"The FastPass Question"

[Pepper's Ghost]

I think people underestimate the value the FP system has (or could have) to Disney for crowd dispersal and tracking guests. Any replacement that they introduce is going to be designed in part so that guests perceive it as being a benefit for them and in part because it can be used by Disney to manipulate guest behavior and/or collect data to be analyzed. And that's not necessarily meant in a bad way. If they can release FPs or put in other measures to do a better job at making some people go east when they would normally all go west, that's a good thing.

Meh. If that were really the case and if the use of tracking people movement was meant to improve the experience, the experience wouldn't suck so much. I mean, they've been doing this for how many years now, and they STILL haven't done anything to truly improve people movement in the parks in any meaningful way. Have you felt any improvements? If not, collecting data on us for improvements ain't working. It's really just tracking whether we're spending more time in shops, restaurants, etc. Frankly, they could care less about making improvements. I mean, how much has the collection of data improved your experience? All we ever hear about now on these forums is how awful it's been the last many years. Sounds like they're using the data to degrade the entertainment experience, don't ya think?

 

[aliceismad]

I AGREE with everything you have said about lines, fast passes and especially Facebook. When one of my friends posted she had just bought 4 new tires at BJ's. I decided that was it for me. I have been going to Disneyland & World for over 40 yrs. In the old days (I know you techies will yawn) people walked around with their eyes appreciating all of the beautiful sights Disney offered. Now everyone has their noses in their cell phones texting or looking for the next FP. Boring. May as well stay home.

I agree with you, but I still use my phone at Parks to arrange FPs, check on dining reservation availability, pre-order food for pick up, and take photos.

There is a significant percentage of the population that wants to use their iphones and wants things to be interactive in that way. Because those people are moving into more of the consumer category, it benefits Disney to cater to them as well. Introducing the Play Disney Parks app is smart, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see more things like that developed in the coming years.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

It is a zero sum game. Adding FastPass inventory means taking away Stand-By inventory. Your scenario of enticing people means pushing others away as wait times increase. There was a time when Disney did do surprise FastPasses and they were a good bit of a joke because they only really work on things for which a FastPass is not actually needed.

Last time I used a Dumbo FP, the queue was empty. I obtained it about 5 minutes before using it.

Would it be good for WDW if their new $300 million dollar attraction doesn't generate 1 hour standby waits? If FoP and Rise only had 15 minute waits mid-day (pre-pandemic), that would have been a disaster.

When it comes to WDW, we love to hate to love attraction lines.

I don't think WDW adds inventory to every attraction at a fixed rate all day, but they have the ability to add inventory if they wish to draw people to a underutilized part of the park.

Picture the 8am opening of AK. If there was no FP, where would the bulk of the masses go? Either first ride in the front of the park, or the most popular ride in the park. they wouldn't automatically spread out evenly across all the attractions.

I promise, I have been taking advantage of this unevenness for many decades.

Take a ride like It's a Small World. It is big with the toddlers. What hours do toddlers tour MK? What hours was IaSw busiest before IaSw had FP? Every day it was jam packed10am-7pm, but empty after 8pm. Or at least relatively slow.

The initial distribution of FP also helps WDW even crowd distribution.

 

[aliceismad]

Meh. If that were really the case and if the use of tracking people movement was meant to improve the experience, the experience wouldn't suck so much. I mean, they've been doing this for how many years now, and they STILL haven't done anything to truly improve people movement in the parks in any meaningful way. Have you felt any improvements? If not, collecting data on us for improvements ain't working. It's really just tracking whether we're spending more time in shops, restaurants, etc. Frankly, they could care less about making improvements. I mean, how much has the collection of data improved your experience? All we ever hear about now on these forums is how awful it's been the last many years. Sounds like they're using the data to degrade the entertainment experience, don't ya think?

Perhaps. I've heard it on this forum that Disney is happy if the average guest gets in 8ish attractions a day. (Don't quote me on the number, but I think that's what someone said.) I'm sure they have internal algorithms that factor in all the ways they can achieve maximum profit while maintaining the minimum necessary guest satisfaction to keep attendance high. They're a business, and they clearly have no problem with lack of demand. I have no doubt that they use the data to their advantage, and that advantage is not always in the best interests of the guest or customer satisfaction.

That said, I only go to Disney once every few years, and honestly, most of the doom and gloom on the forum is lost on me. I don't think the experience sucks. I've never encountered crowds so bad they deterred me from visiting. I still consider it worth the money, especially comparing with our other vacation types. I read threads like this because I'm interested in the history and operations and other people's perspectives. And, of course, to learn strategies that can make my next trip more enjoyable.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Meh. If that were really the case and if the use of tracking people movement was meant to improve the experience, the experience wouldn't suck so much. I mean, they've been doing this for how many years now, and they STILL haven't done anything to truly improve people movement in the parks in any meaningful way. Have you felt any improvements? If not, collecting data on us for improvements ain't working. It's really just tracking whether we're spending more time in shops, restaurants, etc. Frankly, they could care less about making improvements. I mean, how much has the collection of data improved your experience? All we ever hear about now on these forums is how awful it's been the last many years. Sounds like they're using the data to degrade the entertainment experience, don't ya think?
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The improvement is not to you but to Disney to avoid having to invest in additional capacity. They use the data to push you to the edge of miserable, not make you as happy as possible.

Last time I used a Dumbo FP, the queue was empty. I obtained it about 5 minutes before using it.

Would it be good for WDW if their new $300 million dollar attraction doesn't generate 1 hour standby waits? If FoP and Rise only had 15 minute waits mid-day (pre-pandemic), that would have been a disaster.

When it comes to WDW, we love to hate to love attraction lines.

I don't think WDW adds inventory to every attraction at a fixed rate all day, but they have the ability to add inventory if they wish to draw people to a underutilized part of the park.

Picture the 8am opening of AK. If there was no FP, where would the bulk of the masses go? Either first ride in the front of the park, or the most popular ride in the park. they wouldn't automatically spread out evenly across all the attractions.

I promise, I have been taking advantage of this unevenness for many decades.

Take a ride like It's a Small World. It is big with the toddlers. What hours do toddlers tour MK? What hours was IaSw busiest before IaSw had FP? Every day it was jam packed10am-7pm, but empty after 8pm. Or at least relatively slow.

The initial distribution of FP also helps WDW even crowd distribution.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Yes, Walt Disney World should have lower waits across the board because that would means the parks have adequate capacity.

Adding FastPasses throughout the day is a lie that Disney has tried in the past that doesn't really work. It only makes sense when there is very low demand but then people are annoyed because they realize the FastPass they received was not really a perk.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

All very fair points. The only way a FP system for the "Haves" would be a effective is if the FP is so frickin' expensive that 99% of folks can't afford it, or refuse to pay for it. If it's somewhat affordable, like $20/day for each ticket, now everyone can afford it and wants it to skip the line. The more people who buy it, the more other people will be forced to buy it because they don't want to wait in a standby in that turns out to be 5 hrs long because 90% of people are by-passing the standby line.

You have to look at these types of things with "what's the extreme scenario" because if it can break, it will. If 90% of people are paying the extra amount to "skip the line", "skipping the line" becomes the actual line, and basically ends up in a $20 per ticket price increase. You basically have to make FP tickets double or triple the entry price to weed out us regular folks who'd rather pay a little extra to "skip the line". But then again, by making the price so expensive only the mega rich can afford it, the financially elite get yet another advantage regular folks don't. Not cool for WDW to pick their winners even more like that.

I agree. Time moves on, and technology changes everyday things, but that doesn't mean that every change is a good one. Look at Twitter and Facebook. When they first started I refused to join and when harassed by friends for not getting with the times, I explained it would be the downfall of humanity. No one needs to know everyone else's thoughts every second of the day, and most things that are in people's heads that normally aren't said... shouldn't be said, tweeted, or posted to Facebook. I didn't realize how right I was back then. I could care less if your status is "in line at the Gap buying a pair of jeans", or what Kim Kardashian's thoughts are about current events. In fact, I adamantly DON'T want to know these things. Both people who post their every thought or their make-believe lives, and those who read other people's every thought would be much better off without it. Recent times have proven this true, and it's only going to get worse.

That said , just because FP+ and using mobile phones to reserve "cheat-the-line" tickets is possible, it doesn't make it an improvement.

This is basically the system Universal has adopted, except Express Pass covers most of the rides (instead of 3).the price point they arrived at was about $90 and/or an included perk at their onsite hotels. (their 3 original hotels, the newer ones don't come with EP perk.)

[Like WDW, hotel prices vary. On 1/26/21 Royal Pacific = $314/night. Nearby Fairfield (exceptionally low due to pandemic) = $77. Residence Inn/Sheraton approx. $100/night. With 4 people per room, Express Pass runs as low as $33 per person per day. 314-77 = 237, 237 /4 = 59 plus tax = $66.37/2 = $33.18, because 1 night at Royal Pacific = 2 days of Express Pass. 2 nights = 3 days, so Express Pass runs about $39 per day per person if 4 people per room.]

Disney World already offered a way to pay for extra FastPasses. Before the Pandemic, it cost $50 per person, per day for 3 extra Fastpasses. It was offered to Club Level hotel guests, so it was on top of the cost of staying Club Level. Oh, and you could only book the extra FP 1 per hour, so it amounted to committing to 6+hours of park time every day. BUT, their was no FP tier limits, and first choice of times if booked 70-90 days from arrival. In translation, you could get FP for both Pandora rides, back to back at whatever time you wanted them.

If you were willing to pay.

So WDW isn't (or wasn't) above the idea of paid Fast pass. It just wasn't well known.

 

[HouCuseChickie]

While I have no stats or data on Disney's profitability with any of this, as a guest, I really liked the paper legacy FP system. We went to WDW quite a bit between 1985 and 1998, before taking a 12.5 year Disney break. If there's one thing I remember from those early trips was lines...really long lines. It was an entirely different world when we returned in 2010 and had FPs. I didn't love the change to FP+, but I still preferred it over how things were when I was a kid. I know people have also been saying for years that it's just a matter of time before Disney starts charging for this, like their competitors. I can't see the parks operating without some form of FPs once crowds can get back to normal, but I also can see Disney starting to charge for it. The reality is that many guests fail to travel research and would just wait in long lines, assuming they had to pay more for FPs. I have been shocked over the last 10+ years hearing how many people I know went and didn't know they were entitled to FPs with their tickets. So, I'm sure Disney will see the $$$s at some point down the road and turn it into a paid add on of some sort.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Yes, Walt Disney World should have lower waits across the board because that would means the parks have adequate capacity.

Adding FastPasses throughout the day is a lie that Disney has tried in the past that doesn't really work. It only makes sense when there is very low demand but then people are annoyed because they realize the FastPass they received was not really a perk.

A good chunk of what I was saying was not that WDW necessarily wants lower waits. FP helps WDW to control wait times. When FP+ is used to even out crowds, that helps everyone.

Before FP, many guests went straight to the first ride in the park. In Epcot, that was Spaceship Earth. So from 9am - 11am, SE had long lines. Later in the day, it dropped off.

With paper FP, the bulk of people went straight to the biggest/newest ride in each park. In HS, for a long time, that was Toy Story Mania. So it partly helped disperse people, but not as well as FP+ does. (Most people didn't ride TSM at park opening, they just got a FP for it.

When SE became a FP+ attraction, wait times became more evenly distributed throughout the day than they had ever been before, at least in my experience.

I was floored for see a wait for SE at 5pm. I started going to Epcot in the 1980's. In all those years, I never saw a 5pm line at SE until SE was added to FP+.
FP+ helps WDW more evenly distribute crowds, and that helps everyone, at least to some degree.

(Oooh - I just reached 1,000 messages! crazy!)

 

[Goofyernmost]

All very fair points. The only way a FP system for the "Haves" would be a effective is if the FP is so frickin' expensive that 99% of folks can't afford it, or refuse to pay for it. If it's somewhat affordable, like $20/day for each ticket, now everyone can afford it and wants it to skip the line. The more people who buy it, the more other people will be forced to buy it because they don't want to wait in a standby in that turns out to be 5 hrs long because 90% of people are by-passing the standby line.

You have to look at these types of things with "what's the extreme scenario" because if it can break, it will. If 90% of people are paying the extra amount to "skip the line", "skipping the line" becomes the actual line, and basically ends up in a $20 per ticket price increase. You basically have to make FP tickets double or triple the entry price to weed out us regular folks who'd rather pay a little extra to "skip the line". But then again, by making the price so expensive only the mega rich can afford it, the financially elite get yet another advantage regular folks don't. Not cool for WDW to pick their winners even more like that.

That is absolutely correct and that would accomplish the same thing wouldn't it. I don't want it that way, but if everyone had a FP it is exactly the same as the regular one line approach but Disney makes more money. I think if they do charge enough for it it will be more workable. The ideal thing is to just lose FP altogether. But, like everyone is saying... they aren't likely to do it unless they think there is something to be gained by it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

A good chunk of what I was saying was not that WDW necessarily wants lower waits. FP helps WDW to control wait times. When FP+ is used to even out crowds, that helps everyone.

Before FP, many guests went straight to the first ride in the park. In Epcot, that was Spaceship Earth. So from 9am - 11am, SE had long lines. Later in the day, it dropped off.

With paper FP, the bulk of people went straight to the biggest/newest ride in each park. In HS, for a long time, that was Toy Story Mania. So it partly helped disperse people, but not as well as FP+ does. (Most people didn't ride TSM at park opening, they just got a FP for it.

When SE became a FP+ attraction, wait times became more evenly distributed throughout the day than they had ever been before, at least in my experience.

I was floored for see a wait for SE at 5pm. I started going to Epcot in the 1980's. In all those years, I never saw a 5pm line at SE until SE was added to FP+.
FP+ helps WDW more evenly distribute crowds, and that helps everyone, at least to some degree.

(Oooh - I just reached 1,000 messages! crazy!)

FastPass+ causes crowds because it lets people occupy multiple spaces and once and for Disney to throttle capacity. Disney wants crowding and the intentionally create it and part of accepting it is “skipping” some lines with FastPass+. The only true way to actually deal with crowding is to have adequate capacity which the parks do not have.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Yes, it is also true WDW wants crowds in some places, but that is only part of the total picture.

I don't really think FP= anyone being in two places at once. I know it was sold that way, but I don't find it an accurate way to think about FP. I'm certain for myself, I've never actually spent more time shopping just because I got a FP.

Also, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, lines are the average of FP and standby. If everyone rode the same 6 attractions, and everyone did 3 FP and 3 standby, they'd pretty much all come out the same. For every minute a FP saves, it equally adds a minute to the standby wait. In principal, they cancel each other out.

Though...as I said earlier, in practice, when everyone only got 3 FP, a significant number of people left about an hour after their 3 FP were done for the day. It wasn't that people weren't still using up their FP, it was that once people could no longer get more, they saw long lines and left in droves, but they didn't pay attention to just how much the crowd was thinning. They were only focused on not having any more FP.

In any event, you too have been a forum member for a long time, and I respect your opinions. I don't think I'm posting any big revelations. When FP+ was new...there were many threads on the topic, though some of the threads got a bit heated. I could see why anyone might have stayed away.

It has been interesting to see how FP+ has evolved, and parkgoers have adapted. Or at least it was interesting. We'll see. I think it will return. Like much of WDW, if you understand the system, it is possible to develop a beneficial strategy, and that's part of the appeal.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Meh. If that were really the case and if the use of tracking people movement was meant to improve the experience, the experience wouldn't suck so much. I mean, they've been doing this for how many years now, and they STILL haven't done anything to truly improve people movement in the parks in any meaningful way. Have you felt any improvements? If not, collecting data on us for improvements ain't working. It's really just tracking whether we're spending more time in shops, restaurants, etc. Frankly, they could care less about making improvements. I mean, how much has the collection of data improved your experience? All we ever hear about now on these forums is how awful it's been the last many years. Sounds like they're using the data to degrade the entertainment experience, don't ya think?
View attachment 525890

I think, part of the explanation is that WDW has simultaneously improved park-goers distribution AND simultaneously increased total attendance. That's why it isn't necessarily better. The FP+ system also rewards people who are willing to use their smartphones in the parks a fair amount. If you set your 3 FP and don't do anything else, FP+ really sucks.

The WDW bus transportation system surely improved thanks to technology. Individual experience maybe hasn't improved, but the total number of people WDW moves around every day- or did- was very impressive!

For a very interesting educational experience spend an hour on the Contemporary balcony watching buses and monorails coming and going from MK (4th floor, near the Bay Lake Tower walkway but the corner of CR that faces MK and has seats), especially if you can do it during MK rush hour. It is something to ponder the sheer volume of people WDW moves around every day.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I think, part of the explanation is that WDW has simultaneously improved park-goers distribution AND simultaneously increased total attendance. That's why it isn't necessarily better. The FP+ system also rewards people who are willing to use their smartphones in the parks a fair amount. If you set your 3 FP and don't do anything else, FP+ really sucks.

The WDW bus transportation system surely improved thanks to technology. Individual experience maybe hasn't improved, but the total number of people WDW moves around every day- or did- was very impressive!

For a very interesting educational experience spend an hour on the Contemporary balcony watching buses and monorails coming and going from MK (4th floor, near the Bay Lake Tower walkway but the corner of CR that faces MK and has seats), especially if you can do it during MK rush hour. It is something to ponder the sheer volume of people WDW moves around every day.

No question that transportation has vastly improved due to technology. I find it fascinating at the least, and basically a miracle with the volumes of people they move around.

That said, FP+ sucks the big one. Aside from all that has been mentioned thusfar in this thread, it requires so much research and planning that it's like writing a dissertation in advance of your "vacation". Who wants to do that much planning, scheduling, heck... even just thinking for a vacation 60 days out. In order to "enjoy yourself" on your WDW vacation, you have to do waaaaaay too much work long before. Bring back paper FP, or just same day and in property FP+. Your phone has to be linked to their network, or your GPS needs to be in a park in order to book a FP. Stop the insane homework assignments trying to pick rides for certain days months in advance.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Conceptually, FP isn't a terrible idea. Practically, for me at least, I love and hate it equally. A few trips every year I plan - months in advance. However, many of my other trips are confirmed anywhere from a week to a few weeks out. In those cases, good luck getting the premium rides and the time windows you want - without incessantly hitting refresh on your smartphone - every day, up until and including the time you are actually in the park.

 

[MurphyJoe]

Here is my question which is better for a ride like Rise Of The Resistance, Fastpass or the current reservation system in place now? I have not been on this ride yet so I can’t say

Disney should've offered a RotR FP+ boarding group for their hotel guests only with how much Disney is charging per night. Everyone else can try day of like they're currently doing.

 

[CAV]

The problem with charging to skip the line is that it turns into a class war. Here's the 1st class line for the "Haves", and over there is the Steerage line for the "Have Nots". I'm a guy who grew up in a blue-collar family, but have been fortunate in my career. I'll always be a blue-collar guy at heart. 100% standby lines at the parks levels the playing field. Just because some folks get lucky in life or they win the genetics lottery and are born with a silver spoon doesn't give them the right to get to a ride 45 mins after a less fortunate family, but get on the ride 30 minutes before they get to the head of the line. I HATE that entitled attitude. Money makes people suck.

Oh, the humanity! It would be like if they had value resorts and deluxe resorts, or concierge level rooms at some hotels, or counter service versus the California Grill. Or even like if some people can afford to go to WDW and some people can't. Just horribly unfair; almost like life itself.

 

[CAV]

This is most definitely true, but I see this as a large negative. I could be wrong, but I believe WDW makes more money from visiting families, than locals who purchase annual passes, but don't buy souvenirs, purchase meals, or stay on property. So while locals might understand the FP+ system better giving them a distinct advantage, if it makes the experience worse for visiting families who stay on property and eat all/most of their meals on property, and spending most of their vacation dollars on property, then TWDC is losing in the end.

Granted, I've made a ton of assumptions in that short paragraph, but I think my assumptions are reasonable. If that's true, then if visiting families are making return visits and aren't having as good a time, not riding all the rides they wanted to ride, not getting as much bang for their buck than they were 10 or 15 years ago... then some of those families won't return.

When someone says that FP+ could be causing the loss of paying customers, most reasonable people think that's ridiculous, but it could literally be true. While on the other hand getting rid of it, most people aren't going to stop coming to Disney because they don't have FP+. If you're going to WDW, it's for the entertainment and rides, not specifically because of the FP+ system. So if they scrap it, it could only result in more revenue from people who felt they weren't as entertained as they were pre-FP+. With it, there's a good chance that visiting families won't get to ride the most popular rides due to ridiculous wait times.

This, I dont get. My wife and I (AP holders) go 10-12 times a year. Sometimes overnight, sometimes a weekend stay, sometimes for several day. We stay at deluxe hotels. We have sit down meals. We enjoy way overpriced alcoholic beverages. We spend thousands of dollars. If we didn't have APs, we probably would go ever couple of years.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

This, I dont get. My wife and I (AP holders) go 10-12 times a year. Sometimes overnight, sometimes a weekend stay, sometimes for several day. We stay at deluxe hotels. We have sit down meals. We enjoy way overpriced alcoholic beverages. We spend thousands of dollars. If we didn't have APs, we probably would go ever couple of years.

Congrats on your magnificent success! The upper 1% don't fill Disney pockets anywhere close to as much as the remaining 99%.

 

[Chi84]

Congrats on your magnificent success! The upper 1% don't fill Disney pockets anywhere close to as much as the remaining 99%.

I'm pretty sure what the poster described doesn't necessarily put him or her in the upper 1%. In any event, I didn't get the feeling the poster was bragging about success, just explaining that some AP holders do in fact spend a lot of their entertainment dollars at WDW.

 

[Buck Wheelie]

I would rather see FP return to the way it was where you get the FP at the ride or attraction. I don't like all the online planning months ahead of time. Schedules change due to dinner reservations, weather, etc and once you are locked in to your fast pass it hard to change to something else since they are all taken months out. I wonder how many reserved FP go unused?

None of this will probably matter anyway because I'm betting Disney will come back with a new FP that visitors can pay extra for since other places do that. After all that was their reasoning for a parking fee. Since other resorts/hotels were doing they said they should charge for it too.