Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
See above. No we don't have the same exact concerns, but it isn't just universally a problem with every situation that can be listed.
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"The FastPass Question"
- Thread starter Marc Davis Fan
- Start date
Shouldigo12
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did this whole conversation not start because you said planning wasn't a necessity and Jak pointed out that for women it very much is? No, women aren't more at risk for every single situation in life, but when it comes travel most things are more dangerous.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Travel is not what we were talking about, we were talking about FP and the like in the parks. Of course you have to plan travel, everyone unless they have their own jet has to plan somewhat in every travel situation. However, that isn't what we were talking about. We were talking about what happens and the risks involved once one passes inside gates to the park.
NelleBelle
Well-Known Member
And you quoted me about planning saying, “Simple answer... Because many first time people are completely unaware that any planning would be necessary other then sleeping accommodations to go to a damn Theme Park. They don't know things like this board exist and even if they did they wouldn't really know what they would need to "prepare" for until they actually get to the park. Does anyone plan and re-plan for a trip to 6 flags? Or any other park that they might have easy access too? No, just reserve a place to sleep and just wing the rest of it...
I went to Europe about 5 years ago. That required some planning because we were going to a number of different cities and ending up on a trans-Atlantic Cruise to come back home. One day during that month long venture we went to Disneyland Paris. Nothing else was required other than tickets which we bought when we got there. We really shouldn't assume that just because we have all had experiences at WDW (mostly) that others know anymore about it other then Walt Disney had something to do with it. That blessing of size has turned into a nightmare of size for the casual tourist.”
I was talking about FP+ and how people who don’t do a little bit of looking into where they are going and miss out on things like FP, especially if they book a WDW hotel and don’t know about FP, then that’s on them. As above, you went into how back in the day you need not plan anything. Well, unfortunately I this day and age, even going on a solo trip to WDW as a woman is NOT the same thing for a man. I won’t go into the specifics of why (although maybe it needs to be done reading from some of the tone deaf remarks about how “safe” it is to travel alone to WDW it is). The whole point of why some don’t care for FP is THE PLANNING!!
Trackmaster
Well-Known Member
But the ironic part is that the best way to use FP+ and get the best results is to NOT plan, and to not even start booking your FP+'s until after rope drop that day. People won't start discarding their FP+'s until after the park opens generally. Disney throws some extra ones in throughout the day too.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't need to be explained. I am not 8 years old. I have two middle aged daughters and two grand daughters. So stop the condescending crap. I am aware of the dangers for everyone in the world today. Sleeping in your own house can get you shot. So why are you so freaking concerned about WDW? Do you know someone that was violated at WDW? Is there any reason why walking around the parks alone should open up assaults from people that are there side by side with their families along with a gigantic group of people that would be witness to anything that happened? Is standing in a FP queue somehow less dangerous than the standby queue? And what protection does actually having a reserved place in line afford that just getting in line doesn't?
My whole response to this has been because you are somehow linking your safety to having a FP, but you have yet to explain why having a reserved spot at a designated time is safer then not. What does being a woman have to do with anything once you are in a queue line? My whole response is because the argument that you are using just simply does not apply to the topic that we are discussing. We are discussing the merits of continuing FP or not continuing it. It has nothing at all to do with any degree of safety. None!
I have never said that people cannot or should not plan. What I have been saying is that I don't think it SHOULD BE NECESSARY once you are inside a freaking Theme Park. I don't think enjoyment should hinge on what point in time you decide to go there or taking the chance of being to late to the party to get a jump the line free pass. You can research the parks, there are maps and descriptions of attractions completely available that helps anyone negotiate the parks, either before hand or during. None of those things will completely shelter you from harm, but common sense should tell you that when it comes to your personal safety there are not to many places in the world today that are as safe as a Disney Theme park. Perverts hesitate to spend $100.00 a day to enter a park that has camera's every two inches in the hopes of catching someone off guard so they can attack them. It just doesn't work that way.
My discussing what it was like years ago was to simply make a comparison and factually state that it was in existence and it worked that way quite well. I didn't deny that it is different today, my whole discussion is that it doesn't have to be quite so intense. All the dangers of a trip to WDW is the actual physical movement to Disney. Be it planes, cars, buses or trains. Once you get within that sheltered area almost all of the danger has passed and FASTPASS HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH SAFETY. You feel like you need to plan ahead, well all of us have to to some extent. Even getting in my car and driving there requires some planning, but once I get there I want to go to the attractions when I want to go there, not when a FP time is available, I want to eat what I want too, when I want to without having to make that decision 180 days in advance. Fastpass is just a small part of it, but, in my opinion, it is totally unnecessary forced requirement for overall enjoyment. It was great fun before FP started and it would be far less frustrating and time consuming if it weren't there. I have made myself clear on my reasons and will not be replying further to this unrelated attack on my words. Plan or don't plan. What you do is of no concern of mine, but don't use false narratives to justify something that isn't needed.
There are 2 separate core issues with the FP+ system..
The first is the core problem, that can't really be solved VQ/FP system:
Insufficient capacity. The total footprint of Magic Kingdom hasn't really been significantly enlarged in decades. From the limited older stats I found, in 1994... total attendance at all 3 existing parks was 29 million. (had fallen from 33 million in 1990). Even excluding Animal Kingdom.. looking at the 3 parks that existed in 1994, before Covid those 3 parks were up to about 45 million people.
Disney's profit model certainly seeks ever expanding attendance. With growing population, increased international wealth (bringing more international guests to WDW), attendance is bound to grow as long as WDW remains popular.
So all those additional bodies need places to go. Earlier in this thread, I debated whether new attractions cause increases in attendance: Certainly they play a role but mostly in a sense of Disney wants to constantly evolve to constantly stay exciting and fresh, to maintain popularity. When they build new attractions, it's partially just to keep their edge, partially to increase its popularity, but also partially to accommodate the growing attendance.
For Disney's profit statements, they would love to see ever increasing attendance, all while cutting costs.
Things like parades, fireworks, and shows are all critical for handling the attendance: They haven't had the night time parade in years... but that pulls thousands of people out of attraction-lines.
Extended hours: spreading the crowd out over a longer period.
So lines are horrific simply because there are too many people and not enough places to put them. Reductions in hours, shows, etc... it makes this issue worse and worse.
There is no VQ/FP system that would truly "fix" this. At best, you may more efficiently distribute people. But if you're truly beyond capacity, greater efficiency can only do so much..
That said.. FP+ was a horrible solution..
The second core problem with FP+...
I'm reminded by a line from the Incredibles, something like, "if everyone is special, then nobody is"
You can't actually make everyone special. Allowing 1 person to cut a line, by necessity, makes the line longer for someone else.
Back in the days of paper FP, people who took advantage of the FP system would often get 3-4 FPs in a single day to E-ticket and popular attractions. With FP+, Disney tried to replicate that experience.. FOR EVERYONE.. by promising EVERYONE 3 FPs per day..
But here is the thing: There aren't enough E-ticket and high popularity attractions for everyone to get to cut the line 3 times per day. This resulted in attractions that have no need for FP, getting FP added... And resulted in "tiers" being necessary in 3 of the parks.
Back in the old days, not everyone really took advantage of paper FP. Lots of people didn't really bother to understand it. It required a lot of legwork.. running to the FP machine, then having to come back later. Top priority FPs required arrival early in the morning. Even facing a 30 minute line, plenty of guests opted to take the approach of, "may as well wait in the line, instead of walking all the way to the FP machine, (often at the front of a long queue), then have to go kill time for a couple hours, only to have to come back later.
Basically... the only FP system worked great for those that understood it and were willing to put in the work.
So if the goal of FP+ was to give ALL guests the original FP experience, then it failed miserably: There just isn't enough capacity to give every single guest 3 real fastpasses. So you get fastpasses to things that are always walk-on, line shows. You also get more spots being dedicated to FP -- resulting in even longer lines for standby.
If the goal of FP+ was simply to *force* people into less popular attractions -- "guess I'll get a FP for the Muppets since everything else at DHS is unavailable.." -- That really isn't a positive for the guest experience.
If Disney does revise the FP system -- My hope would be to reduce the promise. Change it to something more like the DL Maxpass. Or if you do keep the bones of FP+... reduce the number offered. Maybe 3 for on-site deluxe guests.. 2 for on-site mod/value guests, and off-site guests can only book 1 FP in advance.
Of course, that's not "fair" -- Deluxe guests would see a dramatic improvement in the FP system, while off-site guests may get it slightly worse.
But at least it would let guests have control over their fastpass experience with their wallet... A better experience if they deem it worth paying for. (which they also already do with VIP tours)
The first is the core problem, that can't really be solved VQ/FP system:
Insufficient capacity. The total footprint of Magic Kingdom hasn't really been significantly enlarged in decades. From the limited older stats I found, in 1994... total attendance at all 3 existing parks was 29 million. (had fallen from 33 million in 1990). Even excluding Animal Kingdom.. looking at the 3 parks that existed in 1994, before Covid those 3 parks were up to about 45 million people.
Disney's profit model certainly seeks ever expanding attendance. With growing population, increased international wealth (bringing more international guests to WDW), attendance is bound to grow as long as WDW remains popular.
So all those additional bodies need places to go. Earlier in this thread, I debated whether new attractions cause increases in attendance: Certainly they play a role but mostly in a sense of Disney wants to constantly evolve to constantly stay exciting and fresh, to maintain popularity. When they build new attractions, it's partially just to keep their edge, partially to increase its popularity, but also partially to accommodate the growing attendance.
For Disney's profit statements, they would love to see ever increasing attendance, all while cutting costs.
Things like parades, fireworks, and shows are all critical for handling the attendance: They haven't had the night time parade in years... but that pulls thousands of people out of attraction-lines.
Extended hours: spreading the crowd out over a longer period.
So lines are horrific simply because there are too many people and not enough places to put them. Reductions in hours, shows, etc... it makes this issue worse and worse.
There is no VQ/FP system that would truly "fix" this. At best, you may more efficiently distribute people. But if you're truly beyond capacity, greater efficiency can only do so much..
That said.. FP+ was a horrible solution..
The second core problem with FP+...
I'm reminded by a line from the Incredibles, something like, "if everyone is special, then nobody is"
You can't actually make everyone special. Allowing 1 person to cut a line, by necessity, makes the line longer for someone else.
Back in the days of paper FP, people who took advantage of the FP system would often get 3-4 FPs in a single day to E-ticket and popular attractions. With FP+, Disney tried to replicate that experience.. FOR EVERYONE.. by promising EVERYONE 3 FPs per day..
But here is the thing: There aren't enough E-ticket and high popularity attractions for everyone to get to cut the line 3 times per day. This resulted in attractions that have no need for FP, getting FP added... And resulted in "tiers" being necessary in 3 of the parks.
Back in the old days, not everyone really took advantage of paper FP. Lots of people didn't really bother to understand it. It required a lot of legwork.. running to the FP machine, then having to come back later. Top priority FPs required arrival early in the morning. Even facing a 30 minute line, plenty of guests opted to take the approach of, "may as well wait in the line, instead of walking all the way to the FP machine, (often at the front of a long queue), then have to go kill time for a couple hours, only to have to come back later.
Basically... the only FP system worked great for those that understood it and were willing to put in the work.
So if the goal of FP+ was to give ALL guests the original FP experience, then it failed miserably: There just isn't enough capacity to give every single guest 3 real fastpasses. So you get fastpasses to things that are always walk-on, line shows. You also get more spots being dedicated to FP -- resulting in even longer lines for standby.
If the goal of FP+ was simply to *force* people into less popular attractions -- "guess I'll get a FP for the Muppets since everything else at DHS is unavailable.." -- That really isn't a positive for the guest experience.
If Disney does revise the FP system -- My hope would be to reduce the promise. Change it to something more like the DL Maxpass. Or if you do keep the bones of FP+... reduce the number offered. Maybe 3 for on-site deluxe guests.. 2 for on-site mod/value guests, and off-site guests can only book 1 FP in advance.
Of course, that's not "fair" -- Deluxe guests would see a dramatic improvement in the FP system, while off-site guests may get it slightly worse.
But at least it would let guests have control over their fastpass experience with their wallet... A better experience if they deem it worth paying for. (which they also already do with VIP tours)
jaklgreen
Well-Known Member
The issue is the you FEEL that a person shouldn't "have to" plan a trip to WDW. But that is not reality. WDW is not Six Flags, it is a multi park, recreation and dining destination. It is almost a city unto itself. Most people go to other amusement parks for the day, not plan week long(and longer) vacations for it. Can you go and not plan anything? Sure, but don't expect to have the same kind of experience that others do. You act as if planning is some kind of a bad thing. OMG they are "making" me get some knowledge before I go somewhere, how dare they!
Knowledge is never a bad thing. It does not take away any of the "fun", in fact, it is the opposite. I have seen so many families with their heads in the map(now phone)wasting time trying to figure out what and where to eat, where what rides are, etc. The amount of times I hear someone ask a cast member where a certain ride is, that is not even in that park is laughable. Some of the rides that they ask about are at US and not even at WDW. You can't deny that these people would have a better experience if they had more knowledge about where they are spending all of their time and money. You think that do some research and having knowledge of your destination ahead of time is wasting you time, that's fine. But to me, a waste of time is not knowing what I am doing and trying to figure it out when I get there. And as far as being concerned for our safety. You are just thinking of inside the parks. I don't feel unsafe in the park, but I am very cautious about walking back to my room from the bus stop when it is dark. Many times, I am the only one on the path and they are very dark. So yes, I do worry about my safety. But you didn't think of that did you? You were more concerned with making us look like nut jobs for having concerns for our safety.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
I am no longer going to respond to this crap. I have tried to explain over and over what this topic is about and you insist on twisting it to some sort of conspiracy. I am through, if you don't want to understand what is being said there is nothing more I can say to make you understand. So enjoy whatever you decide to do or do because you have to do.The issue is the you FEEL that a person shouldn't "have to" plan a trip to WDW. But that is not reality. WDW is not Six Flags, it is a multi park, recreation and dining destination. It is almost a city unto itself. Most people go to other amusement parks for the day, not plan week long(and longer) vacations for it. Can you go and not plan anything? Sure, but don't expect to have the same kind of experience that others do. You act as if planning is some kind of a bad thing. OMG they are "making" me get some knowledge before I go somewhere, how dare they!
Shouldigo12
Well-Known Member
I think it's a bit of a lost cause. Some people will never understand the problems the other side has, no matter how you try to explain it.The issue is the you FEEL that a person shouldn't "have to" plan a trip to WDW. But that is not reality. WDW is not Six Flags, it is a multi park, recreation and dining destination. It is almost a city unto itself. Most people go to other amusement parks for the day, not plan week long(and longer) vacations for it. Can you go and not plan anything? Sure, but don't expect to have the same kind of experience that others do. You act as if planning is some kind of a bad thing. OMG they are "making" me get some knowledge before I go somewhere, how dare they!
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
Goodness. That isn't what he is saying. My family goes to Universal all the time without making major plans. We just wander around and ride/eat whatever we feel like for a few days. WDW used to be plan-free like that. The other poster just misses what WDW was like before FP. Did you not understand that? Is it not valid for him to remember the before times with fondness?The issue is the you FEEL that a person shouldn't "have to" plan a trip to WDW. But that is not reality. WDW is not Six Flags, it is a multi park, recreation and dining destination. It is almost a city unto itself. Most people go to other amusement parks for the day, not plan week long(and longer) vacations for it. Can you go and not plan anything? Sure, but don't expect to have the same kind of experience that others do. You act as if planning is some kind of a bad thing. OMG they are "making" me get some knowledge before I go somewhere, how dare they!
Just in 2019, an adult female member of my family went solo to WDW without any plans at all. She found a cheap last minute flight + hotel deal and hopped on the plane. She barely packed anything! She called me when she arrived to tell me what FP she was able to get with no pre-booked FP, no pre-bought ticket. She just bought her ticket at the gate with a credit card. Granted she's been to WDW before, but she just wanted to escape winter for a long weekend.
She seriously didn't worry about her safety walking around WDW.
Now I have been to WDW many times over with people who have severe food allergies (and other health concerns). Certainly people with food allergies (and/or other health concerns) have to be cautious when traveling, but I don't think that's what you meant. Plus, food allergies don't generally impede ones' ability to use FP.
jaklgreen
Well-Known Member
No, if you read through the posts it is clear that he thinks these "type A" planners, that like and utilize FP+ are stupid for planning ahead. Wanting to get rid of FP+ to "level the playing field" for him because he does not want to bother with doing any pre-planning. He can feel that way, but that does not mean that we all can or want to have the same approach to our trips. The good news is that no one "has" to book their FP+ ahead of time if they don't want to. But to expect others to not do it because you don't want to is a bit much. To be clear, I feel as safe at WDW as I can anywhere, but that is still not the same level of "safe" that men feel.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but in his first post in this thread, #15, he says he has used FP. He says, "those of us with a FP would." (= he has used a FP.)
He then goes on to say, " I went many years before FP and yes the lines "seemed" long, but it turns out if you keep moving the time is faster and all of us had a good time in the switchback laughing about our plight, BUT, it was part of the overall experience. We would talk with people, laugh and joke and when we got to the ride WE GOT ON NEXT. There was no group of people all of a sudden coming up and "legally" cutting line while you cooled your heals waiting. I can honestly say that when FP was introduced it was the first time in all my years of going there that anger was part of the line."
Again, he's said he noticed a difference in the experience between pre-FP and post FP.
In a later post, he defended people who can't afford to stay onsite. People who can't afford to stay onsite had to book FP at 30 days. Onsite customers were able to book theirs 30 days earlier.
You 'liked' his post, #99, where he defended park visitors who stay offsite and/or don't know the FP system, because they are at a disadvantage (compared to those who know the FP system well). He expounded the same idea in post #133.
In post #122, he says he hopes people are still honest, and anyone who takes a DAS when they don't need it is 'low.'
It was you who called non-planners 'fools.' He again defended those who stay offsite, and said, "everyone looks at life differently and that goes for what makes a vacation a vacation."
Your next post opened with, "you see things through a man's eyes." He didn't say anything remotely like that at all. If any poster in this entire thread has consistently defended and been the voice for the less fortunate/less wealthy/less experienced WDW - starting on page #1, it has been @Goofyernmost.
These are stressful times, and we're all a little tense right now. Still, this is a Disney forum; something we do for fun, and this is a thread about Fastpass. Everyone is free to like it or not like, but we'd all do well to discuss it in a way that is civil. In the words of the Bob Ross, "We don't laugh because we feel good. We feel good because we laugh."
Trackmaster
Well-Known Member
I think that one way to describe what's going on with the FP+ and the need for some kind of free virtual queuing system like universal health care. Sure, the ACA isn't perfect, and no one in particular is really saying that its the greatest system in the world or is completely happy with it, but as people say: you need some healthcare plan in place, and if Republicans don't like the ACA they need to come up with a different program. Offering no healthcare to millions of people just shouldn't be an option.
Similarly, with the prices that Disney charges and the technology at our fingertips, nobody would say that FP+ is perfect, but if you scrap it, you need some time of free virtual queuing system to get people on rides without them having to wait hours for it and that works well.
Similarly, with the prices that Disney charges and the technology at our fingertips, nobody would say that FP+ is perfect, but if you scrap it, you need some time of free virtual queuing system to get people on rides without them having to wait hours for it and that works well.
Disstevefan1
Well-Known Member
I have a love hate relationship with Fastpass + .
When they implemented the Fastpass + system, they made attractions that were previously NOT a fast pass attraction, now a Fastpass attraction, this created artificial demand for these attractions. Attractions that were previously non Fastpass and were always walk ons, now have long standby lines.
On the other hand, I would have never ridden FOP had it not been for fast pass.
Maybe they should make a hybrid of the old paper systems and the new Fastpass +
How about this-
No more Fastpass + as we know it
Use the boarding group system for ONLY the few most popular attractions.
All other attractions are standby only.
Chi84
Premium Member
I believe there will always be a ride reservation system of some kind. Not everyone wants to get to the parks first thing in the morning or stand in lines, even if they are shorter ones. This is especially true of older guests, and Disney gets a lot of multi-generational families. Like it or not, Disney is likely to continue to accommodate these guests, even if it ends up using a paid FP system of some kind.
I have 15+ lifetime visits to WDW/DL from 1970s to 2016, and yes pre-planning has become more necessary because of the increase in crowds (well until COVID that is), and although I would prefer not to use FP+, if one is spending $$$$$$$ and limited time on vacation at WDW (we typically only go for 4-5) days, then spending hours in line each day is waste of that money and time. So using FP helps us get to experience the busiest attractions and ones we really what to do while in a park. If WDW gives any advantages to visitors, including if only for those staying on site, that helps us avoid crowds and lines I for one am taking advantage. Same for taking advantage of early access or extended hours, if available. But if WDW were to start to charge for extra morning or evening hours (holiday parties an exception, but they are already increasing in number and cost) or a paid FP+ option, it will simply reduce the number of trips or days we visit WDW. To honest, the higher costs and extensive planning are a burden for many, I get that, and frankly can't imagine how it is taking young kids to WDW with all the complex planning required. And I have visited with kids along (early 2000s), but also just alone or couple trips which are much easier to do with less or no planning. If I want a relaxing, stress free, no planning required vacation, where I can get up each morning when I want and then decide what to do that day, then I am not going to WDW but to a beach resort. And yes having to approach a WDW as a stressful, non-relaxing and complex planned vacation is a terrible thing but a reality these days unfortunately.
Honestly, Disneyland's FP system, including Maxpass is by far superior to FP+. No, you can't choose what time to ride, but if you have dining reservations linked to your account the app can account for those and you don't have to book in advance, which means there isn't a big problem with people books FPs ahead of time and not showing up like WDW has, which also helps the standby queues move faster because Disney doesn't have to try to account for that by overbooking FPs and they can control how many FPs are available at any given time based on crowd levels and such. No preplanning is needed, just go and enjoy your day and book FPs when you want to use them, no limits on the number (just can't book a second one until after the time it gave you that you can book another one). Make dining reservations day of only as well and you could make it completely stress free.