The Dark Knight Countdown

[imagineer boy]

I don't really get why Nolan thinks the penguin is too silly, because he's relatively simple. All he is is just a guy who was born with birth defects that make him look sort of like a penguin. And later he becomes in charge of a large mob group and conceals a gun in his umbrella to shoot unsuspecting victims. I think any batman villain can be done in Nolan's versions if they're done right. Besides, the penguin is one of the most well known batman villains, so he has to use him somewhere.

I like the idea of using Talia Al Ghul though. Just imagine a love triangle between batman, talia, catwoman, and whatever chick Bruce wayne is dating.

And I also like the idea of Killer Croc being simple thug for a main villain. Maybe for the penguin since the penguin isn't physical enough to fight batman.

In fact, here's my idea for the scenario of the next movie: Two Face is in charge of a large mob and the Penguin's mob is becoming powerful too, and both mobs are threatening to get into a mob war that could turn the streets of gotham into chaos. And its up to batman to stop them!

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I don't really get why Nolan thinks the penguin is too silly, because he's relatively simple. All he is is just a guy who was born with birth defects that make him look sort of like a penguin. And later he becomes in charge of a large mob group and conceals a gun in his umbrella to shoot unsuspecting victims. I think any batman villain can be done in Nolan's versions if they're done right. Besides, the penguin is one of the most well known batman villains, so he has to use him somewhere.

I think Penguin has his place, but it's not front and center. I think the current DC Comics portrayal is about perfect, where Oswald Cobblepot (too cultured a man to go by such a silly name as Penguin, of course) puts up a front as a respectable businessman/restaurant owner while making illegal deals in the back rooms. Batman leans on him for information and tries to catch him doing dirty deeds, but that's about the extent of it.

Basically, I think Penguin works well as an aspirational social climber and (as you say) ringleader, but it gets questionable when you portray him as a real challenge to Batman one-on-one. Other than the umbrella shtick, he doesn't have any fighting skills. I say use Penguin, but keep him more behind the scenes, setting fires for Batman to put out while appearing to keep his nose clean.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

By the way, I'll concede that anything could potentially work and freely admit that my anti-Penguin stance could be mostly due to seeing Danny Devito's performance so recently. I honestly felt like Christopher Walken's character (Max Schreck) was more of a criminal mastermind than Penguin in that movie. :lol:

 

[Timmay]

New single day record.

$66 million, beating Spider-Man's $59 million

 

[imagineer boy]

By the way, I'll concede that anything could potentially work and freely admit that my anti-Penguin stance could be mostly due to seeing Danny Devito's performance so recently. I honestly felt like Christopher Walken's character (Max Schreck) was more of a criminal mastermind than Penguin in that movie. :lol:

Well I don't blame you for that.:lol: Danny DeVito portrayed the penguin as some sort of half human half penguin monster. In the comics and animated series the penguin is portrayed more like a corrupt, high roller gentleman.

And I thought the Max Schrek character was so pointless in batman returns. It couldn't be more obviouse that Tim Burton just created this characer so he could work with Christopher Walken.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

I just saw it...loved all 150minutes of it.

Put the Joker in the vault...Sorry Jack, but Mr. Ledger made your Joker look like a it was done by a high school drama club actor.

Why So Serious?

BTW, I loved the "Nurse" outfit :lol:

 

[Timmay]

I just saw it...loved all 150minutes of it.

Put the Joker in the vault...Sorry Jack, but Mr. Ledger made your Joker look like a it was done by a high school drama club actor.

To be fair, Nicholson played a very different type of Joker...one that we have seen many times in the comics, just as many as Ledger's Joker. Nolan chose to go the much darker, disturbed Joker route.
I just started re-reading The Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told last night, and Nicholson had his type of Joker down pretty good.
What was so good about Ledger's performance was that Nolan asked him to read The Long Halloween and The Killing Joke. Ledger said he tried, but just couldn't get into the stories...but just from seeing the Joker, he knew how he should be.

 

[Number_6]

Saw it yesterday in IMAX and I loved it. Also enjoyed seeing the Watchmen trailer as well as our theater having a maybe 30 second long thing indicating "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince with select portions in IMAX 3-D."

As for the movie, I agree with pretty much everyone else that Heath Ledger was amazing as The Joker. And I was among those that when I heard about him being cast in the role, I groaned at first. Then figured they could do worse. The got excited as I heard the early interviews and reviews saying how incredible he was. And in the end, the performance lived up to the hype, IMO. "I'm going to make this pencil disappear."

I would have liked to have seen a little more Two-Face. Hopefully they just shoved him in Arkham and gave everyone else the impression he was dead so he can come back in later movies. My personal favorite Batman Villain is The Riddler. But I like him more as the bored genius looking to match wits with the police and Batman than the over-the-top Jim Carrey style. I think a Chris Nolan Riddler would be a little more dark and menacing, starting out with small things and going to larger and more spectacular crimes and riddles. It could be brilliant, but like the previous mention of Penguin, he'd definitely need a little hired muscle to back him up. We wouldn't want another Riddler/Two-Face team up because it would give people flashbacks to Batman Forever. Killer Croc is always good muscle. Though a stupid sounding name, Killer Moth was the Villains version of Batman and would help criminals by dropping in and taking care of the Police so the crooks could get away, but only if he was being paid. Or go with an even lesser criminal, like Firebug who is a demolitions expert. But whatever Villain they go with, if Chris Nolan is still involved, I'm definitely going to watch.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

We showed up 30 minutes early yesterday to get good seats. Got to our theater and see a line forming outside the door. So we start walking to find the back of it. Turn a corner, line still going. Turn ANOTHER corner, line STILL going. We're in some kind of bare-bones employees-only hallway, far away from any screen, before we reach the back of the line.

I'm thinking "Now I know this movie is going to do well, but can it really be THIS popular?" and imagining how big this theater would have to be to even hold all these people.

It turned out that the theater had canceled the IMAX showing right before our regular showing because of technical problems and shoved everybody from that show into ours. I turned to one of my buddies and asked where the FastPass line was. :lol:

I'm already itching to see it again, but I'm wondering if it would be worth it to wait a week or so for the hype to die down, so I could just walk up to an IMAX showing. For those who've seen it in IMAX, how was it visually? Is it obvious which scenes were filmed using the IMAX cameras?

 

[Timmay]

I'm already itching to see it again, but I'm wondering if it would be worth it to wait a week or so for the hype to die down, so I could just walk up to an IMAX showing. For those who've seen it in IMAX, how was it visually? Is it obvious which scenes were filmed using the IMAX cameras?

You have to know what you are looking for to really notice the Imax scenes...they are integrated very well. There are two pretty long scenes in Imax, with several other shorter ones. The second longer one is just incredible!!

Oh...number one weekend of all time. $155 Million (that is just domestic, by the way). I figured this would hit the $80 million mark for OW...but this is something else. It has a real chance to hit $400 million mark.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Well, I'm back from my second viewing, and liked it even better this time around. I doubt anybody will argue that Ledger turns in the best performance, but for my money, the SECOND-best outing is Michael Caine as Alfred. And that's before you even get to Morgan Freeman. :lol:

I stayed in town for this one, and sice there aren't any IMAX screens at the local theater, that might be the plan for Viewing No. 3 (which I'm thinking is a likely event).

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Do we need to put up spoiler warnings before discussing details from the plot? If so, SPOILER WARNING.











OK, with that out of the way...was anybody else initially confused by the warehouse rescue scene? Batman jumps on his bike, tells Gordon he's going after Rachel, then goes after Harvey instead.

I couldn't figure out at first why he'd choose saving Harvey over the woman he loves, but the only answer that makes sense is he loves Gotham City more. Harvey represents hope for Gotham City, so he chooses to save him over the girl.

Also, Joker talks about how his intent all along was to bring Harvey down, which if true means he KNEW Batman would choose Harvey over Rachel, AND knew that Rachel's death would push Harvey over the edge. (All of which pretty much shows what a liar he was when he told Harvey in the hospital room that he wasn't one of the "schemers" and "just did things.")

Also, Gordon went to try to save Rachel while sending his cops to Harvey's location, even though Batman told him he was going after Rachel...so Gordon must have known Batman was lying, or was going to change his mind en route. Gordon knew Batman would choose the city's symbol of hope, even if he said otherwise.

And finally, since Gordon did go after Rachel, there was at least a chance that both of them could have been saved, but Joker seemed to know that one of them wouldn't be. I guess this comes down to Joker understanding that only Batman was fast enough to get to one of them? (Gordon never got in the building, but he was right there, so a few more seconds and he could have gotten to her.)

So what do the rest of you think? Am I overanalyzing this sequence, or does any of what I'm saying make sense? None of this was overtly explained, so I'm doing my best to fill in the gaps. :lol:

 

[Green Lantern]

What praise can I add that wasn't already given? Excellent film. These will make the perfect series of films. Perfect.

I don't think Nolan will recast Joker. I think he has too much respect for Ledger to do that. Of course, I can be wrong. I don't know Chris Nolan, but I don't think he would recast the character. NO ONE can play Joker like Ledger did. Anyone even attempting to do so would not only cause Fan Boy outrage, but I just don't think anyone could get the voice, the mannerisms, the total character that Ledger created.

 

[Timmay]

SPOILER****************************

OK, with that out of the way...was anybody else initially confused by the warehouse rescue scene? Batman jumps on his bike, tells Gordon he's going after Rachel, then goes after Harvey instead.:

The Joker lied about the locations.

I couldn't figure out at first why he'd choose saving Harvey over the woman he loves

Joker needed Batman to save Dent...he knew Batman would save Rachael over Dent.

Also, Joker talks about how his intent all along was to bring Harvey down, which if true means he KNEW Batman would choose Harvey over Rachel, AND knew that Rachel's death would push Harvey over the edge. (All of which pretty much shows what a liar he was when he told Harvey in the hospital room that he wasn't one of the "schemers" and "just did things.")

He was telling the truth to Dent, kind of. Joker is both the "planner" and the dog that doesn't know what to do with the car once he catches it. He is crazy. Smart and cunning, but still crazy. Things tend to go Jokers way for a while, but in the end, he messes up with his beliefe in what people will do. See below...

And finally, since Gordon did go after Rachel, there was at least a chance that both of them could have been saved, but Joker seemed to know that one of them wouldn't be. I guess this comes down to Joker understanding that only Batman was fast enough to get to one of them

Joker got what he wanted with Dent, but as we saw from the scene at the end where he gave the passengers a chance to kill the other passengers, he doesn't really know people very well. Oh, he knows what can get to them, what frightens them, but he has no clue as to how well people respond to their fellow man and their community. Batman knows, that is why he has always defeated the Joker with brains, not muscle.

 

[SeaBreeze]

Do we need to put up spoiler warnings before discussing details from the plot? If so, SPOILER WARNING.


OK, with that out of the way...was anybody else initially confused by the warehouse rescue scene? Batman jumps on his bike, tells Gordon he's going after Rachel, then goes after Harvey instead.

The first time I saw the movie (yes, I saw it twice this weekend :lol: Liked it even more after round 2) I was wondering the same thing. When I saw it today though, it made a ton of sense and Timmay explained it perfectly. Batman definitely thought he was getting Rachel; if you looked at him closely, you could tell he was a bit surprised to see Dent there instead. I also noticed all the opportunities The Joker had to kill Batman and never did... for instance, when he thought Dent was Batman he was shooting at the SWAT vehicle, but not to kill him. Once he realized he wasn't Batman, well off he went into killing mode.

It's such a great movie; definitely one of the best I've seen. I really hope Nolan returns to do another one. There have been viral marketing hints, as well as some comments by Gary Oldman, hinting that The Riddler is on deck.

 

[xsupaxmanxsfnex]

Just saw it today. What a great movie! Did anybody else jump out of their socks when the "dead" batman swung and hit the window? I DID! :lol:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

SPOILAGE

The Joker lied about the locations.

Wow, that never even occurred to me. This is definitely one of those flicks where repeated viewings (and maybe a DVD purchase for quick rewinds) would come in handy. :lol:

So really, his whole "experiment" over who Batman would choose was meaningless? Or maybe not, if he already knew the answer, and just flipped the options to suit his own purposes.

Absolutely right about his failure when it came to predicting the outcome on the two boats. It seems he understands Batman better than he does average people. (Geez, too many layers of interpretation here the deeper you get.) :lol:

So anyway...who else thinks the Batman/Joker interrogation scene was THE iconic/defining moment of the whole thing?

 

[Wilt Dasney]

EVEN MORE SPOILING AHEAD

I also noticed all the opportunities The Joker had to kill Batman and never did... for instance, when he thought Dent was Batman he was shooting at the SWAT vehicle, but not to kill him. Once he realized he wasn't Batman, well off he went into killing mode.

And that leads into another interesting point...Joker tells the gangsters he'll kill Batman for half their money, but it turns out he's not interested in killing Batman OR in money. He's just playing everybody, and you can't believe anything he says, if you're trying to figure out his motivations (other than the "agent of chaos" speech he gives to Two-Face. That might be the only honest thing he says in the whole movie.)

He even makes up two different stories about how he got his scars (and is apparently about to make up a third when Batman slices him on the rooftop). It reminds me of THE KILLING JOKE, when he says of his past "sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another."


Man, what a great movie. :lol:

 

[Number_6]

I really hope Nolan returns to do another one. There have been viral marketing hints, as well as some comments by Gary Oldman, hinting that The Riddler is on deck.

Really? What kind of hints?

 

[WDWFREAK53]

So anyway...who else thinks the Batman/Joker interrogation scene was THE iconic/defining moment of the whole thing?

I'll agree with you there...but THE moment you know the Joker is one you don't want to mess with was the "disappearing pencil trick."

WOW...what a way to introduce a character :lol: