Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
You're writing without reading...
Nobody said "match"...$800 million dollars off is somewhere below "not matching"
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.
- Thread starter MisterPenguin
- Start date
You're writing without reading...
Nobody said "match"...$800 million dollars off is somewhere below "not matching"
Jones14
Well-Known Member
I posted this on Facebook, too, but here's my thoughts on Rey's origin.
We already know how Rey fits into the Star Wars universe, and it doesn't require retconning or "this person was lying" of any kind.
Rey was one of Luke's students, and Kylo is the one who dropped her off on Jakku. Let's start at the beginning.
Luke buys Rey, for all intents and purposes, from her parents, who are happy to give away their force-sensitive daughter for some extra money for their bad habits. Kylo's statement about her parents practically throwing her away is true, but in true Jedi/Sith fashion, he neglects to inform her of WHO she was given to.
So Luke takes Ben "and a dozen other students", Rey among them (it should be noted that none of the students are shown living at any point in the movies) to start their training. Ben is the oldest by a few years, cementing the Jedi qualms about people growing too old for training, and the other students are varying ages, with Rey being the youngest.
Fast forward to Ben knocking Luke out. He kills some of them (likely the students who fight on Luke's behalf), convinces a few to join him, and stumbles upon the youngest student, who is too young to do anything but cry. Ben has a moment of pity and spares her life, but realizes that he needs to get rid of her. He and his cohorts steal a transport (from Luke, most likely: it's not like he flew them there in his X-Wing), and they dump her on the most backwater planet they can think of: Jakku.
Either Ben blocks her memory with the Force or lets the trauma of being rejected by your adopted family right after being ripped from your parents do it for him, and all Rey remembers is that she had a family who was taken away from her twice, and that she was left on Jakku to rot.
Fast forward to The Force Awakens, where Kylo finds himself in the Jakku system trying to capture BB-8. He hears about the droid's escape, but keeps his cool until he hears that they had help from a girl. Possibly the same girl he couldn't bring himself to off over a decade ago. Suddenly, Kylo takes a lot of interest in Rey.
It even justifies Luke's "Who are you?" moment with Rey in The Last Jedi. Is she one of his former students? An audience member would say, "Duh, and why don't you recognize her?" The problem is that in Luke's mind, she couldn't be, or she'd be a bad guy, as Kylo is incapable of thart sort of mercy towards anyone unwilling to join his cause. Since Rey is decidedly a good guy, Luke would quietly put that assumption away, particularly after learning that Rey's carrying around a few abandonment issues as it is.
We already know how Rey fits into the Star Wars universe, and it doesn't require retconning or "this person was lying" of any kind.
Rey was one of Luke's students, and Kylo is the one who dropped her off on Jakku. Let's start at the beginning.
Luke buys Rey, for all intents and purposes, from her parents, who are happy to give away their force-sensitive daughter for some extra money for their bad habits. Kylo's statement about her parents practically throwing her away is true, but in true Jedi/Sith fashion, he neglects to inform her of WHO she was given to.
So Luke takes Ben "and a dozen other students", Rey among them (it should be noted that none of the students are shown living at any point in the movies) to start their training. Ben is the oldest by a few years, cementing the Jedi qualms about people growing too old for training, and the other students are varying ages, with Rey being the youngest.
Fast forward to Ben knocking Luke out. He kills some of them (likely the students who fight on Luke's behalf), convinces a few to join him, and stumbles upon the youngest student, who is too young to do anything but cry. Ben has a moment of pity and spares her life, but realizes that he needs to get rid of her. He and his cohorts steal a transport (from Luke, most likely: it's not like he flew them there in his X-Wing), and they dump her on the most backwater planet they can think of: Jakku.
Either Ben blocks her memory with the Force or lets the trauma of being rejected by your adopted family right after being ripped from your parents do it for him, and all Rey remembers is that she had a family who was taken away from her twice, and that she was left on Jakku to rot.
Fast forward to The Force Awakens, where Kylo finds himself in the Jakku system trying to capture BB-8. He hears about the droid's escape, but keeps his cool until he hears that they had help from a girl. Possibly the same girl he couldn't bring himself to off over a decade ago. Suddenly, Kylo takes a lot of interest in Rey.
It even justifies Luke's "Who are you?" moment with Rey in The Last Jedi. Is she one of his former students? An audience member would say, "Duh, and why don't you recognize her?" The problem is that in Luke's mind, she couldn't be, or she'd be a bad guy, as Kylo is incapable of thart sort of mercy towards anyone unwilling to join his cause. Since Rey is decidedly a good guy, Luke would quietly put that assumption away, particularly after learning that Rey's carrying around a few abandonment issues as it is.
fractal
Well-Known Member
Hard to believe considering the record pre-sales - Anything they threw up there was guaranteed to make close to a $1billion.
fractal
Well-Known Member
Then again, who wants to see one of the greatest heroes in cinema history be treated the way Luke was?
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
There has been a raging two sided take on this for weeks.
When the dust settles...what will the truth look like? I believe I know which side of it I'll fall on...
That's the thing about not looking at things objectively and trusting your gut...you end up made the fool.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest - I really wasn't bothered by the Luke stuff. I can see why some people were, but I thought overall it was pretty good how they dealt with him. I guess the big issue folks have is the thing with him attempting to kill Kylo, but when we saw the scene from Luke's point of view and he changed his mind at the last moment, I bought it. Luke even says he had the vision and it was his knee-jerk reaction, it wasn't like he thought it out and planned it. It was an impulse. Luke saw death and destruction and had a snap impulse that he got under control. IMO, just made him human.
The only real mistake I saw with him is kind of a nitpick, and Johnson admitted he can't believe he didn't think to do it - there should have been a shot of Luke's cybernetic hand hitting the ground when he died.
I also really think the Leia stuff was well-done. Yes, even "Leia Poppins" or whatever people are calling it. It really is a beautiful scene, and it is a perfectly valid use of Jedi powers as they have been defined in previous media. I am not that familiar with The Clone Wars series, which is still canon, as I have only seen bits of it, but I'm willing to bet those types of powers are shown somewhere there as there is so much Jedi in it.
Leia sensed it coming, was able to slow her metabolism enough so that she could last that long without breath, and was able to use the force to move (it would take no more force, no pun intended, in space with the Force than it would take to move a few pebbles on the ground). It is said regular, plain old Earthlings can survive in space for about fifteen seconds, so really - the less than a minute or so she actually survived out there really isn't crazy for someone with even limited Jedi powers. And it isn't like she just walked on back to the ship just fine, either.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
I saw the film again this weekend. From the comfort of a couch. A friend has a (totally legit) screener. I really thought - okay, now that I've seen it and I know what to expect, maybe I'll start to like what is there more.
The truth is, the second viewing is where the cracks really started to show. Totally forgetting Rey's past, Snoke, etc. - man, that film just has some problems.
The Finn/Rose subplot is just terrible. It is so long, so boring, and so pointless. They were stuck with ticking off some checkboxes - give Finn something to do, bring another female character in to muck with the 'shipping tango (someone who is Asian to boot, appealing to that region of the world - two birds, one stone), bring back Phasma (criminally wasted...again), and pull in a name guest star (Del Torro, who's little occasional stutter is about his only character trait he has). It's amazing how isolated that entire sub-plot is - you literally could erase every scene of Finn in the film up until the battle of Crait and not miss it whatsoever. And it drags on soooo long.
Then you have the logical inconsistencies, often made worse by bad dialogue. (And yes, before someone says "lots of Star Wars has bad dialogue" - I reject that as an excuse - that's because George Lucas is a crap writer, they had every resource to do better.) I mean, when Poe and Finn briefly meet up for a moment near the beginning - "I'm sure you have a thousand questions!" Yeah, a thousand questions about WHAT? Like two days have passed. "Rey won the fight, we picked up your body, and here we are, still fighting the first order."
Snokes death scene was just silly - he was narrating his own death and it is just so trite. And the saber / martial arts battle that follows it really isn't that impressive. It was a big toy selling scene - notice how each of the guards has their own slightly different outfit and the varied weapons - it's because one thing action figure collectors love are "army builders" and this gave them an excuse to have a myriad of different designs to be able to sell. Not to mention, the set is just awful. Looks like a film who ran out of budget to finish it's FX. Since it literally seems to be red sheets that get taken away, it's like - what the hell was the point of covering the windows with cloth/paper/whatever? Other than "I want to be different than the Emperor's throne room" because apparently they couldn't come up with anything more clever.
There is a lot more, but my biggest disapointment was that what I initially thought was one of the cooler parts of the film makes no freaking sense whatsoever now. That was the death of Holdo. What a silly, empty death. It was watching it a second time that really drove it home - and it's the films own dang fault when you watch it again (though it would have not stood up to more critical thinking anyway). The scene where you realize what is going to happen, and Holdo and Leia say their goodbyes, fricking C-3PO is standing right behind Leia during the discussion.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST LEAVE A DROID TO DO IT???!!!!
Leia's lifelong friend dies so she can sit there and push a lever. They didn't even bother to do one of those sci-fi sacrifice tropes ("someone has to manually do X and couldn't possibly survive"). All she did is throw the thing into hyperdrive. If for whatever reason they couldn't do it remotely, why couldn't they have left a droid to do it? It also leaves a bit of a plot hole because on the other ship, they say "there is no one on that ship" when there is a life form aboard it - Holdo - and we know the technology exists to detect life forms (they scanned the pod in the very first film that 3PO and R2 were on).
I'm sure some would call this all nitpicky but seriously - it just makes...no....sense. Where in hell was Lawrence Kasdan and why didn't he work on this film? Well, I could speculate the answer to that would be that because it basically crapped on TFA so much, it was probably mutually agreed.
Now I'm really perplexed as to what film people saw that was so amazing - I wish they would point out what it was that was so dang impressive, because the more I think about it the less I can find that people could possibly think as just so brilliant.
The truth is, the second viewing is where the cracks really started to show. Totally forgetting Rey's past, Snoke, etc. - man, that film just has some problems.
The Finn/Rose subplot is just terrible. It is so long, so boring, and so pointless. They were stuck with ticking off some checkboxes - give Finn something to do, bring another female character in to muck with the 'shipping tango (someone who is Asian to boot, appealing to that region of the world - two birds, one stone), bring back Phasma (criminally wasted...again), and pull in a name guest star (Del Torro, who's little occasional stutter is about his only character trait he has). It's amazing how isolated that entire sub-plot is - you literally could erase every scene of Finn in the film up until the battle of Crait and not miss it whatsoever. And it drags on soooo long.
Then you have the logical inconsistencies, often made worse by bad dialogue. (And yes, before someone says "lots of Star Wars has bad dialogue" - I reject that as an excuse - that's because George Lucas is a crap writer, they had every resource to do better.) I mean, when Poe and Finn briefly meet up for a moment near the beginning - "I'm sure you have a thousand questions!" Yeah, a thousand questions about WHAT? Like two days have passed. "Rey won the fight, we picked up your body, and here we are, still fighting the first order."
Snokes death scene was just silly - he was narrating his own death and it is just so trite. And the saber / martial arts battle that follows it really isn't that impressive. It was a big toy selling scene - notice how each of the guards has their own slightly different outfit and the varied weapons - it's because one thing action figure collectors love are "army builders" and this gave them an excuse to have a myriad of different designs to be able to sell. Not to mention, the set is just awful. Looks like a film who ran out of budget to finish it's FX. Since it literally seems to be red sheets that get taken away, it's like - what the hell was the point of covering the windows with cloth/paper/whatever? Other than "I want to be different than the Emperor's throne room" because apparently they couldn't come up with anything more clever.
There is a lot more, but my biggest disapointment was that what I initially thought was one of the cooler parts of the film makes no freaking sense whatsoever now. That was the death of Holdo. What a silly, empty death. It was watching it a second time that really drove it home - and it's the films own dang fault when you watch it again (though it would have not stood up to more critical thinking anyway). The scene where you realize what is going to happen, and Holdo and Leia say their goodbyes, fricking C-3PO is standing right behind Leia during the discussion.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST LEAVE A DROID TO DO IT???!!!!
Leia's lifelong friend dies so she can sit there and push a lever. They didn't even bother to do one of those sci-fi sacrifice tropes ("someone has to manually do X and couldn't possibly survive"). All she did is throw the thing into hyperdrive. If for whatever reason they couldn't do it remotely, why couldn't they have left a droid to do it? It also leaves a bit of a plot hole because on the other ship, they say "there is no one on that ship" when there is a life form aboard it - Holdo - and we know the technology exists to detect life forms (they scanned the pod in the very first film that 3PO and R2 were on).
I'm sure some would call this all nitpicky but seriously - it just makes...no....sense. Where in hell was Lawrence Kasdan and why didn't he work on this film? Well, I could speculate the answer to that would be that because it basically crapped on TFA so much, it was probably mutually agreed.
Now I'm really perplexed as to what film people saw that was so amazing - I wish they would point out what it was that was so dang impressive, because the more I think about it the less I can find that people could possibly think as just so brilliant.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
My second viewing involved me having to building "mental blocks" over the things I KNEW I could never accept (cause it's silly) and a nap and searching the background for new eye candy the entire time...
Like I'm looking for this awesome, nuanced no salt tracks thing with the hologram I read about at the end.
Frankly, it's too much mental work for what a Star Wars should require...as the prequels were too little.
At the end of the day...you know what you know...and this movie will not be a fun rewatch in 5, 10, 20 years. You just know what you know. Audiences are divided - at a minimum as well. Trust the numbers.
For me...disney is 0-2 and stubbornly digging their heels in. They neither care nor undesrstand the franchise/ legacy.
Princess Leia
Well-Known Member
I saw it again Friday night and liked it better the second time around- except I still think 85% of Finn & Rose’s dialogue should have been fixed (ditto with their plot).
Worth noting- our theatre was pretty empty. My town’s theatre complex has 5 screens, and judging by the conversations I overheard in line, I think everyone else was seeing Jumanji, Pitch Perfect 3, and Insidious
Worth noting- our theatre was pretty empty. My town’s theatre complex has 5 screens, and judging by the conversations I overheard in line, I think everyone else was seeing Jumanji, Pitch Perfect 3, and Insidious
fractal
Well-Known Member
The lactating alien cow scene, the horribly unsatisfying last scene, and more, but the biggest "crapp*ng" on Luke Skywalker was his portrayal as a complete coward. He trains Ben Skywalker, fails him, sees he's gone dark, knows he's been let loose into the galaxy, and what does he do? Runs away and hides allowing Kylo to basically kill billions of people. This is the same Luke that faced Vader and the Emperor on his own? The same Luke that flew back to face a more dominant Vader to save his friends - basically a suicide mission. Doesn't work for me and never will no matter what "reasoning" is given. They couldn't even give him any redemption by allowing him to face Kylo in the end? This is why Mark Hamill was so bothered by it.
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Bairstow
Well-Known Member
Been thinking-
Wouldn't the ultimate weapon in Star Wars, even more strategically useful than the Death Star be Star Tours?
Think about it- an entire fleet of intelligent, robot-driven space ships, each one capable of going to lightspeed and therefore each capable of performing a kamikaze attack with enough destructive potential to destroy an entire fleet of capital warships. It's basically the equivalent of the US's nuclear-armed Tomohawk cruise missile arsenal, but with AI guidance. Scariest of all, it's presumably in private hands.
Wouldn't the ultimate weapon in Star Wars, even more strategically useful than the Death Star be Star Tours?
Think about it- an entire fleet of intelligent, robot-driven space ships, each one capable of going to lightspeed and therefore each capable of performing a kamikaze attack with enough destructive potential to destroy an entire fleet of capital warships. It's basically the equivalent of the US's nuclear-armed Tomohawk cruise missile arsenal, but with AI guidance. Scariest of all, it's presumably in private hands.
bclane
Well-Known Member
I think the Star Tours ships would do some damage, but are too small and fragile to take out anything like a Star Destroyer. They would likely just break apart on impact. The Raddus was obviously a very large, very well built, very heavy cruiser and I doubt anyone has a large fleet of those laying around that they want to use as hyperspace torpedoes.Been thinking-
Wouldn't the ultimate weapon in Star Wars, even more strategically useful than the Death Star be Star Tours?
Think about it- an entire fleet of intelligent, robot-driven space ships, each one capable of going to lightspeed and therefore each capable of performing a kamikaze attack with enough destructive potential to destroy an entire fleet of capital warships. It's basically the equivalent of the US's nuclear-armed Tomohawk cruise missile arsenal, but with AI guidance. Scariest of all, it's presumably in private hands.
Bairstow
Well-Known Member
Star Tours does.
No matter how well built the target ship is, every nut, bolt, and screw on the impact vessel is going to go through the target like a marble through bath suds, since they have essentially been shot out of a relativistic railgun... and keep going, too. Anything aft of the target is potentially toast, too, since at that point you've created thousands of lances of white-hot plasma that are still traveling at near-lightspeed. You see this in the movie, which proves that durability of the ramming vessel isn't important. The programming for the Star Tours "rex" droids would need to optimize the impact vector to achieve multiple kills with each strike.
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bclane
Well-Known Member
Lol maybe... but I have to imagine that the Empire/First Order has a counter measure to just any small craft hitting one of their Destroyers and taking it out. In the same way there must be impacts with random debris that occurs while traveling at light speed, that are easily handled by all ships (vs flying through a planet or a star). Imo it would take a heavy cruiser to take out a destroyer, otherwise no ship is safe. Just equip guided middles with a hyperdrive.... But who knows. Maybe there will be more on this in an upcoming comic or book to set up the ground rules.
Bairstow
Well-Known Member
These are the new rules.
The last movie even went out of its way to explain that a ship moving at lightspeed will move right through another ship's shield as if it's not there.
I really can't see them changing the rules again to explain why everyone doesn't attack every ship like this- they just wanted some cool scenes where the heroes outsmart the bad guys. No one will do the big kamikaze thing again because that was Laura Dern's character's cool thing to do and now her character is dead. For now. The writers of these movies don't really expect anyone to worry about the implications of the mechanical side of this flavor of science fantasy.
bclane
Well-Known Member
We’ll see. But prepping my “told ya so” dance for when they do flesh this out further in the future with rules that limit its use to rather extraordinary circumstances.
Hyperdrives are pretty expensive. Also, the Raddus was lucky it wasn't blown up before it hyped them.
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No Name
Well-Known Member
I saw the film a couple weeks ago. Holy crow, where is the focus?
There are so many useless characters and events and dialogue that the film doesn't have enough time or energy to focus on the story it wants to tell. Poe should be dead, Hux should be dead, Phasma is stupid and thankfully dead, Leia was carrie(d) along but is unfortunately dead. There were also a lot of pretty pointless events. The whole sort of side plot/plots with Poe and Holdo and especially Finn/Rose were too irrelevant. And Rose should be dead. The story didn't all connect back into one as nicely as it should've, or even as nicely as the Force Awakens did.
Then there were a lot of new powers introduced. That's fine if they contribute to the plot, but a lot of it felt unnecessary here. The long-distance communication and hand-touching between Kylo and Rey could've been avoided. Why was the lightning strike needed? Rey said "Mirror, mirror, in the cave, who's the biggest feminist in this rave?" I'm feminist too, but it doesn't matter, Rey's actual lineage was irrelevant in this story. Luke's new ability actually bothers me least of all. But it's hard to understand these new powers and the story at the same time.
Finally, the movie culminated with far too many scenes after Luke's death. If the rest of the movie were strong, they wouldn't feel the need to bluntly explain that this was a happy death. The Last Jedi was an enjoyable ninth of a longer story but doesn't stand great on its own. Maybe that's why its not helping them expand in Asia.
There are so many useless characters and events and dialogue that the film doesn't have enough time or energy to focus on the story it wants to tell. Poe should be dead, Hux should be dead, Phasma is stupid and thankfully dead, Leia was carrie(d) along but is unfortunately dead. There were also a lot of pretty pointless events. The whole sort of side plot/plots with Poe and Holdo and especially Finn/Rose were too irrelevant. And Rose should be dead. The story didn't all connect back into one as nicely as it should've, or even as nicely as the Force Awakens did.
Then there were a lot of new powers introduced. That's fine if they contribute to the plot, but a lot of it felt unnecessary here. The long-distance communication and hand-touching between Kylo and Rey could've been avoided. Why was the lightning strike needed? Rey said "Mirror, mirror, in the cave, who's the biggest feminist in this rave?" I'm feminist too, but it doesn't matter, Rey's actual lineage was irrelevant in this story. Luke's new ability actually bothers me least of all. But it's hard to understand these new powers and the story at the same time.
Finally, the movie culminated with far too many scenes after Luke's death. If the rest of the movie were strong, they wouldn't feel the need to bluntly explain that this was a happy death. The Last Jedi was an enjoyable ninth of a longer story but doesn't stand great on its own. Maybe that's why its not helping them expand in Asia.
I agree with this 100% except the last line. For me...Disney is 1-2 in that Rogue One was spectacular. It was fun to see exactly how the Death Star plans were stolen. K2-S0. The Battle of Scarif (including an amazing scene of being on the back of an X-Wing as it dives... which I felt in the pit of my stomach, btw). The music score. And Vader at the end. Perfect.
I would love to see KOTOR brought to the big screen directed by Gareth Edwards. Whoa.