-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

 

[Tony Perkis]

No but as far as I am concerned, that's a distinction without a difference. If it quacks like the empire, it's the empire.

I think it's an import distinction to make, if just to understand the new sects and groups established between VI and VII.

Right. I can come up with theories. But from what was presented in the movie, it seems like a stretch. Maybe they have some great backstory which we will get in three years. For now, it feels like they just copied and pasted the status quo form the original on a new movie as a form of risk avoidance.

My prediction is that the movies will largely gloss over the rise of Kylo Ren and the First Order because the details don't make a lot of sense.

You're right, they are theories. But Kasdan co-wrote this film, and he has a hand in Episode VIII. I bet Kylo Ren's turn and rise will definitely be expanded upon. I actually think that's one of the few near-guarantees on what the subsequent films will tackle, because that character's development is clearly not complete.

 

[doctornick]

Which is unfortunate because we're are going to more of the same lazy, mediocre storytelling. For the record, there are a number of critics slamming the movie for many of the "copycat" reasons I and others have given. Other critics will only look at the movie as a stand alone and judge on things like pace, visual appeal, direction, acting, etc. If you read the reviews, many that show as a "fresh" go through the weaknesses that the blind fanboys ignore. My rating for the movie overall is a very generous 7 out of 10, which would be considered "fresh" but I had many problems with it. If I see another Star Wars movie with a Death Star it will be my last.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the movie doesn't have flaws (it does) or that critics have been universal in assessing it as a quality film (they have not). Yes, even those giving the film the thumbs up have noted problems.

That said, the reviews have overall been far more positive than negative. The post I was responding to made an implication that people who liked this film or defended it were doing so out of a sense of loyalty to Disney which is IMHO absurd. The film has been (generally) well regarded by a wide array of people, from professional film critics to die hard Star Wars nerds to casual fans. I don't think you can pigeonhole the support as coming from any one group or type of moviewatcher.

 

[flynnibus]

Lucasfilm confirmed that the expanded universe is no longer canon.

The OLD EU.. yes.. but Disney/Lucas have been filling in their own prep material since

 

[lebeau]

You are entitled to your opinion, but let's be clear: Episode 7 has been very well regarded (so far) by both professional critics and the general public.

You could have said the same thing about The Phantom Menace after its opening weekend. Just sayin'.

 

[Tony Perkis]

The OLD EU.. yes.. but Disney/Lucas have been filling in their own prep material since

That still stands. Disney and Lucasfilm can take whatever they want from the expanded universe and make it canon in future films, but everything previously established as canon no longer is.

 

[danlb_2000]

If she held her own against a fully trained and in control Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, then I think this has merit. However, there are a few things that seem to be getting lost in the criticism of this scene.

1) Kylo Ren was shot. He is injured.
2) Kylo Ren consistently has a conflict between the light and dark sides of the Force. This means that he focus is divided somewhat, thus never able to fully use his abilities to their maximum potential.
3) Kylo Ren is still a Jedi in training. General Snoake indicated that he needs to return to complete his training.
4) Rey is an experienced fighter, as evidenced in the opening scenes on Jakku.
5) Rey is unpolished in her use of the Force, but she's not helpless with a weapon.
6) She didn't beat Kylo Ren. The destabilizing of the planet separated the two mid fight, thus prematurely ending it.

7) Kylo Ren is the direct offspring of a non-Jedi (Solo) and the sister of a Jedi (Leia). If Rey is the offspring of Luke Skywalker, a trained Jedi, then there stands to reason that she inherently has superior untapped potential using the Force than Kylo Ren. This part of the story has yet to be revealed.

Not only is Kylo Ren injured, but he was injured by Chewie's bow caster, which earlier in the movie they made a deliberate point of demonstrating is a very powerful weapon. Also, Snoke asked Kylo to capture Rey, not kill her, which makes the fight even trickier for him.