Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
MisterPenguin said:
E7Plx0S.gif
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I feel dumber for even seeing that one. Whoever put that together is clueless... and I'm not talking about the movie scene
 
Sirwalterraleigh

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
bclane said:
I disagree that it is already canon. It has been hinted at but never confirmed. We’re still trying to figure out what is actually meant by bringing balance to the Force. Lots of theories but apparently the Jedi didn’t get it...or did they? Did they misinterpret the prophecy? Was Ani the one? Was Luke? Is Rey? Have we ever actually had balance? Lot’s of ideas/theories floating around, and as long as they keep them as theories, I’m good.
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If there's one singular thing that was covered In the original trilogy...it's that the force is a life force, it requires training to harness, and it has a good side and a bad side.

But I've only seen them 100 or so times each.

I think the balance prophecy is 100% about anakin...and to give Lucas credit...he did manage to stick to that and do two cycles of it.
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
fractal said:
Now over $200million behind where TFA was.
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I'm not sure that is predictive of much...it will likely end its North American run $575-625 ish...probably will be as weak or weaker than rogue one internationally...so is that a success or not? Depends on how disney classifies "success"...we'll never know.

Actually...rian johnsons future will tell us.
 
bclane

bclane

Well-Known Member
Sirwalterraleigh said:
If there's one singular thing that was covered In the original trilogy...it's that the force is a life force, it requires training to harness, and it has a good side and a bad side.

But I've only seen them 100 or so times each.

I think the balance prophecy is 100% about anakin...and to give Lucas credit...he did manage to stick to that and do two cycles of it.
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Yes and no. Leia uses her Force sensitivity to find Luke in ESB...and she had no training. Some people argue that Luke brought balance by turning Vader. Others argue Vader brought balance by killing Sidious. Others argue there was never balance since the Dark side rose again. The Force is best, imo, when it is left as a bit of a mystery open to debate both within the stories themselves and in the real world with the fans. My hope is that they never nail it down as that would limit it and take away some
of the fun...imo.
 
Sirwalterraleigh

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
bclane said:
Yes and no. Leia uses her Force sensitivity to find Luke in ESB...and she had no training. Some people argue that Luke brought balance by turning Vader. Others argue Vader brought balance by killing Sidious. Others argue there was never balance since the Dark side rose again. The Force is best, imo, when it is left as a bit of a mystery open to debate both within the stories themselves and in the real world with the fans. My hope is that they never nail it down as that would limit it and take away some
of the fun...imo.
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I think you interpreted that scene wrong...I think Luke uses his newfound abilities to contact leia...who had no idea she was even susceptible to it.

Listen...the Ewoks are crap...but there are two excellent scenes...3PO telling the story (that's quinissential Star Wars...which I'm still waiting for out of disney...and its legion of bit characters)...and the "Luke and leia" scene...where he says "in time, you'll learn to use it as I have..."

So unlike 7 and 8...it's all right there. And they let kindergarteners decide how she'd use it...which apparently is in a PlayStation game variety...just stupid.
 
bclane

bclane

Well-Known Member
Sirwalterraleigh said:
I think you interpreted that scene wrong...I think Luke uses his newfound abilities to contact leia...who had no idea she was even susceptible to it.

Listen...the Ewoks are crap...but there are two excellent scenes...3PO telling the story (that's quinissential Star Wars...which I'm still waiting for out of disney...and its legion of bit characters)...and the "Luke and leia" scene...where he says "in time, you'll learn to use it as I have..."

So unlike 7 and 8...it's all right there. And they let kindergarteners decide how she'd use it...which apparently is in a PlayStation game variety...just stupid.
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I disagree. Imo, Luke called out to her, but she, through her sensitivity to the Force, heard him and then used it to go find him. Anyway, this is not a new debate.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
bclane said:
I disagree that it is already canon. It has been hinted at but never confirmed. We’re still trying to figure out what is actually meant by bringing balance to the Force. Lots of theories but apparently the Jedi didn’t get it...or did they? Did they misinterpret the prophecy? Was Ani the one? Was Luke? Is Rey? Have we ever actually had balance? Lot’s of ideas/theories floating around, and as long as they keep them as theories, I’m good.
Click to expand...

The problem is, even George Lucas didn't have the answers to these questions. He may say on one day he did, and then give a completely different answer the next day. He is infamous for just throwing whatever out there and then completely contradicting himself later. Listening to the audio commentaries for the first six films is really eye-opening, especially the OT. They were not done all at once, they are spliced together from various sessions, and he literally contradicts himself in so many places it is just funny to listen to.

The truth is, despite that various authors and writers have tried in myriad official media over the past 40 years, and gone to great literary gymnastics to try to make cohesive sense of it, in the end, the Force, and the Jedi/Sith, etc. were really just a bunch of mumbo jumbo made up for dramatic effect to deliver whatever he wanted at the time.

There was no plan. The entire story breaking sessions of the OT are painstakingly detailed in the Rinzler books - what ended up on screen for ESB and ROTJ were totally different than where they started (especially ESB, where he had the least overall involvement in the entire affair). Even the prequels were not plotted out as one. It seems incredibly daft at this point that they weren't, as he admits that he basically farted around for all of TPM just playing around in the world, and the only point of that film was to get the characters to one place, messed around too much doing "wouldn't it be cool?" in AoC, and then was racing to the finish line with RotS because he had to cram the whole actual plot he set forth to tell into one film.

That is the cardinal sin of the prequels in my mind - he just didn't care about continuity with the OT. He really thought he was making "this generation's Star Wars" and even then wasn't thinking about them as a cohesive whole. To me that is the most frustrating thing about them - while parts of them are enjoyable, it's how easy it would have been to tell the same story while still maintaining logic with the first films. Example, why on earth (or Tatooine...) did he make all the Jedi wear robes like Old Ben does in the OT? It's just...nonsensical once he decided that all Jedi were outlawed and considered dead (remember, the OT never said that - just that they were very rare). So Ben has been walking around Mos Eisley and people just assume its cosplay, I guess? Just "little" stuff like that, are why it is so hard to watch them all together.

In any case, as to who the "chosen one" was, it changed. The initial six films were never intended to be about the "life story" of Anakin/Darth Vader as he later claimed. In fact, the prequels were originally to be focused on Obi-wan, not Anakin. At some point, George had a change of heart - he had kids in between the two trilogies, and this made him want to go back and retcon Darth Vader into a more sympathetic character who was led down the wrong path. When the OT was made, Luke was the chosen one. When the PT was made, he decided to change all that - I mean, he even went so far as to invent a virgin birth, LOL.

In any case - TL;DR - the stuff makes interesting discussion about interpretations, but the truth is - there is no official answer, because, it was all fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants through both the OT and the PT. There is no real answers to any of these questions.
 
Bairstow

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
AEfx said:
The problem is, even George Lucas didn't have the answers to these questions. He may say on one day he did, and then give a completely different answer the next day. He is infamous for just throwing whatever out there and then completely contradicting himself later. Listening to the audio commentaries for the first six films is really eye-opening, especially the OT. They were not done all at once, they are spliced together from various sessions, and he literally contradicts himself in so many places it is just funny to listen to.

The truth is, despite that various authors and writers have tried in myriad official media over the past 40 years, and gone to great literary gymnastics to try to make cohesive sense of it, in the end, the Force, and the Jedi/Sith, etc. were really just a bunch of mumbo jumbo made up for dramatic effect to deliver whatever he wanted at the time.

There was no plan. The entire story breaking sessions of the OT are painstakingly detailed in the Rinzler books - what ended up on screen for ESB and ROTJ were totally different than where they started (especially ESB, where he had the least overall involvement in the entire affair). Even the prequels were not plotted out as one. It seems incredibly daft at this point that they weren't, as he admits that he basically farted around for all of TPM just playing around in the world, and the only point of that film was to get the characters to one place, messed around too much doing "wouldn't it be cool?" in AoC, and then was racing to the finish line with RotS because he had to cram the whole actual plot he set forth to tell into one film.

That is the cardinal sin of the prequels in my mind - he just didn't care about continuity with the OT. He really thought he was making "this generation's Star Wars" and even then wasn't thinking about them as a cohesive whole. To me that is the most frustrating thing about them - while parts of them are enjoyable, it's how easy it would have been to tell the same story while still maintaining logic with the first films. Example, why on earth (or Tatooine...) did he make all the Jedi wear robes like Old Ben does in the OT? It's just...nonsensical once he decided that all Jedi were outlawed and considered dead (remember, the OT never said that - just that they were very rare). So Ben has been walking around Mos Eisley and people just assume its cosplay, I guess? Just "little" stuff like that, are why it is so hard to watch them all together.

In any case, as to who the "chosen one" was, it changed. The initial six films were never intended to be about the "life story" of Anakin/Darth Vader as he later claimed. In fact, the prequels were originally to be focused on Obi-wan, not Anakin. At some point, George had a change of heart - he had kids in between the two trilogies, and this made him want to go back and retcon Darth Vader into a more sympathetic character who was led down the wrong path. When the OT was made, Luke was the chosen one. When the PT was made, he decided to change all that - I mean, he even went so far as to invent a virgin birth, LOL.

In any case - TL;DR - the stuff makes interesting discussion about interpretations, but the truth is - there is no official answer, because, it was all fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants through both the OT and the PT. There is no real answers to any of these questions.
Click to expand...

All of this from an outer space remake of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.
 
bclane

bclane

Well-Known Member
AEfx said:
The problem is, even George Lucas didn't have the answers to these questions. He may say on one day he did, and then give a completely different answer the next day. He is infamous for just throwing whatever out there and then completely contradicting himself later. Listening to the audio commentaries for the first six films is really eye-opening, especially the OT. They were not done all at once, they are spliced together from various sessions, and he literally contradicts himself in so many places it is just funny to listen to.

The truth is, despite that various authors and writers have tried in myriad official media over the past 40 years, and gone to great literary gymnastics to try to make cohesive sense of it, in the end, the Force, and the Jedi/Sith, etc. were really just a bunch of mumbo jumbo made up for dramatic effect to deliver whatever he wanted at the time.

There was no plan. The entire story breaking sessions of the OT are painstakingly detailed in the Rinzler books - what ended up on screen for ESB and ROTJ were totally different than where they started (especially ESB, where he had the least overall involvement in the entire affair). Even the prequels were not plotted out as one. It seems incredibly daft at this point that they weren't, as he admits that he basically farted around for all of TPM just playing around in the world, and the only point of that film was to get the characters to one place, messed around too much doing "wouldn't it be cool?" in AoC, and then was racing to the finish line with RotS because he had to cram the whole actual plot he set forth to tell into one film.

That is the cardinal sin of the prequels in my mind - he just didn't care about continuity with the OT. He really thought he was making "this generation's Star Wars" and even then wasn't thinking about them as a cohesive whole. To me that is the most frustrating thing about them - while parts of them are enjoyable, it's how easy it would have been to tell the same story while still maintaining logic with the first films. Example, why on earth (or Tatooine...) did he make all the Jedi wear robes like Old Ben does in the OT? It's just...nonsensical once he decided that all Jedi were outlawed and considered dead (remember, the OT never said that - just that they were very rare). So Ben has been walking around Mos Eisley and people just assume its cosplay, I guess? Just "little" stuff like that, are why it is so hard to watch them all together.

In any case, as to who the "chosen one" was, it changed. The initial six films were never intended to be about the "life story" of Anakin/Darth Vader as he later claimed. In fact, the prequels were originally to be focused on Obi-wan, not Anakin. At some point, George had a change of heart - he had kids in between the two trilogies, and this made him want to go back and retcon Darth Vader into a more sympathetic character who was led down the wrong path. When the OT was made, Luke was the chosen one. When the PT was made, he decided to change all that - I mean, he even went so far as to invent a virgin birth, LOL.

In any case - TL;DR - the stuff makes interesting discussion about interpretations, but the truth is - there is no official answer, because, it was all fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants through both the OT and the PT. There is no real answers to any of these questions.
Click to expand...
While I agree with a lot of that I suspend disbelief and take canon as...canon. It might have been just made up as he shot it, but it is what it is and I freaking love it (though I admit that I choose to ignore the whole virgin birth midichlorian stuff most of the time as it just gets me upset). Anyway, yes, these details about the Force are things to debate and will hopefully never be resolved officially. I just want expanding glimpses into the great mystery as time goes on and let fans fill in their own details to complete the story. That’s what Star Wars has always been imo.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
bclane said:
While I agree with a lot of that I suspend disbelief and take canon as...canon. It might have been just made up as he shot it, but it is what it is and I freaking love it (though I admit that I choose to ignore the whole virgin birth midichlorian stuff most of the time as it just gets me upset). Anyway, yes, these details about the Force are things to debate and will hopefully never be resolved officially. I just want expanding glimpses into the great mystery as time goes on and let fans fill in their own details to complete the story. That’s what Star Wars has always been imo.
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That's part of the key. Remember, there are tons of Star Wars fans who would be happy if they never saw another lightsaber again. And others who find the whole Jedi stuff to be the central core of everything Star Wars.

That is sort of the beauty of it versus, say, Harry Potter. It is why Star Wars has been able to capture so many generations and has such limitless possibilities.
 
bclane

bclane

Well-Known Member
AEfx said:
That's part of the key. Remember, there are tons of Star Wars fans who would be happy if they never saw another lightsaber again. And others who find the whole Jedi stuff to be the central core of everything Star Wars.

That is sort of the beauty of it versus, say, Harry Potter. It is why Star Wars has been able to capture so many generations and has such limitless possibilities.
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Agreed. I personally never want the Jedi to go away for good, but i wouldn’t mind if they were pushed to the side story wise for a bit. I want to learn more about other Force sensitive or otherwise interesting beings (human or otherwise). I’m excited about exploring other parts of the galaxy and moving away from the Skywalkers, though I wouldn’t want to never see them again (of course I’ve no clue how they could return). This is why I actually am very excited about Rian’s next trilogy. He can legit go anywhere with the story and that is something i’m really looking forward to.
 
englanddg

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Sirwalterraleigh said:
I'm not sure that is predictive of much...it will likely end its North American run $575-625 ish...probably will be as weak or weaker than rogue one internationally...so is that a success or not? Depends on how disney classifies "success"...we'll never know.

Actually...rian johnsons future will tell us.
Click to expand...
Kathleen Kennedy is who needs "review"...
 
MisterPenguin

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Original Poster
Re: Leia and the Force...

Luke: The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... My sister has it.... Yes. It's you, Leia.

Leia: [astonished] I know. Somehow, I've always known. ​
 
englanddg

englanddg

One Little Spark...
MisterPenguin said:
Re: Leia and the Force...

Luke: The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... My sister has it.... Yes. It's you, Leia.

Leia: [astonished] I know. Somehow, I've always known. ​
Click to expand...
Yeah, I had no issue with Leia finding her "force powers".

I wouldn't even mind if they used it to explain why she stayed on the bridge...perhaps, in a moment of fear and shock she closes her eyes and reaches out and is able to pull something toward her (or her towards something)...

But, freezing her in space a la a scene that is a visual rip off of one of the WORST Superman movies ever made, Jesus / Angel imagery and all...was...just...cringy and bad. Unless it was her last scene (which I think would have made the movie much better, imho...kill her off then... Now, unless they break the CGI promise, what are they going to do? Kill her off in the Crawl for 9?)

 

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