"The FastPass Question"

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
In and of itself, a virtual queue or reservation system is not inherently a negative. What makes it truly work for guests is ultimately the capacity of the parks. The parks of Walt Disney World are all woefully under capacity.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Also, I don't see them getting rid of it because they have Disney Genie on the way. It is a brand new app that they are throwing money at. Personally, I see them trying to enhance the experience through Disney Genie for the average guest so it is easier for them to understand. I don't think we should talk about if fastpass is goung away because I don't think it will. Instead, we should speculate how it will be enhanced in the future.
I'm sure it won't go away, but it should. For those of you that were not there during the pre FP days I can assure you it was a lot of lines, but it was fast moving and fun. Now not having a FP is just frustration and anger inducing.

As bad as it seemed to be at Disney, early days of Universal were by far more frustrating. Lines were not only excruciatingly long but they were hidden and deceptive. I remember the Kong ride you would stand in a very long line for a long time, moving slowly because the inner queue was ginormous and just about the time you looked like you were going to finally get into that inner line, the queue would take a sharp left and you found yourself in a huge tent that was twice the size of one you had already been in. And Back to the Future was crazy. The queue went off in many different directions around the outside of the building and again just when you thought you were about to get into the building itself, they would direct you off in a different direction as big or bigger then the one you just emerged from. The land of a thousand different queues. Disney, at least, was never like that. Long lines, yes, but it was visible and no big surprises. I had young kids 6 and 8 years old and because the lines kept moving they had no problem in the days before iPads. It was terrible for them though, they had to learn how to communicate by speaking instead of using their thumbs.
 

NelleBelle

Well-Known Member
We despise FP+ at WDW. It's bad enough that prior to covid you had to make dining reservations 180 days if you wanted a certain restaurant. I used to like all the crazy planning when my kids were little--they were easy babies/toddlers and were perfectly happy to take their naps wherever, go wherever, and do whatever. But now that we're older, we like the spontaneity of riding what we want, when we want, and dining where/when we want. That's one of the many reasons we started going to DLR. If you want to do FP, you do it that day when you get into the park via your phone. Or if you want to hold more than one, you pay for MaxPass (which we love). Even without FP, we find the lines so much tolerable. We went on New Years Day when touring plans had it listed a 9/10 for crowd level--it felt like a regular day at WDW during the summer. I'd much rather FP be done completely away with.
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
The most important thing to Disney is the data. And now that I think we'll start seeing a gradual shift from bands to devices, I don't think Disney is going to miss the opportunity to track us everywhere. So I don't think FP will ever be "axed". They may start charging for it though.

Charging for it might cut down the frustration. Uni charges for it and you can pay it or decide not to, but then it is your choice. If money was more important then time you didn't, if you where willing to pay, you did and those of us that didn't could at least say... Oh, well, they paid extra and I didn't.
The problem with charging to skip the line is that it turns into a class war. Here's the 1st class line for the "Haves", and over there is the Steerage line for the "Have Nots". I'm a guy who grew up in a blue-collar family, but have been fortunate in my career. I'll always be a blue-collar guy at heart. 100% standby lines at the parks levels the playing field. Just because some folks get lucky in life or they win the genetics lottery and are born with a silver spoon doesn't give them the right to get to a ride 45 mins after a less fortunate family, but get on the ride 30 minutes before they get to the head of the line. I HATE that entitled attitude. Money makes people suck.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
The problem with charging to skip the line is that it turns into a class war. Here's the 1st class line for the "Haves", and over there is the Steerage line for the "Have Nots". I'm a guy who grew up in a blue-collar family, but have been fortunate in my career. I'll always be a blue-collar guy at heart. 100% standby lines at the parks levels the playing field. Just because some folks get lucky in life or they win the genetics lottery and are born with a silver spoon doesn't give them the right to get to a ride 45 mins after a less fortunate family, but get on the ride 30 minutes before they get to the head of the line. I HATE that entitled attitude. Money makes people suck.
Believe me, I am all in favor of the one line system, but since they have to insist that they have a segregated, in a sense, line then I'd rather it be the haves, because there are way, way fewer of those and the FP line will be a lot less crowded. The standby line will essentially move much faster. It is more of a compromise then a desire.

Right now they discriminate against the have nots already. The have nots cannot afford the onsite, hundreds per night, accommodations. so they are immediately given the handicap of the 30 day head start for onsite guests, people with families that might be able to pick up one or two for a specific time, will be limited in the availability of FP's at a later date. Even the paper ones required early arrival at the parks, followed by a lot of wasted time running for a kiosk or three for their initial FP's. People with larger families needed more time to get to the parks early enough to be able to get the amount they needed for the attractions they wanted.
 

Rosanne

Active Member
IMO, you maybe left a few important points off your list.
1. FP+ allows WDW to redistribute guests within the park. Without FP, many guests start their day at the first ride they encounter, late at night they head towards the front of the park. Spaceship Earth and it's Tough to Be a Bug both suffered from this problem. Early in the day, both used to have long lines, but later in the day ITtBaB was empty. After the fireworks ended, a huge throng of people headed to Buzz. Granted, I've always assumed that is a big reason why the parks have late night fireworks/parades is to get everyone near the front of the park/signal the end of the day.

P. T. Barnum supposedly came up with the concept. To get people to leave, he put up a sign that said this way to the "Egress." It looked just like every other sign that connected rooms, like "This way to the Clown Show," with a pointing finger. People who didn't know Egress = Exit and/or couldn't/didn't read/weren't paying attention exited faster. It worked!

2. There's an addictive aspect to FP. Getting a great FP is a bit like winning the lottery. Getting to use a FP is also a thrill.

3. People don't like change. I daresay, WDW fans especially don't like change.
# 3. Change. If this were the case, they would never have changed from E Tickets to one gate fee. As the world progresses, especially now with hi tech and a bigger population, change is necessary. The problem is tho, the seniors have a hard time keeping up. And I repeat - there should be a way that once someone sets a Fast Pass, it expires after a certain, allowing others to use it.
 

Rosanne

Active Member
IMO, you maybe left a few important points off your list.
1. FP+ allows WDW to redistribute guests within the park. Without FP, many guests start their day at the first ride they encounter, late at night they head towards the front of the park. Spaceship Earth and it's Tough to Be a Bug both suffered from this problem. Early in the day, both used to have long lines, but later in the day ITtBaB was empty. After the fireworks ended, a huge throng of people headed to Buzz. Granted, I've always assumed that is a big reason why the parks have late night fireworks/parades is to get everyone near the front of the park/signal the end of the day.

P. T. Barnum supposedly came up with the concept. To get people to leave, he put up a sign that said this way to the "Egress." It looked just like every other sign that connected rooms, like "This way to the Clown Show," with a pointing finger. People who didn't know Egress = Exit and/or couldn't/didn't read/weren't paying attention exited faster. It worked!

2. There's an addictive aspect to FP. Getting a great FP is a bit like winning the lottery. Getting to use a FP is also a thrill.

3. People don't like change. I daresay, WDW fans especially don't like change.
If that was the case Disney would never have moved on from E Ticket booklets to one gate fee. Time moves on. There is a much bigger population and a need for some kind of structure to allow everyone to enjoy the rides. That goes for toddlers to seniors. They have to figure out a tech friendly friendly way to lessen the rides & move people along. And I repeat - some way to have the Fast Pass expire after a certain time to allow other people to use it.
 

Rosanne

Active Member
Also, I don't see them getting rid of it because they have Disney Genie on the way. It is a brand new app that they are throwing money at. Personally, I see them trying to enhance the experience through Disney Genie for the average guest so it is easier for them to understand. I don't think we should talk about if fastpass is goung away because I don't think it will. Instead, we should speculate how it will be enhanced in the future.
They need some kind of way to control the crowds and the lines. Hopefully the fast pass will be enhanced and user friendly. I do object to "Magic Hours" as they are not so magic to pay even more $$$$ just to get on a ride you already paid for at the gate. Here's a thought. How about not allowing as many people in the park to begin with. Oh, right - they arent going to turn away more money.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
# 3. Change. If this were the case, they would never have changed from E Tickets to one gate fee. As the world progresses, especially now with hi tech and a bigger population, change is necessary. The problem is tho, the seniors have a hard time keeping up. And I repeat - there should be a way that once someone sets a Fast Pass, it expires after a certain, allowing others to use it.
FastPasses do expire but they cannot be allocated to someone else as a FastPass because that space has already passed and been given away to someone in the stand-by queue. You'd be adding in a future rider, changing the ratio of FastPass to Stand-By.
 

JustAFan

Well-Known Member
They need some kind of way to control the crowds and the lines. Hopefully the fast pass will be enhanced and user friendly. I do object to "Magic Hours" as they are not so magic to pay even more $$$$ just to get on a ride you already paid for at the gate. Here's a thought. How about not allowing as many people in the park to begin with. Oh, right - they arent going to turn away more money.
Well, it's generally not good business to turn away a paying customer. But the other side of that is if you (or I) arrive after they hit their limit, do you want to be turned away? Obviously there are other concerns, but for the sake of this argument, I imagine it would take a lot for Disney to turn people away (Covid, capacity - whatever that actually is?)

I like FastPass. Sure, there is room for improvement, but I think overall it's a good program. It's good for crowd control. It's nice to know you'll be able to get on your favorite ride.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
People who don't own smartphones are definitely disadvantaged at WDW under FP+.

WDW touring is like a giant puzzle. It has always been a giant puzzle. Even before FP-, having an effective strategy was part of the puzzle.

And effective touring involves a number of tradeoffs. It always has, and always will. It always pays to make some effort to zig whenever the crowd zags, but that takes thought and effort.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
# 3. Change. If this were the case, they would never have changed from E Tickets to one gate fee. As the world progresses, especially now with hi tech and a bigger population, change is necessary. The problem is tho, the seniors have a hard time keeping up. And I repeat - there should be a way that once someone sets a Fast Pass, it expires after a certain, allowing others to use it.
Ah, I've been a forum member since 2004. I still recall the giant uproar when the lobby of the Land was remodeled.

The forums didn't exist in the 1970's, but as long as I have been a forum member, almost 17 years now, most change = an uproar on the forums.

I've long appreciated the lyrics of Rush's Tom Sawyer:
Always hopeful, yet discontent
He knows no change is permanent,
But change is."



I also like Bowie's Changes:
Time may change me,
But I can't trace time...
I watch the ripples change their size,
But never leave the stream
Of warm impermanence
And so the days float through my eyes
But still the days seem the same.

Sigh. RIP David Bowie and Neil Peart.

I think WDW did actually replace unused FP. Well maybe not FoP, they just pull someone from standby to fill any empty seats. Most other rides, WDW constantly modified FP inventory. If not enough people were on Dumbo, manipulating people that direction was as easy as giving out a few FP. Perhaps you personally didn't look for FP mid-day, but others did. FP inventory changed moment to moment all day.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
FastPasses do expire but they cannot be allocated to someone else
Why not?
as a FastPass because that space has already passed and been given away to someone in the stand-by queue. You'd be adding in a future rider, changing the ratio of FastPass to Stand-By.
Yes, FP allows CM's to draw people from two lines, so yes, they do fill in extra space as you say.

But why assume FP was a fixed inventory that can't be changed?

Any time WDW wants me to stay in the park a little longer, all they have to do is offer me a good FP! As soon as the 7DMT queue isn't hitting expected targets, All WDW has to do is offer a few extra FP, park goes will snap them up and be there in a jiffy.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Why not?

Yes, FP allows CM's to draw people from two lines, so yes, they do fill in extra space as you say.

But why assume FP was a fixed inventory that can't be changed?

Any time WDW wants me to stay in the park a little longer, all they have to do is offer me a good FP! As soon as the 7DMT queue isn't hitting expected targets, All WDW has to do is offer a few extra FP, park goes will snap them up and be there in a jiffy.
It is a zero sum game. Adding FastPass inventory means taking away Stand-By inventory. Your scenario of enticing people means pushing others away as wait times increase. There was a time when Disney did do surprise FastPasses and they were a good bit of a joke because they only really work on things for which a FastPass is not actually needed.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
If that was the case Disney would never have moved on from E Ticket booklets to one gate fee. Time moves on. There is a much bigger population and a need for some kind of structure to allow everyone to enjoy the rides. That goes for toddlers to seniors. They have to figure out a tech friendly friendly way to lessen the rides & move people along. And I repeat - some way to have the Fast Pass expire after a certain time to allow other people to use it.
Incidentally, I appreciate your perspective in this thread. If any of my posts have come off otherwise, I apologize.

I absolutely agree with most of this post. WDW always has the challenge of trying to balance the needs/desires/interests of all their customers while still remaining profitable/viable, and that isn't easy or simple in 2021.
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
Believe me, I am all in favor of the one line system, but since they have to insist that they have a segregated, in a sense, line then I'd rather it be the haves, because there are way, way fewer of those and the FP line will be a lot less crowded. The standby line will essentially move much faster. It is more of a compromise then a desire.

Right now they discriminate against the have nots already. The have nots cannot afford the onsite, hundreds per night, accommodations. so they are immediately given the handicap of the 30 day head start for onsite guests, people with families that might be able to pick up one or two for a specific time, will be limited in the availability of FP's at a later date. Even the paper ones required early arrival at the parks, followed by a lot of wasted time running for a kiosk or three for their initial FP's. People with larger families needed more time to get to the parks early enough to be able to get the amount they needed for the attractions they wanted.
All very fair points. The only way a FP system for the "Haves" would be a effective is if the FP is so frickin' expensive that 99% of folks can't afford it, or refuse to pay for it. If it's somewhat affordable, like $20/day for each ticket, now everyone can afford it and wants it to skip the line. The more people who buy it, the more other people will be forced to buy it because they don't want to wait in a standby in that turns out to be 5 hrs long because 90% of people are by-passing the standby line.

You have to look at these types of things with "what's the extreme scenario" because if it can break, it will. If 90% of people are paying the extra amount to "skip the line", "skipping the line" becomes the actual line, and basically ends up in a $20 per ticket price increase. You basically have to make FP tickets double or triple the entry price to weed out us regular folks who'd rather pay a little extra to "skip the line". But then again, by making the price so expensive only the mega rich can afford it, the financially elite get yet another advantage regular folks don't. Not cool for WDW to pick their winners even more like that.
If that was the case Disney would never have moved on from E Ticket booklets to one gate fee. Time moves on. There is a much bigger population and a need for some kind of structure to allow everyone to enjoy the rides. That goes for toddlers to seniors. They have to figure out a tech friendly friendly way to lessen the rides & move people along. And I repeat - some way to have the Fast Pass expire after a certain time to allow other people to use it.
I agree. Time moves on, and technology changes everyday things, but that doesn't mean that every change is a good one. Look at Twitter and Facebook. When they first started I refused to join and when harassed by friends for not getting with the times, I explained it would be the downfall of humanity. No one needs to know everyone else's thoughts every second of the day, and most things that are in people's heads that normally aren't said... shouldn't be said, tweeted, or posted to Facebook. I didn't realize how right I was back then. I could care less if your status is "in line at the Gap buying a pair of jeans", or what Kim Kardashian's thoughts are about current events. In fact, I adamantly DON'T want to know these things. Both people who post their every thought or their make-believe lives, and those who read other people's every thought would be much better off without it. Recent times have proven this true, and it's only going to get worse.

That said 😁, just because FP+ and using mobile phones to reserve "cheat-the-line" tickets is possible, it doesn't make it an improvement.
 

Rosanne

Active Member
All very fair points. The only way a FP system for the "Haves" would be a effective is if the FP is so frickin' expensive that 99% of folks can't afford it, or refuse to pay for it. If it's somewhat affordable, like $20/day for each ticket, now everyone can afford it and wants it to skip the line. The more people who buy it, the more other people will be forced to buy it because they don't want to wait in a standby in that turns out to be 5 hrs long because 90% of people are by-passing the standby line.

You have to look at these types of things with "what's the extreme scenario" because if it can break, it will. If 90% of people are paying the extra amount to "skip the line", "skipping the line" becomes the actual line, and basically ends up in a $20 per ticket price increase. You basically have to make FP tickets double or triple the entry price to weed out us regular folks who'd rather pay a little extra to "skip the line". But then again, by making the price so expensive only the mega rich can afford it, the financially elite get yet another advantage regular folks don't. Not cool for WDW to pick their winners even more like that.

I agree. Time moves on, and technology changes everyday things, but that doesn't mean that every change is a good one. Look at Twitter and Facebook. When they first started I refused to join and when harassed by friends for not getting with the times, I explained it would be the downfall of humanity. No one needs to know everyone else's thoughts every second of the day, and most things that are in people's heads that normally aren't said... shouldn't be said, tweeted, or posted to Facebook. I didn't realize how right I was back then. I could care less if your status is "in line at the Gap buying a pair of jeans", or what Kim Kardashian's thoughts are about current events. In fact, I adamantly DON'T want to know these things. Both people who post their every thought or their make-believe lives, and those who read other people's every thought would be much better off without it. Recent times have proven this true, and it's only going to get worse.

That said 😁, just because FP+ and using mobile phones to reserve "cheat-the-line" tickets is possible, it doesn't make it an improvement.
I AGREE with everything you have said about lines, fast passes and especially Facebook. When one of my friends posted she had just bought 4 new tires at BJ's. I decided that was it for me. I have been going to Disneyland & World for over 40 yrs. In the old days (I know you techies will yawn) people walked around with their eyes appreciating all of the beautiful sights Disney offered. Now everyone has their noses in their cell phones texting or looking for the next FP. Boring. May as well stay home.
 

aliceismad

Well-Known Member
I think people underestimate the value the FP system has (or could have) to Disney for crowd dispersal and tracking guests. Any replacement that they introduce is going to be designed in part so that guests perceive it as being a benefit for them and in part because it can be used by Disney to manipulate guest behavior and/or collect data to be analyzed. And that's not necessarily meant in a bad way. If they can release FPs or put in other measures to do a better job at making some people go east when they would normally all go west, that's a good thing.
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
I AGREE with everything you have said about lines, fast passes and especially Facebook. When one of my friends posted she had just bought 4 new tires at BJ's. I decided that was it for me. I have been going to Disneyland & World for over 40 yrs. In the old days (I know you techies will yawn) people walked around with their eyes appreciating all of the beautiful sights Disney offered. Now everyone has their noses in their cell phones texting or looking for the next FP. Boring. May as well stay home.
You know, I'm a middle-aged guy with all the tech at my fingertips and the knowledge to use them, but I use them sparingly. I enjoy a meal or drink with the person I'm with rather than looking at my phone... almost ever. It's in my pocket, not on the table. I share a moment with the person I'm with, and if the person I'm with constantly checks their phone, see ya. 😁 Check your phone for a second, sure. No prob. Have a text conversation or Facebook conversation with someone while you're hanging out with me, then don't be with me. I'm perfectly fine not wasting my time with someone like that. It happens occasionally for some reasons and it's important, but if that's the case, let me know and make it as quick as possible, or better yet, excuse yourself and make a frickin' phone call. 🤪 Remember those days? Actually speaking with people?
 

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