Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[englanddg]

One scientific poll had 63% of self-identified 'hard-core fans" say they "loved it."

I only point that out to make it clear that that phrase or "the fans are divided" can be misleading. A clear majority of "fans" give the film a thumbs up. It is divisive to a small minority of fans.

And @englanddg, I bring this up not to validate my like of the movie, but to correct the record. Those who don't like the film are entitled to their opinion. But many of them are the ones who keep trying to justify their dislike by trying to point out how so many other people don't like it. They quote the highly suspect RT audience poll. They keep using the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." They post negative vlogger and written reviews (which, again, are in the small minority). They're the ones who kept posting about the drop off numbers the first weekdays after the premier as if that was proof it was rotten. And they do this to say, "Hey, I'm not the only one! Lots of people agree it's bad!!" The fact is, a small minority of the general audience and a small minority of 'fans' say that.

I post to set the record straight. And when I do, you say, "Hey! We don't need to hear what others say to validate our opinions." Which is true. But you're saying that to the wrong person. You need to say that to everyone who uses the misleading phrase "the fans are divided." You need to say that to everyone who posts a negative review as if that proves they're right. You need to say that to everyone who uses anecdotal evidence about how "all their friends" hate it. Because, they're the ones trying to justify their dislike by what others are saying and in doing so, they also paint a false narrative that the dislike is a huge groundswell. It ain't. And I'll continue to point that out as often as they try to make that false case.

Nothing wrong with your points.

A lot wrong with your tone.

I'll explain.

"I didn't like this movie because I thought the comedy was inept, the plot was boring and drawn out, and the characters continue to be poorly developed"

You respond...

"Critics disagree"

They respond...

"Audiences agree, see the RT poll."

You dismiss that as "highly suspect".

Then you go on to say things like...

--the misleading phrase "the fans are divided."
--post negative vlogger reviews which are in the small minority
--paint a false narrative
--make that false case

It isn't false...to them.

It's like saying...well, Donald Trump won't win, look at the polls. I mean, look, Huffpo has Hillary at 97%. No way will Trump win.

(hrm....)

There is such a thing as being tone deaf.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Not a review, but a theory of how the new movies fill in how the dark v. light side of The Force 'work.'

 

[englanddg]

Don't believe me...history will judge.

That it will.

I think it's a reaction to not liking something that has gotten an otherwise very positive reception. They start to feel like they're in crazytown, like "how can these all these people not see these very real flaws?" so they start looking around to see if there are others who feel the same way.

This same reaction can drive people who would be only marginally negative into full-on hatred, just as a sort of reflex to the overwhelming, uncritical worship they see around them.

Anyway, I think that's at least part of why people outspoken about not liking The Last Jedi seem to be extremely negative about it.

Personally, I enjoyed it overall, but agree with others who said that there were things that just took them out of the film ("yo mama" ). Also that atrocious Casino Planet sequence...man, that felt like it came from a different film.

I think it is more that:

"I didn't like this movie. Visuals and acting were fine, but the plot and humor was off..."

"NO YOU ARE WRONG HERE ARE THE CRITIC SCORES TO PROVE YOU WRONG HERE ARE THE BOX OFFICE RESULTS IT IS AMAZING AND YOU ARE A MAN-CHILD MORON"

And...then they wonder why there is a digging in of the heels about this movie...

 

[englanddg]

Not a review, but a theory of how the new movies fill in how the dark v. light side of The Force 'work.'

Heh, I love these guys, btw. Watched this one already.

That said...I have a better one for you.

And yes...it is VERY long. Put it on as background whilst you do something else.



And, yeah, they got their stuff from there. And the Grey Jedi thing...well, see his video on that as well.

He makes, a lot of sense. Though it is all EU stuff...

 

[bclane]

Not a review, but a theory of how the new movies fill in how the dark v. light side of The Force 'work.'

Very interesting theory. I think it explains why Rey is so powerful...but i’m hoping it’s not actually true and where they are headed with Star Wars. I don’t like the thought that you always need to have a dark side. I want to believe that the good guys win eventually.

 

[englanddg]

Very interesting theory. I think it explains why Rey is so powerful...but i’m hoping it’s not actually true and where they are headed with Star Wars. I don’t like the thought that you always need to have a dark side. I want to believe that the good guys win eventually.

Well, the question of the yin/yang (or not that simple, see my link) has been floated for years.

And, in canon...



Though, in that very long video I posted, I liked his angle a tad better than the simple yin/yang...

Also, there are rumors that Ahsoka is a Grey Jedi.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I just did a screen cap for this...I'm not promoting the article or the outlet...

But I do think the headline and the summary below are 100% accurate

 

[englanddg]

I just did a screen cap for this...I'm not promoting the article or the outlet...

But I do think the headline and the summary below are 100% accurate

Ethnic and sexual diversity are grossly overplayed.

They cannot replace a good story.

The reality is...most people don't care. Tell a good story, and the ethnicity or gender of the characters involved, won't matter.

It reminds me of the "Ghostbusters 2016 is an amazing movie because women" argume.

This philosophy needs to die. As does the concept that there is a large percentage of people out there who will NOT accept women or minority hero roles.

Yes, I know anecdotal, but I'm in the middle of Battlefront II. It is a story told from a woman's perspective. She is a warrior, later a mother. And, I love the story. It is fantastic, and very interesting to me.

Point is...the way to tell these stories is by telling good STORIES...not by using quota/tokens to make it great.

"Oh, it was so wonderful to see strong women!"

(these same critics seem to forget that back in the sexist 70s and 80s, pretty much no one had an issue with Princess Leia snapping orders at people, being intelligent and sassy, and giving rousing speeches...)

 

[MisterPenguin]

I just did a screen cap for this...I'm not promoting the article or the outlet...

But I do think the headline and the summary below are 100% accurate

 

[englanddg]

Yeah....ok. So, you hate when people post "vloggers", but you post a meme.

Ok, let's go with that.

Two puppets, one who is Jedi (not liking technology, a theme of the movies as a whole, and what his character represents) beating on a robot puppet.

vs...



I remember when the Jedi hated "yo momma"...and the First Order was all about the destruction of "yo momma"...

 

[bclane]

Well, the question of the yin/yang (or not that simple, see my link) has been floated for years.

And, in canon...



Though, in that very long video I posted, I liked his angle a tad better than the simple yin/yang...

Also, there are rumors that Ahsoka is a Grey Jedi.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Yes, but it has always been, as far as I know, unconfirmed that you must have the Dark side to have the Light side and vice versa. I would rather it not be the direction they take it. To clarify, i’m Ok with the Light rising up to meet the Dark but not the other way around. That just goes to a place I don’t want to go if that makes sense.

 

[englanddg]

Yes, but it has always been, as far as I know, unconfirmed that you must have the Dark side to have the Light side and vice versa. I would rather it not be the direction they take it. To clarify, i’m Ok with the Light rising up to meet the Dark but not the other way around. That just goes to a place I don’t want to go if that makes sense.

The movies always told the story from the perspective of the Jedi. The light vs the dark. I'm ok with a story that comes from the other side...if you will...

I'd like to say these movies are taking risks to tell the story from opposite sides, but they are not... Ren is still whiny and immature, and now the light (Rey) is still amazingly perfect.

It's all...rather shallow.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Yeah....ok. So, you hate when people post "vloggers", but you post a meme.

In response to a screencap. Which I thought you were against since you want people to not look to outside sources for validation of their opinion.

Funny how you only call out one side.

 

[englanddg]

In response to a screencap. Which I thought you were against since you want people to not look to outside sources for validation of their opinion.

Funny how you only call out one side.

Ah, fair point.

I didn't take into account the context. Sorry.

 

[bclane]

The movies always told the story from the perspective of the Jedi. The light vs the dark. I'm ok with a story that comes from the other side...if you will...

I'd like to say these movies are taking risks to tell the story from opposite sides, but they are not... Ren is still whiny and immature, and now the light (Rey) is still amazingly perfect.

It's all...rather shallow.

I agree that it’s always been about light vs. dark and that’s part of the reason I raised my kids on it (besides the fact that it is pure awesome sauce). To me, Star Wars is a useful tool for teaching good vs. evil. If they flip the script on me, it doesn’t work as the religious allegory that I’ve been using it as and that’s just gonna me off. Lol! It would make a great movie no doubt but I just don’t want to go there. They can have the Jedi and the Sith debate prophecies and philosophies till the cows come home and I couldn’t care less, but if they ever make it definite canon that you can’t have good without evil, then it is going to lose some of its luster for me. That probably sounds nutty, but I get enough of the bad guys winning in the real world. I need the good guys to at least win in Star Wars.

 

[englanddg]

I agree that it’s always been about light vs. dark and that’s part of the reason I raised my kids on it (besides the fact that it is pure awesome sauce). To me, Star Wars is a useful tool for teaching good vs. evil. If they flip the script on me, it doesn’t work as the religious allegory that I’ve been using it as and that’s just gonna **** me off. Lol! It would make a great movie no doubt but I just don’t want to go there. They can have the Jedi and the Sith debate prophecies and philosophies till the cows come home and I couldn’t care less, but if they ever make it definite canon that you can’t have good without evil, then it is going to lose some of its luster for me. That probably sounds nutty, but I get enough of the bad guys winning in the real world. I need the good guys to at least win in Star Wars.

It is already canon... And, as far as your concerns, without evil, then there is no measure for good. So, good also requires evil.

Blah blah blah, philosophical.

I think your real issue is that you want good to triumph in the end, or at least (as they did in Empire) take the "high road"...Luke being offered an end to the conflict, yet committing suicide (he didn't know where he was going to land) instead...trusting in the faith of the good...

The argument is...the force isn't good, or evil, it is modern god. God is both good and evil, from the perspective of man. Commonly stated as "old testament god vs new testament god"...

Now, I dunno how much all this holds...but...where I think they are going is telling more and more complex "stories" in the movies, which really account for nothing, but leave a lot of unresolved endpoints, which they can fill in later with comic books, novels and video games. And THAT is why I think TLJ is so...disjointed.

But, that is just me.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Ah, fair point.

I didn't take into account the context. Sorry.

**hugs**

Happy New Year!

 

[MisterPenguin]

To inject anthropological and ethical philosophy...

Often, the Dark Side is paired with the 'negative emotions': Anger, fear. And implicitly, sadness (through grief and loss).

People often moralize those 'negative emotions' as being 'bad' or 'evil'. Actually, they're neither. They just are.

• Anger is a response to a threat -- go attack it and get rid of it.
  
• Fear is also a response to a threat -- run from it.
  
• Sadness is when we don't get what we want (object of love is absent, or, threat can't be attacked or fled from).

Morality comes from what we do with these emotions. Emotions inform and guide, but, they're not supposed to control us. But when we do let them control us, we do bad things: We hurt people, we flee from responsibility, we stop caring. Even with the positive emotion of love, it can get out of control and we become possessive and controlling.

The Dark Side of the force is when we give in to the emotions and let them control us. It is using the power of the Force to give into runaway emotions.

The Jedi tried to avoid that by asceticism. Detachment from relationships and a stoicism which suppressed feelings.

A balance would be allowing oneself to feel all the emotions, including the negative ones, but not letting them control you.

• Anger can be beneficial when it motivates one to fight injustice.
  
• Fear can be beneficial in protecting yourself and loved ones (I'm looking at you, Poe!).
  
• Sadness can be beneficial in having compassion on those suffering.

And so, one can let go of the idea that there is a metaphysically real morally polar Force that is Goodness Power v. Evilness Power. And instead, there is just Force Power that can be used for good or evil. And if someone is abusing that Power for selfishness and destroying the Life that gives rise to the Force, then the Force will align itself with those that can stop that abuse.

 

[bclane]

It is already canon... And, as far as your concerns, without evil, then there is no measure for good. So, good also requires evil.

Blah blah blah, philosophical.

I think your real issue is that you want good to triumph in the end, or at least (as they did in Empire) take the "high road"...Luke being offered an end to the conflict, yet committing suicide (he didn't know where he was going to land) instead...trusting in the faith of the good...

The argument is...the force isn't good, or evil, it is modern god. God is both good and evil, from the perspective of man. Commonly stated as "old testament god vs new testament god"...

Now, I dunno how much all this holds...but...where I think they are going is telling more and more complex "stories" in the movies, which really account for nothing, but leave a lot of unresolved endpoints, which they can fill in later with comic books, novels and video games. And THAT is why I think TLJ is so...disjointed.

But, that is just me.

I disagree that it is already canon. It has been hinted at but never confirmed. We’re still trying to figure out what is actually meant by bringing balance to the Force. Lots of theories but apparently the Jedi didn’t get it...or did they? Did they misinterpret the prophecy? Was Ani the one? Was Luke? Is Rey? Have we ever actually had balance? Lot’s of ideas/theories floating around, and as long as they keep them as theories, I’m good.

 

[fractal]

Now over $200million behind where TFA was.