"The FastPass Question"

["El Gran Magnifico"]

I'm pretty sure what the poster described doesn't necessarily put him or her in the upper 1%. In any event, I didn't get the feeling the poster was bragging about success, just explaining that some AP holders do in fact spend a lot of their entertainment dollars at WDW.

I used to. I don't as much anymore. It's not because I'm trying to "Do Disney on the Cheap". It's because a lot of my meal revenue is going elsewhere. Even if I eat on Property its rare that I eat at a Disney run place. Shula's, Polite Pig, Bull and Bear, Homecoming, Raglan, Boathouse, Yak and Yeti, Via Napoli, and the like seem to get the most of my food budget. The Disney places are taking too many shortcuts and it shows - both in the value and the quality. There are also many quality options a mere 10-15 minutes outside the gates.

I would love to eat more at the Disney places. If they would address the issues that they are having, that is.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yes, it is also true WDW wants crowds in some places, but that is only part of the total picture.

I don't really think FP= anyone being in two places at once. I know it was sold that way, but I don't find it an accurate way to think about FP. I'm certain for myself, I've never actually spent more time shopping just because I got a FP.

Also, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, lines are the average of FP and standby. If everyone rode the same 6 attractions, and everyone did 3 FP and 3 standby, they'd pretty much all come out the same. For every minute a FP saves, it equally adds a minute to the standby wait. In principal, they cancel each other out.

Though...as I said earlier, in practice, when everyone only got 3 FP, a significant number of people left about an hour after their 3 FP were done for the day. It wasn't that people weren't still using up their FP, it was that once people could no longer get more, they saw long lines and left in droves, but they didn't pay attention to just how much the crowd was thinning. They were only focused on not having any more FP.

Walt Disney World wants crowds everywhere. It’s a key part of why they want data on usage. They will scale back capacity to maintain crowding.

Shopping is not the only way FastPass allows you to occupy two spaces. Just being on a walkway means you’re there taking up space contributing to crowding instead of being in a queue. This is why FastPass is not just cancelled out by Stanb-By, you are able to do other things using up additional space and capacity at shops, restaurants, other attractions and just walkways.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that people just left after using their three FastPass+ reservations.

There are only to ways to actually deal with crowding, limit attendance or increase capacity. Disney only wants you doing about 8 experiences (a category broader than attractions) over a whole day. Over an 8 - 10 hour day that is one per hour or less. A park with decent capacity would be aiming for 1.5 - 2 attractions per guest per hour, totaling more in a day than several Walt Disney World parks actually offer. With such capacity there would be less desire for a virtual queue or reservation system because wait times would be significantly lower across the board. Yes, there would still be certain marquee attractions that command longer waits but there would be much more available instead of just those few attractions. The parks need more capacity, and really in the vein of C Tickets that won’t induce significant demand, but Disney doesn’t know how to build such small scale attractions anymore.

 

[CAV]

Congrats on your magnificent success! The upper 1% don't fill Disney pockets anywhere close to as much as the remaining 99%.

Is being an insulting and patronizing a special skill of yours or do you have to work hard on it. I bust my back for everything I earn. If you didn't, dont hold it against those of us who did.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Is being an insulting and patronizing a special skill of yours or do you have to work hard on it. I bust my back for everything I earn. If you didn't, dont hold it against those of us who did.

I apologize, sincerely. I shouldn't have gone there. I too have worked very hard earning everything I have including paying my own way through college while working full-time. Having grown up in a lower-middle class family, these following two posts of yours just came across a bit braggadocio... hence my response. To me these basically sounded exactly what you accused ME of. Sort of boasting that since you have money (earned or not) which afford you the concierge level rooms, deluxe hotels, etc. and in addition deserve paid "cheat-the-line" passes.

Oh, the humanity! It would be like if they had value resorts and deluxe resorts, or concierge level rooms at some hotels, or counter service versus the California Grill. Or even like if some people can afford to go to WDW and some people can't. Just horribly unfair; almost like life itself.

This, I dont get. My wife and I (AP holders) go 10-12 times a year. Sometimes overnight, sometimes a weekend stay, sometimes for several day. We stay at deluxe hotels. We have sit down meals. We enjoy way overpriced alcoholic beverages. We spend thousands of dollars. If we didn't have APs, we probably would go ever couple of years.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Shopping is not the only way FastPass allows you to occupy two spaces. Just being on a walkway means you’re there taking up space contributing to crowding instead of being in a queue. This is why FastPass is not just cancelled out by Stanb-By, you are able to do other things using up additional space and capacity at shops, restaurants, other attractions and just walkways.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that people just left after using their three FastPass+ reservations.

There are only to ways to actually deal with crowding, limit attendance or increase capacity. Disney only wants you doing about 8 experiences (a category broader than attractions) over a whole day. Over an 8 - 10 hour day that is one per hour or less.

I don't know about you, but I don't feel like FP frees me up to stand around in walkways. I use it to cover as many attractions as possible, especially popular attractions.

Where I got the idea? Actual park touring. But again, that was back when FP was limited to 3 per day total.

3FP per day really sucked, but it didn't stop people from coming to WDW.

Trust me, there are MANY tools WDW can use to reduce crowding: Raise the cost sky high! Eliminate parades! Drastically cut park hours! Cut live performers! Cut transportation to WDW!

Oh wait...

 

[Chi84]

I used to. I don't as much anymore. It's not because I'm trying to "Do Disney on the Cheap". It's because a lot of my meal revenue is going elsewhere. Even if I eat on Property its rare that I eat at a Disney run place. Shula's, Polite Pig, Bull and Bear, Homecoming, Raglan, Boathouse, Yak and Yeti, Via Napoli, and the like seem to get the most of my food budget. The Disney places are taking too many shortcuts and it shows - both in the value and the quality. There are also many quality options a mere 10-15 minutes outside the gates.

I would love to eat more at the Disney places. If they would address the issues that they are having, that is.

We love many of the DS restaurants, especially Boathouse, STK and Jaleo. We rent a car and SSR is our home resort, so we can definitely check out other restaurants. We used to save quite a bit of money with TIW; if it doesn't come back, we probably will try out more non-Disney restaurants.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

the concierge level rooms, deluxe hotels, etc. and in addition deserve paid "cheat-the-line" passes.

That's a bit of a weird way to characterize people willing to pay for 3 extra FP.

To be blunt though, it wasn't much of an option.

The 3 FP had to be booked by CM's, could only be modified by CM's, and could only be booked 1 per hour with no duplicates. It had to be booked a min of 3 nights. Technically, it was $50 per person/day, or $16.67 per FP.

In theory, it was a small advantage at AK when Pandora was new, because you could use it to book FP for both Pandora rides, but otherwise the limits made it useless, especially in Epcot and HS. This was before the Star Wars and Slinky opened, so there weren't 6 attractions really worthy of a FP in either park.

If you could have booked some rides twice, or used the FP at any time, it would've been a much more attractive option.

BUT -It also was paired with club level. Club Level is like getting a QS dining plan, but only at one dining location. More or less, you get continental breakfast and snacks +beverages the rest of the day - BUT ONLY in one location: the lounge at your hotel. It is only remotely worth paying for if you actually eat there, and are willing to eat what is offered.



So just logistically the idea of 7 solid park hours plus going back an forth to the hotel for snacks was unrealistic.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

That's a bit of a weird way to characterize people willing to pay for 3 extra FP.

I think context for different conversations are getting crossed. That's not really what I meant. My comments go back to a comment by me and others about the possibility of charging a ridiculous overages so that a minute percentage of relatively wealthy people pay exorbitant amounts to get unlimited cheat-the-line passes. I dunno... now I'm confused.

 

[Marc Davis Fan]

Some thoughts based on the many insightful replies in this thread:

• Indeed, another proposed benefit of FastPass is that it could help spread crowds more evenly throughout a park, and especially prevent early-morning crowding at "entrance area attractions" like SSE and ITTBAB. However:
  • The SSE problem could be mitigated in the way they were planning to pre-COVID, with the entrance facing away from the gates, so that the crowd-flow of entering isn't directly into SSE. Placing a weenie with an attraction inside of it immediately upon entering the park was more of a crowd-flow design flaw than a necessary consequence of not having a queue reservation system.
  • ITTBAB: Why the heck are there signs for this attraction in The Oasis? The entire park is ahead of you when you're in The Oasis, so they could've had signs for any attraction pointing in the general direction of Discovery Island like that. Regardless, a lot of people are motivated to walk to Pandora or EE first now, so the problem would likely be substantially mitigated with the current attraction lineup anyway.
  • More generally, having the major, highly-advertised e-tickets at different sides of the park (e.g., Soarin and TT, FoP and EE, Splash and Space, SWGE and ToT) helps improve crowd-flow. This does not require FastPass.
  • They manipulate the posted wait time estimates (including on information boards and the app) to persuade people to walk towards some attractions over others, based on crowd levels in different areas of a park. This does not require FastPass.
  • Those "mini parades" were designed to redirect crowds based on crowd levels in different areas of a park. This does not require FastPass.
  • In sum, FastPass can potentially help accomplish crowd-flow goals, but it's not the only measure for doing so. And of course, if it increases the congestion of walkways be taking people out of standby queues, than it help create the problem that it's being expected to help mitigate.
• @Goofyernmost has provided the best description of pre- vs post-FastPass-introduction Disney I've heard:
  • I went many years before FP and yes the lines "seemed" long, but it turns out if you keep moving the time [feels] faster and all of us had a good time ... Disney lost a lot of magic when what seemed like a good idea just made things worse for everyone. ... [Before FastPass] I would start by turning left at the end of Main Street and start experiencing the attractions one after the other. No running across the park a dozen times to get the freaking FP time. ... It took the same amount of time to see it all as it does now, but was a lot less stressful. In my mind FP was one of the most over glorified and under performing idea that the big buck guys ever came up with.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't know about you, but I don't feel like FP frees me up to stand around in walkways. I use it to cover as many attractions as possible, especially popular attractions.

Where I got the idea? Actual park touring. But again, that was back when FP was limited to 3 per day total.

3FP per day really sucked, but it didn't stop people from coming to WDW.

Trust me, there are MANY tools WDW can use to reduce crowding: Raise the cost sky high! Eliminate parades! Drastically cut park hours! Cut live performers! Cut transportation to WDW!

Oh wait...

Going to other attractions is still contributing to crowding.

That you decided to leave after three FastPasses doesn’t mean others did. Like so many you only consider how FastPass benefits yourself as someone who knows the system. The limit to three FastPass+ reservations didn’t suck because you couldn’t get more but because the parks lacked sufficient capacity such that waits were higher than they would be if the parks had enough offerings.

Crowding is ultimately a function of capacity. Most of what you describe, reducing hours and offerings, reduces capacity and increases crowding. While distancing is part of the reasoning for certain cuts, the other is that Disney is still trying to maintain as much crowding as they can get away with.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I think context for different conversations are getting crossed. That's not really what I meant. My comments go back to a comment by me and others about the possibility of charging a ridiculous overages so that a minute percentage of relatively wealthy people pay exorbitant amounts to get unlimited cheat-the-line passes. I dunno... now I'm confused.

No, I got that.
Or thought I did. The person you quoted didn't specifically mention the paid FP program. I did.
The paid FP program wasn't unlimited, it was just 3 extra FP, with significant limitations, and a fairly steep price tag. I thought that's what you meant.

Mostly I was just trying to explain why it wasn't a good program.

WDW also has/had the VIP Tour Guide Program. That pretty much = Unlimited FP, and costs a crazy amount of $. But I didn't see that mentioned in this thread. IMO, at the price WDW charges, neither is/was worth the $.

WDW's experiments with paid FP have all been way overpriced. I don't see it as dividing the have and have-nots though, just a bad way to spend money. Still if someone is paying that absurd amount of money, they aren't cheating, IMO.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Going to other attractions is still contributing to crowding.

That you decided to leave after three FastPasses doesn’t mean others did. Like so many you only consider how FastPass benefits yourself as someone who knows the system. The limit to three FastPass+ reservations didn’t suck because you couldn’t get more but because the parks lacked sufficient capacity such that waits were higher than they would be if the parks had enough offerings.

Crowding is ultimately a function of capacity. Most of what you describe, reducing hours and offerings, reduces capacity and increases crowding. While distancing is part of the reasoning for certain cuts, the other is that Disney is still trying to maintain as much crowding as they can get away with.

Huh? No, I didn't leave when the FP ran out, that's how I know the park was empty. I rode BTMRR like 9 times in row.

The 3FP+ limit was bad, because as I said, people left the park early. Early in the day, it was crowded.

You think it is bad to think about WDW, how it works, and to try and make the most of what they offer?

The last two lines of my post were -I thought - obviously talking about 2020 changes, and the kind of tropes that get bandied about all the time on this forum. Maybe it wasn't so obvious. Not really worth dissecting each one here.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Huh? No, I didn't leave when the FP ran out, that's how I know the park was empty. I rode BTMRR like 9 times in row.

The 3FP+ limit was bad, because as I said, people left the park early. Early in the day, it was crowded.

You think it is bad to think about WDW, how it works, and to try and make the most of what they offer?

The last two lines of my post were -I thought - obviously talking about 2020 changes, and the kind of tropes that get bandied about all the time on this forum. Maybe it wasn't so obvious. Not really worth dissecting each one here.

Where did I say it is bad to think about how parks operate? The problem is assuming that your experiences and motivations are universal. That you can use FastPass+ to get in a lot of rides does not make that true for others or a goal of the system.

Visitation to most theme parks on most days and their design day is generally a bell curve. Attendance peaks in the middle. People were not leaving early because there was no more FastPass+ availability. The three FastPass+ limit could not have caused something that exists across the industry.

 

[CAV]

I apologize, sincerely. I shouldn't have gone there. I too have worked very hard earning everything I have including paying my own way through college while working full-time. Having grown up in a lower-middle class family, these following two posts of yours just came across a bit braggadocio... hence my response. To me these basically sounded exactly what you accused ME of. Sort of boasting that since you have money (earned or not) which afford you the concierge level rooms, deluxe hotels, etc. and in addition deserve paid "cheat-the-line" passes.

You should have stopped at, "I apologize, sincerely."

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

You should have stopped at, "I apologize, sincerely."

Sorry for my abhorrent conduct.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Nowhere in this thread did I engage in, "assuming [my] experiences are motivations are universal.' It is the opposite of what I have posted throughout this entire thread.

On page 1, I said FP rewards return customers, that it turns many people off, and that it penalizes anyone who can't prebook 3 FP. (those that go to WDW on short notice).

On page #2, I said, "People who don't own smartphones are disadvantaged under FP+"

On page 3, I said, "Like much of WDW, if you understand the system, it is possible to develop a beneficial [touring] strategy." I also said, "FP+ rewards people who are willing to use their smartphones in the parks," and "It sucks" if you don't/can't.

I thought the point of the thread was to discus the pros and cons of FP, as the OP stated on the first page, and I've attempted to have that discussion, but it doesn't appear to me that you wish to have a rational discussion at this point.

 

[phillip9698]

That is correct it is the average of the two. Which means that as far as the time standing in line it is absolutely no different then if it was just one continuous moving line. The same number of people will ride in an hour. There is a point where a FP will save time waiting for a ride for anyone that happens to hold a FP. If you don't and you want to see the attraction you have to use standby. Since FP and that was even with the original paper pass, the standby line is a LOT longer. So those of us with a FP would smugly rush up the FP line and internally, and sometimes externally, laugh at those stuck in Standby. The part that they don't seem to remember is that there will be that they will find themselves in that same line with a much longer wait while others smugly passed by them. The amount of time will average out to be the same as if every attraction just had one steady line. On top of that since the times don't always work out FP's create a situation where you don't have the time to go on another attraction so lets add up a few more hours waiting for your window to open therefore causing you to not see as many things overall than you would have if all were that same.

It doesn't equal out to the same amount of time for the person in the standby line because 70-80% of the capacity of the ride is accounted for by people that aren't physically in the line. So in the past a certain starting point in the line would equate to a 25 minute wait but now that same point may be triple that due to the invisible fast pass group. Now in the past if the line was at the 75 minute point a lot of people wouldn't get in that line, they would go somewhere else and come.back later when the line was shorter.

And to that point they could go somewhere else because people can only physically occupy one queue. With the FP system people can occupy 4 queues at once, inflating the standby line time of 4 rides.

 

[Goofyernmost]

It doesn't equal out to the same amount of time for the person in the standby line because 70-80% of the capacity of the ride is accounted for by people that aren't physically in the line. So in the past a certain starting point in the line would equate to a 25 minute wait but now that same point may be triple that due to the invisible fast pass group. Now in the past if the line was at the 75 minute point a lot of people wouldn't get in that line, they would go somewhere else and come.back later when the line was shorter.

And to that point they could go somewhere else because people can only physically occupy one queue. With the FP system people can occupy 4 queues at once, inflating the standby line time of 4 rides.

You'll have to explain that a little clearer. You are saying that it doesn't equal because it is actually overall longer then without FP. Or did I read you incorrectly?

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

There are plenty of times that the FP+ and standby waits are exactly the same. A FP for most WDW shows is effectively the same as waiting standby.

Nor is it always the case that FP = a shorter wait time. In some cases, the standby can even be faster, because standby riders don't have to scan their band. I can think of a number of rides where this happens, especially early/late in the day, or whenever a ride reopens after a mid-day shut down.

Most of the Epcot FP's are effectively no different than standby: Pixar films, Imagination, Living with the Land, Mission: Space Green, Nemo, Turtle Talk, and sometimes SE. If there is any difference at all, it is negligible (under 5 minutes).

I don't ever recall seeing any of the following at anywhere near 75 minute waits since they became FP+ attractions, even mid-afternoon on peak holiday weeks: Barnstormer, Dumbo, Small World, teacups, Aladdin, Philharmagic, Monsters, LM, Muppets, VoLM, or the live bird show. Dumbo and LM had maybe 30mmin waits when New Fantasyland was new.

 

[Kamikaze]

All very fair points. The only way a FP system for the "Haves" would be a effective is if the FP is so frickin' expensive that 99% of folks can't afford it, or refuse to pay for it. If it's somewhat affordable, like $20/day for each ticket, now everyone can afford it and wants it to skip the line. The more people who buy it, the more other people will be forced to buy it because they don't want to wait in a standby in that turns out to be 5 hrs long because 90% of people are by-passing the standby line.

You have to look at these types of things with "what's the extreme scenario" because if it can break, it will. If 90% of people are paying the extra amount to "skip the line", "skipping the line" becomes the actual line, and basically ends up in a $20 per ticket price increase. You basically have to make FP tickets double or triple the entry price to weed out us regular folks who'd rather pay a little extra to "skip the line". But then again, by making the price so expensive only the mega rich can afford it, the financially elite get yet another advantage regular folks don't. Not cool for WDW to pick their winners even more like that.

I agree. Time moves on, and technology changes everyday things, but that doesn't mean that every change is a good one. Look at Twitter and Facebook. When they first started I refused to join and when harassed by friends for not getting with the times, I explained it would be the downfall of humanity. No one needs to know everyone else's thoughts every second of the day, and most things that are in people's heads that normally aren't said... shouldn't be said, tweeted, or posted to Facebook. I didn't realize how right I was back then. I could care less if your status is "in line at the Gap buying a pair of jeans", or what Kim Kardashian's thoughts are about current events. In fact, I adamantly DON'T want to know these things. Both people who post their every thought or their make-believe lives, and those who read other people's every thought would be much better off without it. Recent times have proven this true, and it's only going to get worse.

That said , just because FP+ and using mobile phones to reserve "cheat-the-line" tickets is possible, it doesn't make it an improvement.

FYI: Even at the $15 price point at DLR, the vast majority of guests did NOT purchase MaxPass.

They are very different crowds for sure, but Disney doesn't expect 'most' guys to buy it at WDW when it happens.