Rumor Stitch's Great Escape Replacement— Don’t Hold Your Breath

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
We've been paying more for less for a long time now. Sadly. But yes, they seem to get away with it. Meanwhile, over in Anaheim (which is far from perfect), their Mickey ride is replacing a gift shop. A GIFT SHOP.

Heaven forbid we worry about capacity in Florida ...

Again...

We've just had built two new lands, Pandora and TSL. Two brand new lands. Four brand new rides.

One land replaced a M&G, one land replaced actual back stage. Objectively, the number of attractions are growing in addition to some being simply replaced.

TRON also isn't replacing anything. Neither is Ratatouille.

Our SWL is giving use two new E-Tickets in place of a tour and a stunt show. And on top of that, a brand new land. It's a matter of opinion, but, mine is that it's likely these two new rides will be vastly superior to the attractions they're replacing.

As a matter of objective reality, the number of attractions at WDW is going up. So, this whole "we're getting less and less" is objectively wrong.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
So, this whole "we're getting less and less" is objectively wrong.

You look at it from a "this is reality" (and you stated everything I'm aware of, but we can't deny a long period of stagnation; this is catchup and not solving their problems - it's going to create them but yes, they're building and I'm glad they are and they are no doubt spending a LOT of money).

I'll tell you where I and most are coming from: most look at it from a feelings perspective. The overall feeling is less for more and that's a problem even when it's not a reality. Not being snarky when I say this but do we have a dedicated thread or list anywhere for what's been lost capacity wise over the years to what we have now? What entertainment has been lost and not replaced? I'm actually interested in something like this. Because I know where you were coming from with your reply to me, but I do use logic :) I know where we are at but the overall feeling is we're getting less for more. Any magic answer why that is?
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
You look at it from a "this is reality" (and you stated everything I'm aware of, but we can't deny a long period of stagnation; this is catchup and not solving their problems - it's going to create them but yes, they're building and I'm glad they are and they are no doubt spending a LOT of money).

I'll tell you where I and most are coming from: most look at it from a feelings perspective. The overall feeling is less for more and that's a problem even when it's not a reality. Not being snarky when I say this but do we have a dedicated thread or list anywhere for what's been lost capacity wise over the years to what we have now? What entertainment has been lost and not replaced? I'm actually interested in something like this. Because I know where you were coming from with your reply to me, but I do use logic :) I know where we are at but the overall feeling is we're getting less for more. Any magic answer why that is?

I don't deny that a lot of things are no longer. Many of those things were quite good, but perhaps some remembered more fondly through nostalgia glasses rather than because of quality ( ;) ). But many of them were replaced.

One way to look at was was lost and replaced or not replaced is to go through the map of WDW and put your finger on a spot where there is currently no ride/attraction, but there used to be. What comes to my mind is:
  • SGE
  • Innoventions
  • Main Street (electric night parade)
  • Planet Watch
But even then, the presumption and inside info is that there will eventually be a replacement for them.

Other 'empty' places have their replacements currently in construction:
  • Back Lot Tour
  • Car Stunt Show
  • GMR
  • Energy
So, where else is there in all of the parks where there's something missing that doesn't have a replacement? Where are the empty spots where an attraction once existed but has no replacement?

Then there is the consideration of whether the replacement was an upgrade or a dud? Everyone agrees the current Figment falls into the category of dud. The M&G of Launch Bay is a bit of a downgrade from the animation class. While people mourn the poor placement of the new MMRR and GotG, it's generally agreed that the quality of the ride replacing them is an upgrade. Back Lot Tour to one of the SW E-Tickets may be a wash, but a SW E-Ticket certainly beats a car stunt show. The loss of Horizons is a bit complicated because of sponsorship and structural issues. I would think everyone would agree Pandora is much much better than camp Mickyminnie.

Then there are places you can point to where there is now, or soon to come, a brand new attraction not replacing anything:
  • TRON
  • Ratatouille
  • TSL
  • Poppins Ride
  • a bunch of other rumored attractions
I'm loathe to mention the Cars show coming to DHS because I have little hope it'll be good.
 

mikejs78

Well-Known Member
You look at it from a "this is reality" (and you stated everything I'm aware of, but we can't deny a long period of stagnation; this is catchup and not solving their problems - it's going to create them but yes, they're building and I'm glad they are and they are no doubt spending a LOT of money).

I think we really need to move past this. Yes, WDW stagnated for years. Yes, they underinvested, tried to do quick fixes, tried to coast. And it backfired, and now they are scrambling to catch up. Fine, no one disagrees. So what is Disney of today to do? They can't simply just reverse a decade of stagnation overnight. And to me, I'm more interested in looking at what they are doing today, which is more building than has happened since the late 90s. Is it everything I want? No. But I'm excited that things are moving now at a fairly robust pace for the first time in a long time. Sure, I can nitpick what's wrong and what they need to do (utilize WoL, Innoventions, add more to the Studios, etc...), but that doesn't change the things they are doing right. I think we could all do with a little bit of a more balanced perspective. The key will be what happens once this current era of capital improvements ends, say in 2021/2022. Will we enter another era of stagnation, or will the investment continue - maybe not at the same scale, but at least at a more consistent cadence?

I'll tell you where I and most are coming from: most look at it from a feelings perspective. The overall feeling is less for more and that's a problem even when it's not a reality. Not being snarky when I say this but do we have a dedicated thread or list anywhere for what's been lost capacity wise over the years to what we have now? What entertainment has been lost and not replaced? I'm actually interested in something like this. Because I know where you were coming from with your reply to me, but I do use logic :) I know where we are at but the overall feeling is we're getting less for more. Any magic answer why that is?

I don't think capacity comparisons tell the whole story. Utilization and guest satisfaction have to be considered as well.. For SWGE, for example, let's say the two rides (and new land) have a lower theoretical hourly capacity than the Lights Motor Action show and the Backlot Tour. Making up #'s here, let's say LMA had 5000 hourly capacity and Backlot Tour had 4000. And let's say that the new SW attractions have a 2000 pph capacity each. Now that's a net-loss of 5000 pph (again, making up #'s for illustration here).

Now, I haven't personally gone on Backlot Tour in years, it has deteriorated to a shell of it's former self IMO. As far as LMA, it was fine, but it was something that I only went to occasionally as it wasn't a must do for every trip, and I rarely saw it even half full. I wouldn't be surprised if Backlot Tour was similar. So let's say that each of those averaged only 50% utilization. So that changes things - they really only handled 4500 pph, which is only marginally more than the two SWGE E-tickets. Now let's take the fact that SWGE is a full land, with dining, a store, and some immersive elements.

Now, let's look at quality/guest satisfaction. A good development strategy for Disney is to both build new and replace/update old attractions that aren't very popular anymore. Are there really that many people sad that Stitch is gone, and will anyone really be bitter about the fact that Stitch is gone once a new attraction is in place? Probably very few (I know that Stitch has a few fans, although I can't comprehend why).. I bet most people would feel similar if they shut down Nemo and Friends and replaced it with an e-ticket, or even a better-executed C.. Tired attractions need to be replaced. Ellen's Energy Adventure needed to go. We can all argue that what replaced it wasn't the right move, but I doubt many people here would really even defend the Ellen show as it existed when it closed (Although many, myself included, would have preferred an updated show that kept the Dinosaurs and the theater-car concept). Same with GMR - it has performed very low in satisfaction scores, so something needed to change. Disney decided that it wasn't worth the necessary reinvestment. Do I wish they had kept it? Absolutely. But I can understand where they were coming from on this one, even if I don't like it...

So old capacity/new capacity is only one data point, and not even the most important one IMO when it comes to evaluating plans.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
I have moved past it, but it's still a fact (as you acknowledged, so why even bother to tell people to get over it? weird) They stagnated and are playing catch up. Why is that hard for some to acknowledge? I've more than acknowledged they're spending money now ... we just forget and say "lalalala they're building now whoo hoo!" Doesn't work like that. I do agree some are clinging to it.

Stitch as an attraction sucked. But why can't they figure out a replacement? Something could have opened by now. Why is this acceptable to some? (Not saying to you specifically)

I've never defended Ellen and actually never talk about my feelings on the ride. It wasn't my favorite by any stretch. My wish is that they used the building for a ride (and they can still build their Guardians coaster). I'm annoyed it's queue and pre-show space. Remember, we all like and dislike different things ;). Sometimes it's just frustration with how they do things, nothing wrong with that. We all view things differently.

Why replace and not update? Why gut GMR and Energy instead of updating them? That's also what some have a problem with but I know the defense of them is that they were dated. Um, because they weren't updated. It's not hard.

And I have a newflash. They're still trying quick fixes. Yes, we're finally getting a couple of actual expansions. I'm glad. But it doesn't fix everything. And no, I'm not expecting it to be fixed over night like some but I'm not encouraged by their plans and their planning (and how they're unable to decide on replacements for Stitch, they can't decide when to do the hub for Epcot, we aren't hearing much encouraging news following what we're getting but maybe some of us do jump the gun a bit but I think it's because we know things so far ahead that we're constantly asking "what next"). I also know their history and I fear a repeat of stagnation. I'd love for them to prove me wrong, believe me I would. I'm begging them to.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying though @mikejs78 (and yes guest satisfaction matters but it's annoying to see them be so indecisive) (and I meant to quote you and not everything in my post is necessarily towards you, just sort of a thinking out loud kind of thing).
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
I would disagree with both your view and the other view...TDO is spending a ton of money on "upgrades" and additions. The valid question isn't "Are they adding more?", it is "Are they adding Value/improving value?"

Its highly subjective and I would guess the overall score would be pretty close to the middle. There have been clear downgrades (JIYI, SGE), clear upgrades (TSL, Avatar, SWGE), debatable sidegrades (TT, Frozen) and questions yet to be answered (Railway, GotG).

Its not a "fact" that things are better or worse, but purely based on point of view and opinion on what type of attraction is "Disney" vs "unworthy".

This. Well said.
 

mikejs78

Well-Known Member
I have moved past it, but it's still a fact (as you acknowledged, so why even bother to tell people to get over it? weird) They stagnated and are playing catch up. Why is that hard for some to acknowledge? I've more than acknowledged they're spending money now ... we just forget and say "lalalala they're building now whoo hoo!" Doesn't work like that. I do agree some are clinging to it.

It wasn't directed towards you specifically, just in general I think it's a bit tired... The stagnation decisions were made by some people no longer there, and new leadership (say what you want about Chapek (and I have a lot to criticize when it comes to him), but he is aggressively expanding when compared to Tom Staggs.

Stitch as an attraction sucked. But why can't they figure out a replacement? Something could have opened by now. Why is this acceptable to some?

I think it's acceptable for me personally because I'd rather have them take their time and come up with a good attraction rather than rush another poor attraction in. I'm willing to give it a little time to judge. And I can see why TDO shut it down - it's very unpopular and lowered overall park satisfaction scores when it was open. Now, if there's still no new attraction in a couple of years, or if the attraction they open is junk, or if they replace it with a M&G or a dance party or something, I don't think that will be acceptable..

I've never defended Ellen and actually never talk about my feelings on the ride. It wasn't my favorite by any stretch. My wish is that they used the building for a ride (and they can still build their Guardians coaster). I'm annoyed it's queue and pre-show space. Remember, we all like and dislike different things ;). Sometimes it's just frustration with how they do things, nothing wrong with that. We all view things differently.

Sure, we can all have opinions there... :). But suffice to say, they'll never please everyone.

Why replace and not update? Why gut GMR and Energy instead of updating them? That's also what some have a problem with but I know the defense of them is that they were dated. Um, because they weren't updated. It's not hard.

But there may be other factors involved. For example, others have said that the cost of a GMR update would have been fairly large. And they may feel that they get more bang for their buck with a new ride. Again, I loved GMR - and am really sad to see it go. But I can understand the logic there, as it apparently did not have great guest satisfaction scores.

And I have a newflash. They're still trying quick fixes. Yes, we're finally getting a couple of actual expansions. I'm glad. But it doesn't fix everything. And no, I'm not expecting it to be fixed over night like some but I'm not encouraged by their plans and their planning (and how they're unable to decide on replacements for Stitch, they can't decide when to do the hub for Epcot, we aren't hearing much encouraging news following what we're getting but maybe some of us do jump the gun a bit but I think it's because we know things so far ahead that we're constantly asking "what next"). I also know their history and I fear a repeat of stagnation. I'd love for them to prove me wrong, believe me I would. I'm begging them to.

What quick fixes are they trying? We're getting a lot more than a couple of expansions, as @MisterPenguin pointed out, three new lands, new builds in MK and Epcot WS, and a bunch of rumored new builds as well.. That's a bit more than just a couple. I'm also very curious on what you consider a "quick fix" that they are doing today?
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
It wasn't directed towards you specifically, just in general I think it's a bit tired... The stagnation decisions were made by some people no longer there, and new leadership (say what you want about Chapek (and I have a lot to criticize when it comes to him), but he is aggressively expanding when compared to Tom Staggs.



I think it's acceptable for me personally because I'd rather have them take their time and come up with a good attraction rather than rush another poor attraction in. I'm willing to give it a little time to judge. And I can see why TDO shut it down - it's very unpopular and lowered overall park satisfaction scores when it was open. Now, if there's still no new attraction in a couple of years, or if the attraction they open is junk, or if they replace it with a M&G or a dance party or something, I don't think that will be acceptable..



Sure, we can all have opinions there... :). But suffice to say, they'll never please everyone.



But there may be other factors involved. For example, others have said that the cost of a GMR update would have been fairly large. And they may feel that they get more bang for their buck with a new ride. Again, I loved GMR - and am really sad to see it go. But I can understand the logic there, as it apparently did not have great guest satisfaction scores.



What quick fixes are they trying? We're getting a lot more than a couple of expansions, as @MisterPenguin pointed out, three new lands, new builds in MK and Epcot WS, and a bunch of rumored new builds as well.. That's a bit more than just a couple. I'm also very curious on what you consider a "quick fix" that they are doing today?

Frozen was a quick fix. Energy and GMR replacement are short-sighted quick fixes (and I love we're getting a Mickey Mouse attraction and I think it's fitting but, on paper, I'd have preferred it to be built elsewhere). Just my opinion. I'm sure many disagree and that's fine :) I'm of the mind all three should be new builds (and I'll give some of you who will say Guardians could be considered new, but it's using an old showbuilding as part of it, which I don't like, but I don't expect everyone to agree with me, lol).

And I do understand it's probably not logical to ask them to spend millions updating as well as new builds on top of it. That's where the stagnation comes into play. But still, yes it was under a different time. I see some good and some things I don't love but it's better. Like you said, can't please everyone. I think we all just share our opinions and tastes and some seem to take it as some sort of fact ... lol

Nemo was a quick fix. Test Track and Mission Space were quick fixes. I'd even say Soarin'. It doesn't matter the scale or money for me when I use the term quick fix. And I don't really care if one is more popular than the other. I understand to some I'm probably using the term wrong. That's OK. Not saying I dislike every quick fix but I think so many should have been new builds (and I'm logical enough to realize each situation is different and not all are made together, etc. I know that decisions are made at the time but I wish there were more long-term planning and things not left sitting or empty or dying). The parks would be in a much better place. But no, we can't live in the past and I don't mind a replacement if it makes sense and is done better than what was there. Although some of that is of course subjective. I try to not be biased when I compare what was to what is there now. I'm very open to IP if used right and done correctly.

Just my opinion, that's all :)

EDIT: Mission Breakout is a quick fix. I know people love it. But I want more from franchises I happen to love (and I have no real opinion on the ride itself I haven't been on it I just think it was short-sighted but I'm certainly no expert!). Again though, each their own.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
There’s a lot of very selective memory going on here. Food Rocks was no loss - but Kitchen Kabaret was. The character meet and greet in Animation didn’t replace an animation lesson, it replaced the Animation Tour, a key attraction of the old MGM. And TSL replaced the Backstage Tour. From this perspective, even Pandora is questionable as an addition - how much credit should WDW get for completing a land that should have been finished before the park opened in 1998?

Also, touting the poorly-designed (no shade, no fans, no shops, etc.) kiddie-land that is TSL as a significant improvement is a sign of just how low expectations of WDW have fallen - remember, this was penny-pinching management replacing a genuine, highly anticipated expansion of the Studios with a land that was universally mocked on these boards when it opened in other Disney parks.

WDWs current efforts are also dampened by the sheer duration and depth of neglect the parks endured. It has been a solid two decades of decline. To correct that, Disney needs to build a whole lot faster then it is at the moment. A tour of the parks, particularly of EPCOT, remains a tour of awful decisions. The nearly empty husks of Innovations and Life, the truly lousy Imagination and the attached theatre showing DVD shorts, the guide-less Living with the Land, and Mission: Space, quite simply the worst major attraction WDW ever built (subjective, of course). Ripping out another classic ride was not the way to fix this. And now Tomorrowland is becoming a similar landscape of failure - an abandoned Stitch across from an often-abandoned Tomorrowland Terrace serving as the gateway to a dance party. The two very similar coasters in back will add capacity but further the sense of the land as a mishmash born of hasty decisions.

There are genuine additions occurring, and that’s wonderful. Rat and SWGE seem likely to be great additions. Tron is a genuinely new build, even if I find the project odd for other reasons. But there is absolutely no reason to believe destructive management philosophies have changed. Iger is still Iger. Disney got spooked by the competition down the road and, probably, by numbers (financial or guest satisfaction or something else entirely) to which we aren’t privy. This is one of the reasons I am more hopeful about Unis new direction even when individual rides are lackluster - the new approach arrived with a new management team.
 

Bender123

Well-Known Member
This. Well said.

I live in a strange experience in that my fiancée did not grow up with WDW and her experience is that its great. She doesn't really know anything else and her experience with the attractions is vastly different than mine. She loves ToT, TT, Soarin, EE, etc...She didn't understand the appeal of PotC and HM...the classics...she enjoyed them, but they don't hold any sort of nostalgia for her.

My kids are twin 13s and a 15 year old...they know some recent history and find nostalgia in rides like TT, original Soarin and the "classics" because they grew up with them. They have no knowledge of WoM, WoL, JII, etc...There isn't a consideration there for "what had been", except in some very recent situations...Frozen and TTv2.

For me, I have been going since 1980, so its all really clear what has changed. My experience is that the vast majority of guests aren't "us" and don't really have a frame of reference to judge now vs then...only to judge now vs Universal or Six Flags.
 

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