Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[englanddg]

That's the truly beautiful part of The Last Jedi. It's completely, perfectly disposable.
Whatever happens in Episode 9, you can be assured that anyone who has seen The Force Awakens will be able to go directly from watching that movie to 9 and not miss a beat.

I edited the post and added her review...but, she does a good job of breaking it down imho.

 

[englanddg]

That was sortof my point, though.

So...work with me here...

Of the "Origicons", there were always (and still are) those fans who don't care, just give fan service. But, most of the fans, were not like that, of that era.

But...the "Prequobots"...they...had a different first experience.

Their Dads and Moms...LOVED Star Wars. They went and saw the original movies, and told them stories about seeing the movies when they took them to the re-release, and got excited when Yoda fought in the prequels, etc...

And, we Origicons did all that, admit it.

And, our kids...watched us. And, they pick up on these things, as children. And, it makes them think THEY should be excited, too. Oh, look, it's YODA, because YODA, like WOW, makes the movie amazing, because YODA and he was a Puppet, right Daddy? Isn't that what you said about the other films, too much CGI?

The original trilogy won over audiences because of the story it told. The Prequels, didn't. It was nostalgia service and visuals. Only later, through things like Clone Wars and the like, were they able to expand the universe enough where the Prequels were at least ok.

And so, the discussion can't be about PLOT or STORYTELLING or CHARACTER...because, that isn't what these people think Star Wars is. And, it isn't their fault. They grew up with it differently...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To a very large portion of the fandom today, I'd posit, those are the only versions they've ever seen.



I think some of this is (though I hate the term "fanboy")...more, those who are younger Boomers, older Gen-X, and some Millenials...lets call them "Origicons", and those who only grew up with Special Edition VHS/DVD and the Prequels being their theater experience, lets call them "Premobots".

And, I have a running theory here...which of course is not universal, and there is crossover between both...but...

"Origicons" were already adults, or very near adults, when the prequels came out. They are the ones who led the prequel wrath. I...count myself amongst them. I remember going to see the Special Edition re-releases, and noting each and every little thing (well, not every little thing, but...years of watching the originals on Beta as a kid had burned the scenes into my head).

"Preemobots", for many of them, they either saw the Special Editions or the Prequels as their first experience with Star Wars. And, they didn't have a dozen or so VHS and the rare trip to Blockbuster to pick from, they had dozens upon dozens if not hundreds of VHS/DVDs and later streaming to pick from, lots of stuff out there...not just watching Star Wars every weekend on VHS because...there was that or "Top Gun" or "Godfather" (which Daddy wouldn't let you watch).

Now, there are a few things at play here.

1) The EU. Those of us who were born pre-1980 were coming of age around the time the Zahn novels came out, and the novels, and as we became young adults, the video games. Preemobots, the crossover ones who were coming of age when the SE re-releases were done, had the expanded EU...the Jedi Academy books, etc...etc...etc...etc... They...sortof sit in the middle, as they were early to mid teens when the prequels came out, and the experience between age 9 when you first see it, and age 16...well, can be different. Then there were those born later, which is a HUGE portion of the fan community. Too young for the Zahn trilogy, WAY too young to watch the old VHS tapes (because their parents probably replaced them with SE DVDs), and their first theater experience was the prequels. We are all adults now...but, we all view the series completely different.

2) The late 80s. Yeah, there wasn't much Star Wars. It was a "nerd" thing...like Star Trek. It had its prime, we still played with our toys, there were occasionally new toys, etc...but nothing like what would come later when it was mass commercialized. It basically lived in the realm of books and books on tape...and to a slightly lesser degree the comics and role playing games.

Which brings me to point #3...

2) Cartoon Network / Disney "retcon", but still Canon, shows, like Clone Wars and Rebels, but more Clone Wars, impacted the Premobots. Less so the Origicons. And, in a good way. These older movies, that Origicons griped about and tore apart with documentaries and "nostalgia review videos"...the Premobots learned to reflect upon them in a different way...

So, where am I going with this (before I turn it into a thesis)?

One thing I've noticed watching youtube reviews (because...I watch a lot of youtube in the background as I work...bad habit, but I do...right now, even, I'm listening to Kevin Smith's review)...

The positive reviews come in three flavours:

1) The movie is making a lot of money and you "fanboys" are killjoys for not appreciating it
2) I just went to have a good time, and I had a good time, and yeah, there are problems, but I'm remaining optomistic
3) (and this is the one I note a lot)...How can you not love it because NEW!?!?

And, the latter is the one that I want to sit on, for a minute, because I watched the review by "That Guy with a Camera" (who does Disney Park videos as well, that are pretty amusing), and they were all loving Yoda...why? Because...YODA! It was YODA!

And, it reminds me of what they aimed for the prequels for the "Origicons"...and, we reacted, when we saw Yoda. It was more that...we didn't feel any threat about who Yoda was fighting.

And, therein, I think lay the disconnect.

Those who know the story, because they consume the new lore and anticipate more of it, will love it.

Those who do not...will not. Origicons already read their "novels upon novels"...and have little interest in reading all that or watching 6 seasons of a cartoon series to keep up with all the little references in the movie...

And those who grew up AFTER the insane commercialization of Star Wars post the SE releases...don't have the dwelling over the characters...because, they never had a "dearth" of content.

You had me rolling...I have to say...

Especially with the "top gun" or "godfather" on VHS...

I'll admit I rotated top gun and return of the Jedi with regularity...probably the coolest two movies to a boy in the 80s lb for lb...

But the bold part is what I have to highlight...cause you nailed it. That's where the "love" for the disney movies is coming from...and it's too low bar for origicons as you label them...

It's also the disconnect on R1...which frankly went beyond those simple aims enough to draw the older fanbase in more in my experience.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

^Classic Star Wars has had a fair amount of a certain type of humor (i.e, Han in the detention block) which is why the movies are so beloved. They're not overly serious or dreary.

But that opening bit ("Holding for General Hux (atrocious casting, btw)...") felt very Marvel or even SNL to me. It shook me out of the Star Wars happy place I had been in since Rogue One's release a year ago, which I never got back for the film's duration. On top of that odd skit, the opening battle sequence (lone X-wing easily blowing up all the massive gun turrets, unmolested) gave me a Prequel vibe. Lockjaw Leia weighing in didn't help, and so, 5 minutes in, I knew it was going to be a bumpy road from there out.

While I'm not a big fan of the prequel or sequel trilogies, I am very interested in "Solo"... I apparently only care about Star Wars films that take place around that Originals sweet spot.

1. Awesome review of the first sequence...YES on everything that was wrong
2. Even more awesome name

 

[bclane]

You’re missing the point.

Nope, but clearly you missed mine.

 

[englanddg]

You had me rolling...I have to say...

Especially with the "top gun" or "godfather" on VHS...

I'll admit I rotated top gun and return of the Jedi with regularity...probably the coolest two movies to a boy in the 80s lb for lb...

But the bold part is what I have to highlight...cause you nailed it. That's where the "love" for the disney movies is coming from...and it's too low bar for origicons as you label them...

It's also the disconnect on R1...which frankly went beyond those simple aims enough to draw the older fanbase in more in my experience.

I'll give you an example of "Premobots vs Origicons"....

On another site (youtube) someone who does Star Wars videos who is a Premobot (the sort of channel where they basically just read wookiepedia articles to graphics, but they are still interesting to listen to in the background) said...

He thinks Anakin should be brought back in the next movie as a clone.

I said...wouldn't that be akin to the Zahn trilogy and the clone Dark Jedi?

He...had no idea what I was talking about, and much of his audience didn't either.

As the conversation progressed, they didn't know much about Thrawn, either, even though they "worshipped" him (this particular youtuber presents his videos with a Thrawn avatar even)...

And, as we moved on, it became obvious to me that most of them (if not all)...had never read the Thrawn trilogy, much less all the associated EU novels of the late 80s and early 90s...

There was a universe "disconnect".

And, it got me thinking...this makes sense, because...about the time (even if they are rather "old" millennials, being born in the mid-80s), they would have immediately been launched into the new "cycle" of films, with the remade originals, all the way through the prequel releases...

I'm curious to see where Disney goes with this, but I am not excited.

And, like in theme parks, how "purists" in some threads used to "blame Meg", the more and more I think about it, I "blame Kathleen"...not Jar Jar Abrams or Kylo Rian.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'll give you an example of "Premobots vs Origicons"....

On another site (youtube) someone who does Star Wars videos who is a Premobot (the sort of channel where they basically just read wookiepedia articles to graphics, but they are still interesting to listen to in the background) said...

He thinks Anakin should be brought back in the next movie as a clone.

I said...wouldn't that be akin to the Zahn trilogy and the clone Dark Jedi?

He...had no idea what I was talking about, and much of his audience didn't either.

As the conversation progressed, they didn't know much about Thrawn, either, even though they "worshipped" him (this particular youtuber presents his videos with a Thrawn avatar even)...

And, as we moved on, it became obvious to me that most of them (if not all)...had never read the Thrawn trilogy, much less all the associated EU novels of the late 80s and early 90s...

There was a universe "disconnect".

And, it got me thinking...this makes sense, because...about the time (even if they are rather "old" millennials, being born in the mid-80s), they would have immediately been launched into the new "cycle" of films, with the remade originals, all the way through the prequel releases...

I'm curious to see where Disney goes with this, but I am not excited.

And, like in theme parks, how "purists" in some threads used to "blame Meg", the more and more I think about it, I "blame Kathleen"...not Jar Jar Abrams or Kylo Rian.

My daggers have been pointed towards Kennedy for awhile now...at best she's "misguided"...and worst she's "awful"...

As my BIL just said (he loves abrams and his reboot): "how bad was this movie before Disney ordered them to edit it and do better?"

That's all Kennedy...who allowed Johnson to write a movie where Luke basically sucks, Leia is allowed to continue against the obvious eye test, and we have some telepathic hormone teen drama unfolding...

What the hell?

But as to the idea to bring anakin back...you mean the 9 year old that was ridiculed so badly that he became a meth dealer? Or the worst actor this side of Toronto?

...just curious?

 

[englanddg]

My daggers have been pointed towards Kennedy for awhile now...at best she's "misguided"...and worst she's "awful"...

As my BIL just said (he loves abrams and his reboot): "how bad was this movie before Disney ordered them to edit it and do better?"

That's all Kennedy...who allowed Johnson to write a movie where Luke basically sucks, Leia is allowed to continue against the obvious eye test, and we have some telepathic hormone teen drama unfolding...

What the hell?

But as to the idea to bring anakin back...you mean the 9 year old that was ridiculed so badly that he became a meth dealer? Or the worst actor this side of Toronto?

...just curious?

Worst actor.

He loves you, just remember that...because, he said it flatly and then did a force trick. Because...that's how courting works, dontcha know? It's like Bennie and Joon.

 

[MisterPenguin]

You've been waiting that long, and that poopshow was good enough?

My gosh how low the bar we set?

I think Leia lost her "force abilities" for me in around 2000...when she ceased to resemble the character at all...YouTube is such a useful tool

Hey. I saw TLJ and really liked it. Apparently the overwhelming majority of critics and audience did, too. And it's on track to do really well at the Box Office.

Great movie!

 

[bclane]

Hey. I saw TLJ and really liked it. Apparently the overwhelming majority of critics and audience did, too. And it's on track to do really well at the Box Office.

Great movie!

After seeing the movie again last night, we ran into a buddy of mine from church who was also in attendance with some of his family/friends. His group enjoyed it as much as we did and we were able to have a great conversation about some of the things we loved and even a few of the things that we didn’t love about the movie. Even though we all brought up (and laughed about) points that we would have changed or cut, it was a very positive conversation and a lot of fun geeking out over the pure awesomeness of TLJ and Star Wars in general.

Anyway, I have never understood why some people seem to enjoy focusing on negativity so much. It always tends to chip away at my own happiness when I focus on the negatives of anything for too long, so I make it a point to focus on the positives instead as much as possible. I mean, i understand completely the desire to discuss points that you don’t like as part of the banter, but I wonder why some people seem to want to bash something to the point that they are purposefully seeking out and focusing on negative articles and stats that reinforce their negativity. I wonder if people doing that might even be robbing from their own ability to enjoy future events set in the Star Wars universe. Why would anyone want to do that? To me that just seems counter productive to ones own joy...but to each their own I guess. To me, even though not a perfect movie (has there ever been A perfect movie?), it was amazing imo and I can’t wait to see it again.

 

[Gomer]

That was sortof my point, though.

So...work with me here...

Of the "Origicons", there were always (and still are) those fans who don't care, just give fan service. But, most of the fans, were not like that, of that era.

But...the "Prequobots"...they...had a different first experience.

Their Dads and Moms...LOVED Star Wars. They went and saw the original movies, and told them stories about seeing the movies when they took them to the re-release, and got excited when Yoda fought in the prequels, etc...

And, we Origicons did all that, admit it.

And, our kids...watched us. And, they pick up on these things, as children. And, it makes them think THEY should be excited, too. Oh, look, it's YODA, because YODA, like WOW, makes the movie amazing, because YODA and he was a Puppet, right Daddy? Isn't that what you said about the other films, too much CGI?

The original trilogy won over audiences because of the story it told. The Prequels, didn't. It was nostalgia service and visuals. Only later, through things like Clone Wars and the like, were they able to expand the universe enough where the Prequels were at least ok.

And so, the discussion can't be about PLOT or STORYTELLING or CHARACTER...because, that isn't what these people think Star Wars is. And, it isn't their fault. They grew up with it differently...

My anecdotal experience differs from your anecdotal experience in that most of the "hate" I have seen comes from prequel fans upset that Luke isn't perfect. "He's a Jedi, how could he show weakness or fail in his mission to restore the Jedi. He's Luke Skywalker!" Meanwhile, the "VHS watchers" like me who I have talked to or read, are more willing to accept the newness brought to the franchise. Not so dogmatic in our view of what should or shouldn't have happened in this story. Its also good to remember that the vast majority of those critics who reviewed the movie positively are also of that VHS watching era.

But to me, either method of reviewing through negative or positive tinged nostalgia goggles is an unfair way to look at a movie. In the end, it should be looked at on its own merits. Not held up to a cartoon series, a 30 year old book, or some now grown child's old visions of what would happen after Return of the Jedi. Removing expectations and viewing for film quality alone (which is how a critic should be viewing a film) is the only true fair assessment. You may like or not like the choices it makes, but it is not a movie's job to meet expectations that exist only in a fan's head.

And because of that, it makes sense how the reactions have panned out. People who set significant expectations going in have strong, unwavering, opinions tinged in one way or the other by those expectations. But critics, general audiences, casual fans, and people who put aside those expectations they might have had, tend to be positive with some small reservations as proven out by most metrics of audience reception and box office. That to me shows that, when fans of both the reflexive negative and positive persuasion are pulled out, most like the tone, plot, and characterizations of the new film, but for decent sized minority it didn't land well. But that makes sense for a movie that makes some bold decisions with tone and character decisions for a blockbuster.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Hey. I saw TLJ and really liked it. Apparently the overwhelming majority of critics and audience did, too. And it's on track to do really well at the Box Office.

Great movie!

...it's something to watch...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

After seeing the movie again last night, we ran into a buddy of mine from church who was also in attendance with some of his family/friends. His group enjoyed it as much as we did and we were able to have a great conversation about some of the things we loved and even a few of the things that we didn’t love about the movie. Even though we all brought up (and laughed about) points that we would have changed or cut, it was a very positive conversation and a lot of fun geeking out over the pure awesomeness of TLJ and Star Wars in general.

Anyway, I have never understood why some people seem to enjoy focusing on negativity so much. It always tends to chip away at my own happiness when I focus on the negatives of anything for too long, so I make it a point to focus on the positives instead as much as possible. I mean, i understand completely the desire to discuss points that you don’t like as part of the banter, but I wonder why some people seem to want to bash something to the point that they are purposefully seeking out and focusing on negative articles and stats that reinforce their negativity. I wonder if people doing that might even be robbing from their own ability to enjoy future events set in the Star Wars universe. Why would anyone want to do that? To me that just seems counter productive to ones own joy...but to each their own I guess. To me, even though not a perfect movie (has there ever been A perfect movie?), it was amazing imo and I can’t wait to see it again.

We will likely never agree on the main points here...but speaking for me I can 100% tell you that it's a mistake to think that I'm trying to be intentionally negative about Star Wars. Nothing can be further from the truth.

But the thing that can't be glossed for me is that these suits struggle to make a story that has everything going for it. How is it that hard? I think a more plausible sequel could have been dreamed up in an hour or two by most fans. I mean...somebody takes over the empire and begins to outsmart the powers that be...an ambush or two...and some heroes - new and old - save the day. And you flesh out the subplots. Yes...that is kinda what george tried to do...but it was STUPID. Trade embargoes and secret armies unexplained in an effort to sell robot toys...

They did a reboot that is clearly focused on the appearance than the heart of the characters. You know who really gets me now? Poe. What on earth is his point? The "new Han"? It doesn't work.

Anyway..not to rehash. But if I didn't know better (and I don't)...I'd say that they have been intentionally making these overtly popcorn for 2 decades? Why? In a more complicated world movies have to be less cerebral?

Larry Kasdan - who did raiders, much of empire and the big chill - "wrote" a rehash? On purpose? Nope...that was from one of Disney's strategic focus meetings...no doubt. Those aren't always right.

What a tragic mistake...if true. Just so lost...just my opinion.

Now if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna milk an episode 1 looking thing for breakfast, Float back to my ship in space, and then dissolve into the ether...

We'll just have to discuss other less contentious things...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

My anecdotal experience differs from your anecdotal experience in that most of the "hate" I have seen comes from prequel fans upset that Luke isn't perfect. "He's a Jedi, how could he show weakness or fail in his mission to restore the Jedi. He's Luke Skywalker!" Meanwhile, the "VHS watchers" like me who I have talked to or read, are more willing to accept the newness brought to the franchise. Not so dogmatic in our view of what should or shouldn't have happened in this story. Its also good to remember that the vast majority of those critics who reviewed the movie positively are also of that VHS watching era.

But to me, either method of reviewing through negative or positive tinged nostalgia goggles is an unfair way to look at a movie. In the end, it should be looked at on its own merits. Not held up to a cartoon series, a 30 year old book, or some now grown child's old visions of what would happen after Return of the Jedi. Removing expectations and viewing for film quality alone (which is how a critic should be viewing a film) is the only true fair assessment. You may like or not like the choices it makes, but it is not a movie's job to meet expectations that exist only in a fan's head.

And because of that, it makes sense how the reactions have panned out. People who set significant expectations going in have strong, unwavering, opinions tinged in one way or the other by those expectations. But critics, general audiences, casual fans, and people who put aside those expectations they might have had, tend to be positive with some small reservations as proven out by most metrics of audience reception and box office. That to me shows that, when fans of both the reflexive negative and positive persuasion are pulled out, most like the tone, plot, and characterizations of the new film, but for decent sized minority it didn't land well. But that makes sense for a movie that makes some bold decisions with tone and character decisions for a blockbuster.

I think it's abundantly clear on this thread that those that are critical of this are NOT prequel fans...

It's really just the slow burn of watching Lucas dismantle his own legacy from a credibility standpoint and then watch disney not really have any idea of where to go with this...we just need a bunch of undeveloped characters that fit "slots"...and Carrie fisher...gotta have her for her wit and deadpan humor...

Ithis is where i say you're seeing entirely what you want to see for your own piece of mind.

Prequel fans??? Nobody I've talked that didn't like this are prequel fans...maybe one 12 year old...exception.

 

[bclane]

We will likely never agree on the main points here...but speaking for me I can 100% tell you that it's a mistake that I'm trying to be intentionally negative about Star Wars. Nothing can be further from the truth.

But the thing that can't be glossed for me is that these suits struggle to make a story that has everything going for it. How is it that hard. I think a more plausible sequel could have been dreamed up in an hour or two by most fans. I mean...somebody takes over the empire and begins to outsmart the powers that be...an ambush or two...and some heroes - new and old - save the day. And you flesh out the subplots. Yes...that is kinda what george tried to do...but it was STUPID. Trade embargoes and secret armies unexplained in an effort to sell robot toys...

They did a reboot that is clearly focused on the appearance than the heart of the characters. You know who really gets me now? Poe. What on earth is his point? The "new Han"? It doesn't work.

Anyway..not to rehash. But if I didn't know better (and I don't)...I'd say that they have been intentionally making these overtly popcorn for 2 decades? Why? In a more complicated world movies have to be less cerebral?

Larry Kasdan - who did raiders, much of empire and the big chill - "wrote" a rehash? On purpose? Nope...that was from one of Disney's strategic focus meetings...no doubt. Those aren't always right.

What a tragic mistake...if true. Just so lost...just my opinion.

Now if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna milk an episode 1 looking thing for breakfast, Float back to my ship in space, and then dissolve into the ether...

We'll just have to discuss other less contentious things...

Cool, enjoy whatever color milk you’ll be drinking.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Cool, enjoy whatever color milk you’ll be drinking.

Chocolate...

...if it ain't broke...

 

[Gomer]

I think it's abundantly clear on this thread that those that are critical of this are NOT prequel fans...

It's really just the slow burn of watching Lucas dismantle his own legacy from a credibility standpoint and then watch disney not really have any idea of where to go with this...we just need a bunch of undeveloped characters that fit "slots"...and Carrie fisher...gotta have her for her wit and deadpan humor...

Ithis is where i say you're seeing entirely what you want to see for your own piece of mind.

Prequel fans??? Nobody I've talked that didn't like this are prequel fans...maybe one 12 year old...exception.

Yes, the three or four people in this thread who have been arguing against the movie are clearly not prequel fans. But this site's conversation is not the extent of my experience talking about this movie. Conversations with real people I know, on Star Wars fan sites, on social media have come off very differently than here.

Perhaps I am not the one seeing what I want to see.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes, the three or four people in this thread who have been arguing against the movie are clearly not prequel fans. But this site's conversation is not the extent of my experience talking about this movie. Conversations with real people I know, on Star Wars fan sites, on social media have come off very differently than here.

Perhaps I am not the one seeing what I want to see.

Perhaps...but i have gotten near universal hate for this thing...and I don't really talk to anyone by Gen Xers...not prequels fans

And there are pretty clear examples of "convincing oneself" going on in defense of this film...very phantom menace esque...

"The visuals are stunning"...yeah, so was the delta force in 1986. (And make no mistake...I loved me some delta force...but I had no clue about narrative or innuendo then)

 

[Gomer]

Perhaps...but i have gotten near universal hate for this thing...and I don't really talk to anyone by Gen Xers...not prequels fans

And there are pretty clear examples of "convincing oneself" going on in defense of this film...very phantom menace esque...

"The visuals are stunning"...yeah, so was the delta force in 1986. (And make no mistake...I loved me some delta force...but I had no clue about narrative or innuendo then)

And that is the problem with these anecdotal accounts. They vary greatly, and often are from the like minded people we surround ourselves with.

My old childhood friends, back from the OT era, universally love this movie. All hardcore SW fans that were turned off by the prequels. Alot of them are now in the film industry or ex film students, so that may be why they align more with critics. Who knows. But even the ones who don't at least have a strong like for the movie.

So if I were going off that experience alone, i would think all gen-xers loved the movie.

But your experience differs. So maybe it isn't a generational divide at all. Its what people are looking for in a movie. TLJ delivers for me on all the most important aspects of a movie. The ones where I find faults are generally aspects of a movie I can overlook. For another person, those aspects may be most important.

I know one guy who won't take a movie seriously if there's a single bad CG scene in it. Doesn't care about acting, script, plot, character, just production value. Now I have very little respect for that guy's opinion, but his criteria is clear even if it doesn't agree with mine.

At less extremes, that is true for all of us. We all have a different hierarchy of value in a movie. not dependent on age or any objective truth about what a movie should be. But based on our subjective preferences. That is the divide here. Not people who read the Thrawn trilogy, or the 15 people in the world who think AotC is the best Star Wars movie. Trying to place absolute value by generational divide is really a vast oversimplification.

 

[bclane]

Here is a short article that I found to be extremely interesting. A key point it makes is:

“The Last Jedi treated the Star Wars legend with a degree of irreverence, seeming to discard countless classic tropes. What fans haven’t considered, though, is that the idea of rejecting the past was never propounded by the film’s heroes.”

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-end-rey-luke/