Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[fractal]

I don't think it is Empire or AotC. Unlike both of those, this time professional critics (not fanboy vloggers or youtube personalities propped up on pointing out errors or flaws in films) are on the side of the film. And unlike AotC, anecdotally people who are harsh or mixed on the movie soften to it with additional viewings. Whereas with Clones, even most of its most ardent defenders saw its flaws exposed over repeat viewings.

What are you talking about? The vast majority of critics loved Empire - it's considered one of the greatest sci-fi films, if not films in Hollywood history.

 

[Gomer]

What are you talking about? The vast majority of critics loved Empire - it's considered one of the greatest sci-fi films, if not films in Hollywood history.

Now they do. Critical reception at time of release was much more mixed.

ETA:
http://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

 

[fractal]

Now they do. Critical reception at time of release was much more mixed.

Ok - agreed. But the same critics that loved TLJ would love Empire as much if not more if it came out new today. 1980 Hollywood was much different. I think you are comparing apples and oranges to a degree.

 

[Gomer]

Ok - agreed. But the same critics that loved TLJ would love Empire as much if not more if it came out new today. 1980 Hollywood was much different. I think you are comparing apples and oranges to a degree.

That was my point. I am in no way saying that TLJ is better than Empire because critics like it. I am saying that TLJ's reception has little in common with either ESB or AotC. it is it's own thing. We haven't seen many movies like this. Giant billion dollar blockbusters, liked by critics, divisive to fans, but approved by casuals. It's a strange mix and not easily comparable to past releases.

 

[BlindChow]

I mean, i understand completely the desire to discuss points that you don’t like as part of the banter, but I wonder why some people seem to want to bash something to the point that they are purposefully seeking out and focusing on negative articles and stats that reinforce their negativity.

I think it's a reaction to not liking something that has gotten an otherwise very positive reception. They start to feel like they're in crazytown, like "how can these all these people not see these very real flaws?" so they start looking around to see if there are others who feel the same way.

This same reaction can drive people who would be only marginally negative into full-on hatred, just as a sort of reflex to the overwhelming, uncritical worship they see around them.

Anyway, I think that's at least part of why people outspoken about not liking The Last Jedi seem to be extremely negative about it.

Personally, I enjoyed it overall, but agree with others who said that there were things that just took them out of the film ("yo mama" ). Also that atrocious Casino Planet sequence...man, that felt like it came from a different film.

 

[BlindChow]

They did a reboot that is clearly focused on the appearance than the heart of the characters. You know who really gets me now? Poe. What on earth is his point? The "new Han"? It doesn't work.

This might be a side effect of a plot change from the original draft of The Force Awakens. Apparently Poe was supposed to die in that initial TIE fighter crash, but Oscar Isaac convinced JJ Abrams to let his character live. So Poe actually didn't have a "point" per se.

I thought the new film suffered from having too many characters and not knowing what to do with them. The main "Slow-Speed Chase through Space" plot-line wasn't very conducive to such a large ensemble.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This might be a side effect of a plot change from the original draft of The Force Awakens. Apparently Poe was supposed to die in that initial TIE fighter crash, but Oscar Isaac convinced JJ Abrams to let his character live. So poe actually didn't have a "point" per se.

I thought the new film suffered from having too many characters and not knowing what to do with them. The main "Slow-Speed Chase through Space" plot-line wasn't very conducive to such a large ensemble.

Agree completely...

I don't want to accuse the powers that be at disney of playing demographic/gender politics...

But if you look at this "fantastic new cast"...as Harrison ford was paid to say on his way to the ATM...it checks off a lot on a list I'm so sure never existed...

 

[MisterPenguin]

divisive to fans

One scientific poll had 63% of self-identified 'hard-core fans" say they "loved it."

I only point that out to make it clear that that phrase or "the fans are divided" can be misleading. A clear majority of "fans" give the film a thumbs up. It is divisive to a small minority of fans.

And @englanddg, I bring this up not to validate my like of the movie, but to correct the record. Those who don't like the film are entitled to their opinion. But many of them are the ones who keep trying to justify their dislike by trying to point out how so many other people don't like it. They quote the highly suspect RT audience poll. They keep using the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." They post negative vlogger and written reviews (which, again, are in the small minority). They're the ones who kept posting about the drop off numbers the first weekdays after the premier as if that was proof it was rotten. And they do this to say, "Hey, I'm not the only one! Lots of people agree it's bad!!" The fact is, a small minority of the general audience and a small minority of 'fans' say that.

I post to set the record straight. And when I do, you say, "Hey! We don't need to hear what others say to validate our opinions." Which is true. But you're saying that to the wrong person. You need to say that to everyone who uses the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." You need to say that to everyone who posts a negative review as if that proves they're right. You need to say that to everyone who uses anecdotal evidence about how "all their friends" hate it. Because, they're the ones trying to justify their dislike by what others are saying and in doing so, they also paint a false narrative that the dislike is a huge groundswell. It ain't. And I'll continue to point that out as often as they try to make that false case.

 

[Gomer]

One scientific poll had 63% of self-identified 'hard-core fans" say they "loved it."

I only point that out to make it clear that that phrase or "the fans are divided" can be misleading. A clear majority of "fans" give the film a thumbs up. It is divisive to a small minority of fans.

And @englanddg, I bring this up not to validate my like of the movie, but to correct the record. Those who don't like the film are entitled to their opinion. But many of them are the ones who keep trying to justify their dislike by trying to point out how so many other people don't like it. They quote the highly suspect RT audience poll. They keep using the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." They post negative vlogger and written reviews (which, again, are in the small minority). They're the ones who kept posting about the drop off numbers the first weekdays after the premier as if that was proof it was rotten. And they do this to say, "Hey, I'm not the only one! Lots of people agree it's bad!!" The fact is, a small minority of the general audience and a small minority of 'fans' say that.

I post to set the record straight. And when I do, you say, "Hey! We don't need to hear what others say to validate our opinions." Which is true. But you're saying that to the wrong person. You need to say that to everyone who uses the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." You need to say that to everyone who posts a negative review as if that proves they're right. You need to say that to everyone who uses anecdotal evidence about how "all their friends" hate it. Because, they're the ones trying to justify their dislike by what others are saying and in doing so, they also paint a false narrative that the dislike is a huge groundswell. It ain't. And I'll continue to point that out as often as they try to make that false case.

I agree with the general sentiment, that quoting cherry picked reviews that support your opinion or posting stories about 2 or 3 people agree with you is just a form of confirmation bias to validate opinions. But I disagree that the movie isn't divisive.

The metric isn't really defined anywhere as to what merits the term divisive, but if you haven't pleased over 20 percent of your hardcore base, I'd say the film is divisive among those fans. Hard core fans will typically have a unified response one way or another more times than not. It takes a significant diversion from what you would typically give that audience to divide them as more often than not they will quickly conform to a more uniform group opinion just by the nature of their shared obsession. If you can get a third of those fans disagree with the other two thirds and hold those opinions against the inevitable push back then you have divided your base.

And I say this a hardcore fan who likes the movie. Not referring to anyone here (as this debate has for the most part been without snark and derision) I think the dividing of this fanbase is a good thing. Many dark corners of SW fandom have become pretty toxic over the last 10-15 years. Fans should never feel ownership of the property they obsess over. That is a recipe for disaster. A shake up is probably in the best interest of the health of this franchise. Even if an unfortunate side effect is some well meaning fans of the franchise fall out of love due to this movie.

But I do think fandom is divided (even if it isn't a straight 50/50 split).

 

[MisterPenguin]

The metric isn't really defined anywhere as to what merits the term divisive, but if you haven't pleased over 20 percent of your hardcore base

Yeah, but they did at least please 80% of hardcore fans. The fan numbers really aren't much different than critics or the general audience. The 20% who didn't like it contain a portion that is very very angry and vocal about their dislike.

 

[Gomer]

Yeah, but they did at least please 80% of hardcore fans. The fan numbers really aren't much different than critics or the general audience. The 20% who didn't like it contain a portion that is very very angry and vocal about their dislike.

That I most definitely agree with.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Somebody should call the Hollywood reporter and tell them to rewrite this article...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...solo-movie-can-heal-left-by-last-jedi-1070752

...scientifically, they're a 63% chance that they're 80% wrong.

So here's where we are. Everyone loves it...it's gonna pass a billion tomorrow world wide...and then we're in January...

And it's gonna end quickly...so maybe $1.3?

Hmmm...Star Wars is roaring by all accounts...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah, but they did at least please 80% of hardcore fans. The fan numbers really aren't much different than critics or the general audience. The 20% who didn't like it contain a portion that is very very angry and vocal about their dislike.

Did they please 80%? Or 63%. Or was there a 17% "pleased but didn't love it"?

I only say this to point out it's hard to quantify.

So here's where I stand: some people love it...actually a lot of people do...

So here where you admit it's still divisive...which it is...and you don't even have do listen to me...there are defector(s) crossing the picket lines

 

[AEfx]

The story picked up after the end of The Force Awakens, without having that backstory I can see where it may be confusing.

Conversely, I've seen TFA at least 15 times - which is the very reason I personally found TLJ so lacking. It wasn't that it was confusing, it was that it made no sense as a sequel to TFA. I think the folks that don't want to see this haven't watched TFA more than once or twice to remember how many things TLJ outright made null and void, reducing TFA to what it's "haters" all said it was to begin with.

That doesn't mean people don't have the right to like the film in spite of this, if they can overlook it, or just haven't seen/watched TFA deeply enough to realize it, but the very issue many of us do have with it is that it basically spits upon TFA and says "yup, it was just a stupid Mary Sue story after all, now lets totally change the story - hey, and check out Kylo's abs!"

 

[AEfx]

I think it's a reaction to not liking something that has gotten an otherwise very positive reception. They start to feel like they're in crazytown, like "how can these all these people not see these very real flaws?" so they start looking around to see if there are others who feel the same way.

Conversely, when people go to see something and at first blush think "that was an enjoyable film", don't want to hear about flaws or things they missed or glossed over, or how when played back to back with the last film how little sense they make together, so they become ardent defenders of it.

To be honest, I think I see a lot more of that than what you pointed out. Because they just dismiss people who are critical of it ("you just didn't get your fantasy storyline and are mad!"), or deflect from it (anything that mentions ESB), denying there is any criticism to be had.

I understand both sides, because I was that person after TFA. I defended the HELL out of that film. I was on that "you just wait until the next film" high horse, only to be squarely thrown off and taught my lesson. When you view the two films back to back (which I have several times now), it's like they are two alternate universes telling competing stories.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Conversely, I've seen TFA at least 15 times - which is the very reason I personally found TLJ so lacking. It wasn't that it was confusing, it was that it made no sense as a sequel to TFA. I think the folks that don't want to see this haven't watched TFA more than once or twice to remember how many things TLJ outright made null and void, reducing TFA to what it's "haters" all said it was to begin with.

That doesn't mean people don't have the right to like the film in spite of this, if they can overlook it, or just haven't seen/watched TFA deeply enough to realize it, but the very issue many of us do have with it is that it basically spits upon TFA and says "yup, it was just a stupid Mary Sue story after all, now lets totally change the story - hey, and check out Kylo's abs!"

I think the last jedi...and to be clear I'm donating $350 to its coffers tomorrow (sons birthday...thanks to Disney for breaking the Star Wars birthday party trend)...completely and utterly reverses about 75% of the whole franchise...

Luke's a coward (hamill was right before legal got involved)? The rebellion has nothing? Princess neo enters the matrix? More egregious jokes than jar jar?

Kathy Kennedy should be fired for allowing that movie to be cut...but again...just my opinion

 

[AEfx]

The rebellion has nothing?

To be honest, that was one of the criticisms of TFA that I dismissed at the time that has nagged on me more and more as time has gone on.

Essentially, it reset the existing characters back so far in many ways, it was almost like the events in the OT were inconsequential.

 

[Bairstow]

Conversely, I've seen TFA at least 15 times -

Hey! That's 15 times more than Rian Johnson watched the movie before he wrote the script and began production!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To be honest, that was one of the criticisms of TFA that I dismissed at the time that has nagged on me more and more as time has gone on.

Essentially, it reset the existing characters back so far in many ways, it was almost like the events in the OT were inconsequential.

If really bugged me then...I was hoping that the "resistance" was more like the delta force...just the ones that weren't held in reserve...I had sorta convince myself.

But here and now...just...well...

They did david and Goliath in the first story...but it was on a grander scale. Anyone that still doesn't consider the return of the Jedi to be the quintessential Star Wars battle (the space stuff...I'm not gonna talk ewoks) is lying to themselves.

Edwards didn't do too bad...I have to say..

Abrams and Johnson have missed - my opinion. They could have a new conflict won by cunning and strategy...believe it or not the Star Trek tv series figured out how to do in the 80's or 90's...

Instead...we're left with the A team...and of course those outer rim allies...which with 2 hours left will get the explanation that background cgi characters got in attack of the clones...if you're lucky.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Ok - agreed. But the same critics that loved TLJ would love Empire as much if not more if it came out new today. 1980 Hollywood was much different. I think you are comparing apples and oranges to a degree.

Agree...I'm not saying that those critics who loved the good guy, swashbuckle, Errol Flynn throwback of Star Wars didn't hate on empire...they did and it's recorded.

But within a few years I think that was put to rest. Empire is the greatest adventure sequel in movie history to this day...and maybe godfather 2 ranks above across all genres?

It's so much harder to do it again...and kirshner shot it with nuance in a different direction and better. Enough can't be said about the writers and production team on that movie In particular. It was also the one Lucas was most detached from...cough cough...

To compare this movie to empire is just wrong. It's not anywhere in the same league. Don't believe me...history will judge.