The Force Awakens - spoiler thread

flynnibus

Premium Member
The Force called out to Rey, not the inanimate lightsaber. Maybe that's a subtle difference, but it's not inconsistent with what we've seen in the past in SW. Force sensitive beings often get "feelings".

Also, this line of thought is played out where Kylo can't get the lightsaber to come to him.. as if a 'good' lightsaber resists 'bad' people. This whole 'the light can resist the dark' is as if JJ were copying Harry Potter/Voldemort and their wands. Instead of the classic Star Wars which is 'which is more powerful' not the dark can't touch the light kind of stuff.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
People are seeing what they want to see, they won't be convinced. It was just a rebranded episode 3 with some elements from 4 and 5 thrown in. I am walking away from this thread, and probably the forum for a while. Some people here are so vile, it is really sad. Only one opinion matters, the one that supports whatever crap Disney shovels in your direction. :(

You are entitled to your opinion, but let's be clear: Episode 7 has been very well regarded (so far) by both professional critics and the general public. In fact, I've seen a number of people who were anxious about Disney being involved in the franchise who were relieved by the result. The pretense that people like TFA because they are some pixie dist snorters and love everything Disney doesn't seem to hold much water.

Sure, maybe on these specific message board, people might be influenced by an affinity to Disney in viewing the move more positively, but that doesn't come near explaining the widespead opinions on the film. the film is 95% positive on Rotten Tomatoes and 81 on Metacritic and you don't get ratings like that by being a bad film.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Also, this line of thought is played out where Kylo can't get the lightsaber to come to him.. as if a 'good' lightsaber resists 'bad' people. This whole 'the light can resist the dark' is as if JJ were copying Harry Potter/Voldemort and their wands. Instead of the classic Star Wars which is 'which is more powerful' not the dark can't touch the light kind of stuff.

I think you are unnecessarily reading into it. The implication is that Rey is raw but very powerful in the use of the Force and just was able to overpower Kylo Ren's skills. Not that the lightsaber "chose" anyone.

Besides that, there was some element of cinematography and "surprise" in having the lightsaber fly past Kylo and go to Rey. I'm all for things sticking to canon, but at some point entertainment is the main goal and there has to be some suspension of disbelief.
 

P_Radden

Well-Known Member
I want to know more about these guys around Ren:
kyloren.jpg
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I think you are unnecessarily reading into it. The implication is that Rey is raw but very powerful in the use of the Force and just was able to overpower Kylo Ren's skills. Not that the lightsaber "chose" anyone.

Besides that, there was some element of cinematography and "surprise" in having the lightsaber fly past Kylo and go to Rey. I'm all for things sticking to canon, but at some point entertainment is the main goal and there has to be some suspension of disbelief.

It's portrayed as he's trying and failing.. THEN she does the same. I believe there is an earlier instance of this in the film too that I'm not recalling just yet where Kylo is 'rejected' like that... mainly with Rey's interrogation.. where without even knowing how to resist, somehow it's painful or difficult for Kylo to get in Rey's head vs anyone else.

The dark side clouded the jedi's view... it's never been portrayed that the light clouds the dark... only that they can resist. Yet here's Rey, resisting without even knowing. I know in EPI its lead on that the ones strong in the force can do things they don't understand (ala Marvel mutants) but I think it came across as 'incompatible' and not 'power struggle'... because it's not till later in the struggle do you see Rey actually 'gaining'.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
It's portrayed as he's trying and failing.. THEN she does the same. I believe there is an earlier instance of this in the film too that I'm not recalling just yet where Kylo is 'rejected' like that... mainly with Rey's interrogation.. where without even knowing how to resist, somehow it's painful or difficult for Kylo to get in Rey's head vs anyone else. .

I didn't get that at all when watching. I saw it as both Kylo and Rey trying at the same time and Rey overpowering his Force abilities. We didn't see Rey in the shot making the effort in order to allow for the "surprise" of the lightsaber going to her (I put surprise in quotes because it was fairly obvious that this was going to happen but that the goal from a filmmaking prospective).

the entire buildup of both of those scenes you mention is that Rey is very strong in the Force as to be able to use it without even any training (or maybe some distant training we don't know about yet). Kinda like Anakin being able to do pod racing because his reflexes were so quick, which was actually him using the Force to tell the future.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I think you are unnecessarily reading into it. The implication is that Rey is raw but very powerful in the use of the Force and just was able to overpower Kylo Ren's skills. Not that the lightsaber "chose" anyone.

Besides that, there was some element of cinematography and "surprise" in having the lightsaber fly past Kylo and go to Rey. I'm all for things sticking to canon, but at some point entertainment is the main goal and there has to be some suspension of disbelief.
Suspension of disbelief is not a choice nor does it mean just accepting anything. It is about maintaining a level of consistency within a fictional universe. I don't think Rey's use of the Force came across as fantastical based on her dialogue and flashback, but given that it is a wide reaction it would mean that Abrams failed to properly build up her fantastic jump in ability so that disbelief would be suspended.
 

P_Radden

Well-Known Member
agree, and she barely had things to do other than act "macho commander".
She didnt even get involved in a real fight! :/
would have loved a big fight between her and Chewie..

And that is my single biggest disappointment with the movie. I was really excited about the character of Phasma, so that was a big let down to not have her play a bigger role and kick some .

I want to be like "Dang, Phasma is BADASS!!" but I've got to see it to believe it.
 

noidwork

Member
First off, I loved the film, but that's not to say it didn't have it's problems. The entire thing was a rehash, but I get why, they needed to play it safe to get the initial installment off the ground. Disney, with $4B on the line couldn't get overly ambitious, they needed a sure fire homerun, so went to the tried and true formula. I have every confidence they will shake it up in the future now that they have a "history" of making good Star Wars films. I think they've done a generally good job of this in the Marvel universe, though after 10 years, I'm very ready to move beyond Infinity Stones. Still, all in all, the different franchises have had different feels and has led to a more dynamic universe. Future Star Wars should get better by becoming more diverse as well.

What really bothered me the most though was the scope of the movie universe. I get that Star Wars is about the people, but what's captured my attention in the past has been the size and scale of the universe. In RotJ, there were many Star Destroyers and many Rebel Cruisers. The action in Attack of the Clones and in Revenge of the Sith involved massive fleets and armies fighting important battles. (Discussing intent, not execution. I'm not saying the prequel battles were done better). In TFA, the best the resistance can muster is 2 squadrons of fighters against the biggest threat the galaxy has ever faced? I'm not ignoring the fact that the 1st Order just destroyed the Republic Fleet and headquarters, I'm actually thinking that drives my point home further. In the old universe, one would expect the Republic to have multiple fleets to patrol a galaxy with thousands of worlds. Here, they have 1 fleet, and it just stays at the capitol planet? That seems so small. Why is the Resistance's military might roughly equivalent to the Air National Guard for the state of Vermont?

As for the size of the universe, it also felt so tiny. In ANH, there was the scene on board the Falcon where Luke is training with the mask on while they travel. That scene added to the sense of the scale of the universe because transportation was not instantaneous. It takes time to get places. Here, in TFA, Star Killer Base fires from one system, it can be scene in the sky of another system, and hits a third system, presumably very far away since the premise here seems to be that the Republic doesn't care about the 1st Order since they are so far away. The scale of this universe seems tiny. The final assault on SKB is only launched after confirmation of the shields being down. Match that against RotJ when they are rushing to get the shields down before the fleet arrives. It took time to get across the galaxy so things had to be coordinated.

Finally, the final scenes. I expected Rey and Chewie to take off and have the movie end, just as it did in ESB. The fact that they took off and found Luke in 10 seconds just made me feel like they didn't have to look very hard. I get that you need to suspend disbelief, but this post isn't about that, I was totally into it. It just felt like this is a regional conflict, and not something that affects the entire galaxy. The scope of everything here felt all wrong to me.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
Well to be fair, they are Jedi and sith using the force. It all was supposed to be heavily choreographed and they were supposed to know the next move. They even talk about it in EP1 when Quigon says Anakin can see things before they happen and that's why he is great at pod racing. Personally I think it would make less sense if it was more raw. They are all Jedi masters unlike the Rey/Ren fight in TFA that was very sloppy on both sides.
If that's the reason Lucas wants to use for why the fights were so stylized and choreographed, that's fine. The film then runs into the problem of why did Lucas give Jedi this sort of fighting foresight to begin with, because now each fight starts with the uphill battle of creating memorable action where the stakes and circumstances are generally predetermined.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
Agree. SW fandom owes Lucas a huge debt of gratitude for the franchise. But in the prequels, he completely forgot/ignored/threw out everything fans loved about the original trilogy.
Honestly, it's worse than that, because he's retroactively changing the original trilogy with conflicting ideas that don't fit in his own universe. Why is young Anakin one of the force ghosts at the end of Return of the Jedi? Young Anakin killed children and embraced the dark side, causing an imbalance to the Force. Old Anakin destroyed the Emperor and obliterated the Empire's rule over the galaxy, thus redeeming himself.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
Suspension of disbelief is not a choice nor does it mean just accepting anything. It is about maintaining a level of consistency within a fictional universe. I don't think Rey's use of the Force came across as fantastical based on her dialogue and flashback, but given that it is a wide reaction it would mean that Abrams failed to properly build up her fantastic jump in ability so that disbelief would be suspended.
If she held her own against a fully trained and in control Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, then I think this has merit. However, there are a few things that seem to be getting lost in the criticism of this scene.

1) Kylo Ren was shot. He is injured.
2) Kylo Ren consistently has a conflict between the light and dark sides of the Force. This means that he focus is divided somewhat, thus never able to fully use his abilities to their maximum potential.
3) Kylo Ren is still a Jedi in training. General Snoake indicated that he needs to return to complete his training.
4) Rey is an experienced fighter, as evidenced in the opening scenes on Jakku.
5) Rey is unpolished in her use of the Force, but she's not helpless with a weapon.
6) She didn't beat Kylo Ren. The destabilizing of the planet separated the two mid fight, thus prematurely ending it.

7) Kylo Ren is the direct offspring of a non-Jedi (Solo) and the sister of a Jedi (Leia). If Rey is the offspring of Luke Skywalker, a trained Jedi, then there stands to reason that she inherently has superior untapped potential using the Force than Kylo Ren. This part of the story has yet to be revealed.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
I love this quote so much and its something that bugs me about modern action films. I can't stand to watch the same car chases and exploding buildings if there is no character driven emotion or the stakes aren't raised. Without a good story and likeable characters, the fight sequences are just dull in my opinion.
You know what film this year combined great characters and hyper-stylized action? Mad Max: Fury Road.
 

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