News Test Track to be reimagined

[V_L_Raptor]

The “future” in “Future World” became the next year’s worth of earnings calls. All the riffing on meeting characters and everything else hangs from that.

 

[OptimusPrime]

The real answer is no, but I know that’s hard pill to swallow. I’m a major EPCOT fan, wish more than anything that I got to experience most of the original stuff, but the truth is that we don’t get any element of the park’s core ideas and themes, even fleeting ones, without the inclusion of IP.

That’s not even necessarily all Disney’s choice. The guests actively want that. The percentage of people hungry for OLDCOT style attractions with no IP and such is far dwarfed by the percentage of people who aren’t.

But beyond that, time just caught up to EPCOT in the same way it did Tomorrowland. The future gets here eventually and it just isn’t workable to come in and redo attractions every 10 or 15 years when the world catches up to their views of tomorrow. All of the muses of tomorrow of those classic EPCOT rides have been passed.

The original ones that remain either rooted themselves mostly in the past (SSE, though it does touch on tomorrow, it is mainly a look back) or deal with ideas relevant to today (LWtL).

That combined with the demands of I’d say a solid 95-97% of the guests visiting these parks is what has changed EPCOT.

The original EPCOT was wonderful. Iconic. But no, it would not survive in 2024. In some other timeline maybe but the world we live in showed that the future EPCOT looked to just was never going to come to fruition and it would make those attractions seem very out of place these days.

It’s hard to remember now but there was a time when EPCOT was viewed as a dying place and that was right when they began this almost 25 year cycle now of tinkering with it. Had they just let it sit any longer I honestly think EPCOT would look even less like it’s original self today.

What the audiences want changed. We cannot sit here and say “it worked then” and still blindly believe it would now. It wouldn’t. The audience of 1981 and the audience of 2024 are not the same. Time changes all cultures. What the people who participate in that culture, especially pop culture, want changes.

Disney fans, and EPCOT fans in general; just have to remember that they are but a small drop of water in a large sea. Disney cannot, and should not, cater just to us. If they did, these parks would one day cease to exist because what we want is not always (in fact rarely) is not going to align with what the majority wants.

Disney parks are parks for the majority. They always have been, that was Walt’s whole point. He didn’t anticipate the parks picking up a dedicated fandom, and you know I doubt he’d be playing right to them even he became aware of one had he lived to see it.

I understand Disney Adults are attached to these places and their memories of them. That’s what makes us Disney Adults.

But we cannot be selfish, and demanding they stay as whatever they were when we were kids getting to experience them is the most selfish thing we as fans can do. We have to accept the change because, well, these parks are for other people to come in and make their own memories now. We can either choose to come along for that, or be the curmudgeons sitting around with a frown saying “well back in my day.”

I would much rather be the former than the latter.

This. Entirely this. While I think we don’t have to necessarily “accept change” from the POV of just letting it happen, I think that it’s important to remember that, when this stuff happens, there’s usually reasons behind it (and on multiple occasions the replacement is better. Especially with some of the recent Epcot replacements (Guardians. Frozen))

I think the time to truly be spiteful about change is when you take something that everyone loved and royally mess it up to the point where even the general public doesn’t like it (Communicore. WithFig)

Imagineering didn’t have to make Guardians fit Epcot. But they went out of their way to make the attraction fit Epcot, and I think that the queue and set up makes it feel like an Epcot attraction enough. (You can’t throw everything in Hollywood Studios for the love of SpongeBob. Guardians fits less on Sunset than it does in the future technology place, even based on your skewed childhood version of it)

At the end of the day, they make these things for the general public, but they’re starting to throw bones to the people like us when they do it. They made the Moana attraction an educational walkthrough.

 

[OptimusPrime]

The “future” in “Future World” became the next year’s worth of earnings calls. All the riffing on meeting characters and everything else hangs from that.

And it’s been like that ever since it became Eric Idle and Ellen. The only difference is that, unlike when they were doing it in the 90’s and 00’s, Guardians and Moana are pretty good. But also I can’t imagine Communicore Hall was part of such an earnings call lmao

 

[danlb_2000]

They're not wasting any time here. Maybe this really will be ready by next July.

Goes fast when someone else is paying the bill.

 

[DisneyCane]

“Keep IP out of Epcot” is one of the many statements made by Disney Adults who are culture blind and think that the parks are theirs.

At the end of the day, it’s foolish to say this, along with some other classics I’ve seen on this forum like “Marvel has no place in the parks.”

These parks are for families. Yes, they have offerings to appeal to those like us, but at the end of the day it’s elitist to say these things.

Families have expectations of what they will see when they go to Disney. Right now, those expectations include Frozen, Moana, Guardians of the Galaxy, catch my drift? These people want to go to Disney to see what their family currently loves.

What most forum members want is to go to exactly what their childhood was. They would rather alienate the family audience coming to see Elsa and Star-Lord so that they can see an outdated energy lecture and a hodgepodge Norway boat ride.

IP free Epcot doesn’t work today because audience taste changes. And this isn’t a “general audience is getting dumber” thing. This is simply how times change. Disney is in the home now more than ever whatnot with how cheap DVDs have gotten and especially now with Disney+. Previously, seeing original characters such as Figment, the Country Bears, or even for many Br’er Rabbit, was part of the Disney experience, as it is a similar feeling to seeing a new Disney movie in theaters. You go to the theater and you meet Aladdin and his Genie, just as you go to the park and meet Dreamfinder and Figment.

Nowadays, Disney’s brand is built heavily around the characters you know. Yes, new characters get popular, but they become popular via cultural osmosis as opposed to people going to experience the new Disney adventure. This is how Encanto got so big.

So now, the expectation with Disney is that you’re going to see your family’s favorite characters. You’re going to see Tiana, Anna, Star-Lord. Because that’s what Disney is to that family.

IP isn't really the issue. It's putting IP into places that don't make thematic sense. One of Walt's main ideas was to cross promote between the studio and Disneyland. There were plenty of IP based attractions in Walt's day as well. People like to remember only the non-IP based ones.

 

[larryz]

Encanto and Indiana Jones in Animal Kingdom? Does not fit.

Once again, as I've said before:
1) Encanto's plot is heavily animal dependent
2) EVERY Indiana Jones movie prominently features animals (or insects, sometimes both)

Animal = Animal

IP isn't really the issue. It's putting IP into places that don't make thematic sense. One of Walt's main ideas was to cross promote between the studio and Disneyland. There were plenty of IP based attractions in Walt's day as well. People like to remember only the non-IP based ones.

Welcome to the 21st Century at Disney, where the only thematic convention has become "If we build it, they will spend."

 

[DisneyCane]

Once again, as I've said before:
1) Encanto's plot is heavily animal dependent
2) EVERY Indiana Jones movie prominently features animals (or insects, sometimes both)

Animal = Animal


Welcome to the 21st Century at Disney, where the only thematic convention has become "If we build it, they will spend."

Snakes, why does it always have to be snakes?!?

 

[doctornick]

Still impressed on the TRON and GOTG fumble. Absolutely the worst mix-up of all time on where IPs should go.

Thematically I'd agree that they should be in each other spots. Definitely feel like Tron would be a good IP for Epcot if you needed something there.

But from a ride and experience standpoint, Cosmic Rewind is the better choice for Epcot. The park really needed something like that and Tron is too "thrilling"/height restricted/short for what Epcot needed.

 

[RSoxNo1]

would an ip free Epcot survive in this day and age ? I look at my own kids as an example, and I genuinely think they would be board out of their minds with the majority of the rides Epcot had to offer back then outside of journey into your imagination.

The real answer is no, but I know that’s hard pill to swallow. I’m a major EPCOT fan, wish more than anything that I got to experience most of the original stuff, but the truth is that we don’t get any element of the park’s core ideas and themes, even fleeting ones, without the inclusion of IP.

That’s not even necessarily all Disney’s choice. The guests actively want that. The percentage of people hungry for OLDCOT style attractions with no IP and such is far dwarfed by the percentage of people who aren’t.

But beyond that, time just caught up to EPCOT in the same way it did Tomorrowland. The future gets here eventually and it just isn’t workable to come in and redo attractions every 10 or 15 years when the world catches up to their views of tomorrow. All of the muses of tomorrow of those classic EPCOT rides have been passed.

The original ones that remain either rooted themselves mostly in the past (SSE, though it does touch on tomorrow, it is mainly a look back) or deal with ideas relevant to today (LWtL).

That combined with the demands of I’d say a solid 95-97% of the guests visiting these parks is what has changed EPCOT.

The original EPCOT was wonderful. Iconic. But no, it would not survive in 2024. In some other timeline maybe but the world we live in showed that the future EPCOT looked to just was never going to come to fruition and it would make those attractions seem very out of place these days.

It’s hard to remember now but there was a time when EPCOT was viewed as a dying place and that was right when they began this almost 25 year cycle now of tinkering with it. Had they just let it sit any longer I honestly think EPCOT would look even less like it’s original self today.

What the audiences want changed. We cannot sit here and say “it worked then” and still blindly believe it would now. It wouldn’t. The audience of 1981 and the audience of 2024 are not the same. Time changes all cultures. What the people who participate in that culture, especially pop culture, want changes.

Disney fans, and EPCOT fans in general; just have to remember that they are but a small drop of water in a large sea. Disney cannot, and should not, cater just to us. If they did, these parks would one day cease to exist because what we want is not always (in fact rarely) is not going to align with what the majority wants.

Disney parks are parks for the majority. They always have been, that was Walt’s whole point. He didn’t anticipate the parks picking up a dedicated fandom, and you know I doubt he’d be playing right to them even he became aware of one had he lived to see it.

I understand Disney Adults are attached to these places and their memories of them. That’s what makes us Disney Adults.

But we cannot be selfish, and demanding they stay as whatever they were when we were kids getting to experience them is the most selfish thing we as fans can do. We have to accept the change because, well, these parks are for other people to come in and make their own memories now. We can either choose to come along for that, or be the curmudgeons sitting around with a frown saying “well back in my day.”

I would much rather be the former than the latter.

IP based attractions are not the only problem plaguing EPCOT right now. The issue is that Disney is learning the wrong lessons from their mistakes. There are plenty of IP based additions that can and will work for EPCOT now and in the future. The problem is one of integration and quality.

To be clear, since there's always somebody that has to chime in with this comment. When I refer to IP based additions, I'm largely referring to movie based (or other non-theme park original) IP.

When you introduce anything new to an existing area you run the risk of diluting the previously established themes of that area. This has been EPCOT's problem since the mid-90s. At that point in time, the park was largely free of IP with the exception of many classic characters appearing in various Futuristic or Culturally "appropriate" costumes throughout the park.

Disney has tried on several occasions to build a non castle park without significant character representation and the masses generally reject the idea in some capacity. Like it or not, EPCOT was no different and the character additions happened rather quickly.

The first evolution of EPCOT wasn't an IP evolution. It was a modernizing of the park and a push towards thrill attractions. At the time, that was what was perceived as the weakness and that's what fueled the push for the original Test Track, Mission: SPACE and Soarin'. By all accounts, I think it's safe to say that Disney was 2 for 3 with those changes. Some may disagree, but the changes didn't fundamentally dilute the themes of the park while addressing the need for thrills.

The problems came with the non-thrill changes like Figment and Nemo. Figment saw a loose IP tie in with the accompanying show being more of the IP driven show and Nemo was flat out an overlay to an existing attraction. Nemo was the biggest theme dilution of anything, but I'd argue that Turtle Talk with Crush absolutely works as an EPCOT attraction.

Once The Seas with Nemo and Friends were added, the willingness to push IP into EPCOT was a lot easier. The mental gymnastics to explain the choices became more convoluted and the park drifted further away from it's original goals. The fundamental issue I have is how they've used the IPs.

IP usage is designed to play up familiarity, but I strongly believe the true attendance boost is nothing more than a year one marketing push. We would joke on our podcast when mentioning attraction ideas, "Did I just do a synergy"? It really seems that short sighted. The reason why EPCOT currently feels disjointed is because it is. The front part, while aesthetically more interesting than the previous iteration has no connective tissue. There is no non-linear story telling that brings it all together.

I, as well as others have been writing and complaining about this type of thing for quite some time. I really believe the issue is that current Disney leadership has learned the wrong lessons over the years about what makes an attraction great. Fortunately, there's still enough creative talent that they're still able to produce great things, but I don't believe the IP mandate has made things any more or less successful than when there was a healthy mixture of original attractions and IP based attractions.

For reference, this is what Bob Iger said shortly before the last big attraction building push at Disney World:

As we spend money at the parks on new attractions that are based on known intellectual property and brands, the likelihood of their success is greater. So when we increase Toy Story’s presence or other Pixar presence, when we put Frozen in the parks, when we grow Star Wars presence, which we will do significantly, when we do it with Princess, for instance, you’re going to see, I think, basically better bets being made that pay off, that are more likely to pay off for us than some of the bets that were made in the past. – Bob Iger, Quarter 3, Fiscal Year 2014 Earnings Call

 

[RSoxNo1]

Encanto and Indiana Jones in Animal Kingdom? Does not fit.

I completely disagree and really like the story treatments that they're going for.

If anything, they're doing more of a disservice to the IPs than to DAK.

 

[PizzaPlanet]

Still impressed on the TRON and GOTG fumble. Absolutely the worst mix-up of all time on where IPs should go.

Idk, Guardians as-is would’ve felt even more redundant next to Space Mountain than Tron does today. Maybe if it was a completely different ride system, but Cosmic Rewind is just so fun…

 

[erasure fan1]

IP isn't really the issue. It's putting IP into places that don't make thematic sense. One of Walt's main ideas was to cross promote between the studio and Disneyland. There were plenty of IP based attractions in Walt's day as well. People like to remember only the non-IP based ones.

Yup, that's what I've been saying from the start of the ip debate. Most expect and want to see ip in the parks. Myself included. What I don't want is ip for the sake of ip. Give me an ip that fits, makes sense in the area that it's going, and I'll support you all the way.

 

[Bocabear]

Tron should have been at DHS... THey could have based an entire land off Tron and computer games... The tone would have been a better fit for DHS, and then they could have spent some money on TOmorrowland giving it a heart and soul again... Say what you want about the 94' makeover, but it at least had a direction....with Timekeeper, Alien Encounter and a completely refurbished and redecorated land full of color and eye candy. I love the mid-mod aesthetics of the original Tomorrowland most...but it seems like we are left in this in-between place. They need to create new attractions that have something to do with the theme of the land and boot the Monsters to DHS with the new Door coaster. There is plenty of space to work with in Tomorrowland...they just need some creativity, imagination, and a decent budget.

 

[zipadee999]

Tron should have been at DHS... THey could have based an entire land off Tron and computer games... The tone would have been a better fit for DHS, and then they could have spent some money on TOmorrowland giving it a heart and soul again... Say what you want about the 94' makeover, but it at least had a direction....with Timekeeper, Alien Encounter and a completely refurbished and redecorated land full of color and eye candy. I love the mid-mod aesthetics of the original Tomorrowland most...but it seems like we are left in this in-between place. They need to create new attractions that have something to do with the theme of the land and boot the Monsters to DHS with the new Door coaster. There is plenty of space to work with in Tomorrowland...they just need some creativity, imagination, and a decent budget.

My idea for a Tron land has always been something like Diagon Alley with a ‘secret’ entrance but here you’d walk into an 80s arcade and in the back you enter a hole in the wall that takes you into the land.

I feel that DHS needs more Sci-Fi. Galaxy’s Edge doesn’t feel Star Wars enough to do that on its own. If Tron had gone here or even if they decide to give Alien an attraction because of Romulus doing so well at the box office I feel that the ‘classic movies’ charm would be preserved. I’m ok with them moving away from ‘the making of movies’ and moving towards ‘step into the movies,’ but to do that they need to have greater film diversity from multiple genres that people of all ages can relate to rather than the cartoon-fest going on right now

 

[J4546]

I like tron in MK, but If they had built and incorporated a Flynns arcade that woulda been sweet. Theres still a space for an expansion building like in china where they have those interactive games and stuff, so maybe they will add that later.

 

[easyrowrdw]

I didn’t realize I disliked the canopy until I saw the ride without it. It looks great!

 

[OptimusPrime]

Tron should have been at DHS

NOT EVERYTHING BELONGS AT HOLLYWOOD STUDIOS.

Every fan of every park other than studios says any new addition belongs in studios. I swear to god I’ve seen people argue that Frozen belongs in studios before.

Tron is perfectly fine in Magic Kingdom. It’s a clone of another castle park’s ride. So duh it’s in the castle park.

 

[Epcot81Fan]

2) EVERY Indiana Jones movie prominently features animals (or insects, sometimes both)

Animal = Animal

 

[Gusey]

Yup, that's what I've been saying from the start of the ip debate. Most expect and want to see ip in the parks. Myself included. What I don't want is ip for the sake of ip. Give me an ip that fits, makes sense in the area that it's going, and I'll support you all the way.

Completely agree with this. However, sometimes an IP's theme can be up for interpretation. For example, I'd consider Monsters Inc Laugh Floor & Buzz Lightyear IPs that fit with Tomorrowland, as they both contain sci-fi elements. However some argue they don't fit at all in Tomorrowland because they don't represent the future

 

[erasure fan1]

Completely agree with this. However, sometimes an IP's theme can be up for interpretation.

Oh I agree and I'll take it a step further. How you use the IP can make all the difference. Take Avatar for example. There are ways to use that IP that would be an absolutely terrible fit for the animal kingdom. But the way they did it, works pretty well. There's a lot more that goes into the whole debate of IP or no IP. Or at least there should be.