Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[CaptainAmerica]

Here’s my burning question-

Why is @CaptainAmerica not weighing in????
He’s like wdwmagic’s biggest SW nerd

You rang?

I don't have time to catch up on the thread but I'd be very happy to address specific grievances if people want to quote or tag me to make it easier to keep track. I've only seen the film twice so far and I went from C+ on first viewing to full A on second viewing. There are a lot of threads that you miss the first time but are actually quite brilliantly integrated the second time. I also think that a lot of the humor that struck me as "too much" the first time was much softer on second viewing.

To tackle the big ones:

• Luke's death - Absolutely love every bit of the way Luke was portrayed in this film. It was very "Batman" in the sense that Luke recognized that he had become more of a symbol than a man. He initially mocked the idea that Rey wanted him to show up with his laser sword and stand alone against the First Order, but by the end he realized that the galaxy needs heroes sometimes. He transcended Luke Skywalker the man and embraced the role of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, Hero of the Alliance to Restore the Republic. You can see this in the denouement when Broom Kid's friend is telling his buddies about the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke inspired the next generation of heroes with his last action.
• Snoke's death - I'm 100% okay with this. Snoke is Snoke and that's all we need to know at this point. People who think otherwise need to go back and watch the Original Trilogy and realize how little we knew about the Emperor at the time. We didn't get the tale of Sheev Palpatine and his rise to power until the Prequel Trilogy (which everyone hated).
• Rey's parentage - This one I don't like for two reasons. First, I never bought into the argument that Rey was a Mary Sue character after The Force Awakens, but now it's getting harder to counter that argument. Rey used an actual Jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper in TFA, which I considered evidence that she either A) came from "Force royalty" or B) had been trained in the past but had her memories wiped or suppressed or something along those lines. So Rey seems a bit overpowered for someone who is ACTUALLY just a scavenger from Jakku. The second main reason I don't like that Rey is nobody is because it cheapens some of the hints in The Force Awakens to nothing more than red herrings. Maz asking "who's the girl" right before the camera cuts away, the Force vision where we see a young Rey screaming up at a departing starship, and the fact that the lightsaber that called to her was Anakin's and then Luke's. JJ didn't really invite fans to speculate about Snoke's origins, we did that on our own. But the mystery of Rey's origin was right there in TFA and the answer proved to be "loljk."

 

[21stamps]

You rang?

I don't have time to catch up on the thread but I'd be very happy to address specific grievances if people want to quote or tag me to make it easier to keep track. I've only seen the film twice so far and I went from C+ on first viewing to full A on second viewing. There are a lot of threads that you miss the first time but are actually quite brilliantly integrated the second time. I also think that a lot of the humor that struck me as "too much" the first time was much softer on second viewing.

To tackle the big ones:

• Luke's death - Absolutely love every bit of the way Luke was portrayed in this film. It was very "Batman" in the sense that Luke recognized that he had become more of a symbol than a man. He initially mocked the idea that Rey wanted him to show up with his laser sword and stand alone against the First Order, but by the end he realized that the galaxy needs heroes sometimes. He transcended Luke Skywalker the man and embraced the role of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, Hero of the Alliance to Restore the Republic. You can see this in the denouement when Broom Kid's friend is telling his buddies about the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke inspired the next generation of heroes with his last action.
• Snoke's death - I'm 100% okay with this. Snoke is Snoke and that's all we need to know at this point. People who think otherwise need to go back and watch the Original Trilogy and realize how little we knew about the Emperor at the time. We didn't get the tale of Sheev Palpatine and his rise to power until the Prequel Trilogy (which everyone hated).
• Rey's parentage - This one I don't like for two reasons. First, I never bought into the argument that Rey was a Mary Sue character after The Force Awakens, but now it's getting harder to counter that argument. Rey used an actual Jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper in TFA, which I considered evidence that she either A) came from "Force royalty" or B) had been trained in the past but had her memories wiped or suppressed or something along those lines. So Rey seems a bit overpowered for someone who is ACTUALLY just a scavenger from Jakku. The second main reason I don't like that Rey is nobody is because it cheapens some of the hints in The Force Awakens to nothing more than red herrings. Maz asking "who's the girl" right before the camera cuts away, the Force vision where we see a young Rey screaming up at a departing starship, and the fact that the lightsaber that called to her was Anakin's and then Luke's. JJ didn't really invite fans to speculate about Snoke's origins, we did that on our own. But the mystery of Rey's origin was right there in TFA and the answer proved to be "loljk."

“I’ve only seen it twice so far..” LOL.

I was very curious about your thoughts.
My thoughts on the parentage debate- I don’t believe what Kylo Ren said to Rey about her parents.. but we’ll see.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

My thoughts on the parentage debate- I don’t believe what Kylo Ren said to Rey about her parents.. but we’ll see.

I didn't at first either. But apparently Rian Johnson has been showing up at random theaters in Hollywood and, during a Q&A, pretty much stated explicitly that what Kylo said is true. I think there's room in the way it was presented for JJ to change it without conflicting anything, but I'm pretty sure that was Johnson's intent.

Doesn't explain why Rey doesn't actually remember any of it though.

 

[21stamps]

I didn't at first either. But apparently Rian Johnson has been showing up at random theaters in Hollywood and, during a Q&A, pretty much stated explicitly that what Kylo said is true. I think there's room in the way it was presented for JJ to change it without conflicting anything, but I'm pretty sure that was Johnson's intent.

Doesn't explain why Rey doesn't actually remember any of it though.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Maybe Luke’s speech about the force just ties into that then.. everyone and anyone can use it.

 

[fractal]

This article ^^

In other news.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi has the 2nd fastest 7-Day Domestic Box Office cume....of all time.

What's the only film... in history... it trails? The Force Awakens. Color me shocked.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...osser-ever-behind-force-awakens/#1da5ab87cf44

You and I could have wrote, directed, starred in and filmed a "Star Wars" movie on an iphone and we'd be at similar numbers after a week.

Pre-sales, marketing hype, the success of the franchise and previous films and the mythos created by the OT guaranteed this. Going forward it has to stand on it's own legs to a much greater degree. We'll see.

 

[Mickey's Angels]

“I’ve only seen it twice so far..” LOL.

I was very curious about your thoughts.
My thoughts on the parentage debate- I don’t believe what Kylo Ren said to Rey about her parents.. but we’ll see.

I remember I was thinking to myself, "Umm, we should believe what this evil dark person says because...?" lol...
Even if it is true, still, I thought it was a very important moment of character development for her, so I don't mind if JJ doesn't change this. The emotional thing for me was remembering how much she was in denial when Maz told her they're not coming back, and when she finally says it out loud to Kylo, it was heartbreaking seeing her coming to terms with this ugly truth. I mean, I'd be depressed too if my parents were nobody and not coming back for me, like a little puppy being abandoned in the streets. It made her stronger, though, and more committed to the fight. Also, I like how people are interpreting this moment as a way to tell us that we don't need to be descended from greatness to be great. I didn't really think of it that way until I started talking to people.

 

[bclane]

You rang?

I don't have time to catch up on the thread but I'd be very happy to address specific grievances if people want to quote or tag me to make it easier to keep track. I've only seen the film twice so far and I went from C+ on first viewing to full A on second viewing. There are a lot of threads that you miss the first time but are actually quite brilliantly integrated the second time. I also think that a lot of the humor that struck me as "too much" the first time was much softer on second viewing.

To tackle the big ones:

• Luke's death - Absolutely love every bit of the way Luke was portrayed in this film. It was very "Batman" in the sense that Luke recognized that he had become more of a symbol than a man. He initially mocked the idea that Rey wanted him to show up with his laser sword and stand alone against the First Order, but by the end he realized that the galaxy needs heroes sometimes. He transcended Luke Skywalker the man and embraced the role of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, Hero of the Alliance to Restore the Republic. You can see this in the denouement when Broom Kid's friend is telling his buddies about the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke inspired the next generation of heroes with his last action.
• Snoke's death - I'm 100% okay with this. Snoke is Snoke and that's all we need to know at this point. People who think otherwise need to go back and watch the Original Trilogy and realize how little we knew about the Emperor at the time. We didn't get the tale of Sheev Palpatine and his rise to power until the Prequel Trilogy (which everyone hated).
• Rey's parentage - This one I don't like for two reasons. First, I never bought into the argument that Rey was a Mary Sue character after The Force Awakens, but now it's getting harder to counter that argument. Rey used an actual Jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper in TFA, which I considered evidence that she either A) came from "Force royalty" or B) had been trained in the past but had her memories wiped or suppressed or something along those lines. So Rey seems a bit overpowered for someone who is ACTUALLY just a scavenger from Jakku. The second main reason I don't like that Rey is nobody is because it cheapens some of the hints in The Force Awakens to nothing more than red herrings. Maz asking "who's the girl" right before the camera cuts away, the Force vision where we see a young Rey screaming up at a departing starship, and the fact that the lightsaber that called to her was Anakin's and then Luke's. JJ didn't really invite fans to speculate about Snoke's origins, we did that on our own. But the mystery of Rey's origin was right there in TFA and the answer proved to be "loljk."

Wow C+ to a full A...right on man. I think this movie is brilliant and while no movie is going to satisfy everyone, I keep reading that a lot of people like it better with subsequent viewings.

I also think there is more to Rey than what Kylo says and the filmmakers are just trying to redirect us at this point but we’ll see. Even if she is truly a nobody, she is definitely the apple of the Force’s eye right now. The only thing that bugs me about Rey is how she was able to immediately fly the Millennium Falcon. Maybe, like Luke before he joined the Rebellion, she already had some kind of flight training that we aren’t aware of yet. Anyway, I like how in TFA Kylo was mentally overpowering Rey at first, but as he continued trying to get answers out of her eventually she was able to resist. It wasn’t immediate that she could resist. It was all instinct the way she adapted and to me spoke of the awakening happening in her. Kylo even makes a comment for her to not be afraid and that he senses it too. Then later, when she uses the Jedi mind trick on 007, she is unsuccessful in her first couple of attempts. To me, I took that as the Force speaking to her in a way, letting her know that she had abilities, but she has to figure it out through multiple attempts. It’s as if she could sense a weaker mind but wasn’t sure at first how to manipulate it. She definitely learns rather quickly though. Using the Force is all about letting go and trusting your feelings. She just seems rather adept at doing this and a faster learner of the letting go thing than Luke ever was...all imo of course.

 

[bclane]

I didn't at first either. But apparently Rian Johnson has been showing up at random theaters in Hollywood and, during a Q&A, pretty much stated explicitly that what Kylo said is true. I think there's room in the way it was presented for JJ to change it without conflicting anything, but I'm pretty sure that was Johnson's intent.

Doesn't explain why Rey doesn't actually remember any of it though.

He has definitely left it open for JJ to change. I don’t remember his exact words but it was something to the effect that Kylo believed what he said and that it was important for Rey’s hero journey to believe this, at that point in time. But it is open enough that JJ could give us a different back story in IX.

Edit: either way, it works for me. She is a Force prodigy imo, raw and untrained, but already more powerful and instinctual than what we’ve seen before. I can’t wait to see what she can do after reading the ancient Jedi books and possibly continuing her training with Force ghosts in the next one.

 

[Elizabeth Swann]

He has definitely left it open for JJ to change. I don’t remember his exact words but it was something to the effect that Kylo believed what he said and that it was important for Rey’s hero journey to believe this, at that point in time. But it is open enough that JJ could give us a different back story in IX.

He says Kylo believes what he tells Rey in that moment. http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-last-jedi-spoiler-rey-parents/2/

 

[Mickey's Angels]

The only thing that bugs me about Rey is how she was able to immediately fly the Millennium Falcon. Maybe, like Luke before he joined the Rebellion, she already had some kind of flight training that we aren’t aware of yet.

Mmm hmm. I remember this was one of the major things in people's complaint list when TFA came out. I didn't disagree with them, though. I watched the prequels later and remember hearing Qui-Gon telling Anakin how the Force might be helping him with his reflexes to fly those pod racers. I thought that maybe the same thing was happening to Rey during that Falcon chase scene.

 

[flynnibus]

So the severe daily drop in gross is nothing?

When comparing apples and tulips... yes

There is no reason to expect day to day equity across different calendar years plus changes in the markets you are comparing. Focus on the Macro level, not the tiny micro level. Deviation there is noisy - not conclusive

 

[bclane]

Mmm hmm. I remember this was one of the major things in people's complaint list when TFA came out. I didn't disagree with them, though. I watched the prequels later and remember hearing Qui-Gon telling Anakin how the Force might be helping him with his reflexes to fly those pod racers. I thought that maybe the same thing was happening to Rey during that Falcon chase scene.

True. Anakin was in the small minority of humans that could have been successful in a pod race and it was only because the Force was strong within him...even at his very young age and with zero training in the use of the Force. It’s more the technical aspect of the controls and such that gives me pause. She did struggle with it at first, repeatedly running it into the ground etc, but I would think that you’d at least need a basic understanding of how a ship like that operates before being able to even turn it on. But I don’t let that impede on my ability to enjoy the movie. I simply assume I don’t have all the info yet and keep rolling.

 

[Gomer]

True. Anakin was in the small minority of humans that could have been successful in a pod race and it was only because the Force was strong within him...even at his very young age and with zero training in the use of the Force. It’s more the technical aspect of the controls and such that gives me pause. She did struggle with it at first, repeatedly running it into the ground etc, but I would think that you’d at least need a basic understanding of how a ship like that operates before being able to even turn it on. But I don’t let that impede on my ability to enjoy the movie. I simply assume I don’t have all the info yet and keep rolling.

You also have to take in account Rey's current state vs previous Jedi at the point we meet her. Rey's hermetic existence put her in what was basically an ideal jedi state. Living completely in the moment day to day, with no attachments, no materialism. The complete opposite of Luke and Annakin. She basically lived like Yoda did on Dagobah. Her carving the days into the body of that AT-AT might as well have been a meditation mantra.

So, she was a clean slate. A perfect vessel for the force. Just untrained. I feel like the inclusion of Lor San Tekka's ascetic jedi worshipers was a way to hint towards that for her. They were living as they thought a true Jedi should. She was doing the same, just not by choice.

I had some nitpicks in TFA about her use of Jedi powers. The mind trick was a step too far for me. That would clearly require some teaching. Some say she picked up some tricks from Kylo when she invaded his mind, but that's a reach for me.

Light saber techniques, flying, stuff like that is more instinctual and in line with being a step above what Luke and Anakin had done in the past.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

When comparing apples and tulips... yes

There is no reason to expect day to day equity across different calendar years plus changes in the markets you are comparing. Focus on the Macro level, not the tiny micro level. Deviation there is noisy - not conclusive

If you're comparing TFA with this one...yes. But what if it's below rogue one?

Rogue one didn't have the gaudy opening...but it had better word of mouth - it seems - and had to deal with no skywalker...

I could contend that R1 had the only 0:15 of skywalker since 1983...actually.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You commented almost instantly which means you didn't read the article posted. Just reacted spontaneously.

To the sixteenth smoke screen of the day? Absolutely.

Heres an idea..maybe it's something to watch?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Didn't drop yesterday. Numbers are in for yesterday. On a day schools in recess grew by 14%, box office increased by 6.5%. TFA on the same day last year dropped a whopping 28%.

Today, schools in recess will increase to 61%. Should be a nice number for TLJ today.

http://deadline.com/2017/12/last-je...efron-greatest-showman-box-office-1202230784/

Ok...that's positive movement...

So that's something to watch..

(Yes...I can repeat that everyday till January 15th and be totally correct)

 

[Mickey's Angels]

True. Anakin was in the small minority of humans that could have been successful in a pod race and it was only because the Force was strong within him...even at his very young age and with zero training in the use of the Force. It’s more the technical aspect of the controls and such that gives me pause. She did struggle with it at first, repeatedly running it into the ground etc, but I would think that you’d at least need a basic understanding of how a ship like that operates before being able to even turn it on. But I don’t let that impede on my ability to enjoy the movie. I simply assume I don’t have all the info yet and keep rolling.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, as many times as I've watched the movies, I still don't know what buttons they're pressing in that cockpit. It looks like a hot mess in there. hahaha
Over the years, I just figured that the technology in that universe must be sorta like how people nowadays handle the different types of technology here in the real world. If we give a Windows user an Apple computer or vice versa, the users can figure out basic things like how to turn on the computer, how to type things, and how to use the internet and figure out where to go to change settings, but the awesome shortcuts and other gimmicks of each OS might be too tricky to figure out unless they have a certain amount of experience.

The bits of pieces of info are coming back to me about TFA. It was hinted that Rey already knew how the Falcon worked. I remember her explaining to Han how her boss (forgot his name) added something to mess with the hyperspace drive. Also, she knew exactly where to go to fix the leak of that toxic gas stuff. Seeing and hearing those clues made me think in my mind that she knew the ship for a long time.

 

[bclane]

You also have to take in account Rey's current state vs previous Jedi at the point we meet her. Rey's hermetic existence put her in what was basically an ideal jedi state. Living completely in the moment day to day, with no attachments, no materialism. The complete opposite of Luke and Annakin. She basically lived like Yoda did on Dagobah. Her carving the days into the body of that AT-AT might as well have been a meditation mantra.

So, she was a clean slate. A perfect vessel for the force. Just untrained. I feel like the inclusion of Lor San Tekka's ascetic jedi worshipers was a way to hint towards that for her. They were living as they thought a true Jedi should. She was doing the same, just not by choice.

I had some nitpicks in TFA about her use of Jedi powers. The mind trick was a step too far for me. That would clearly require some teaching. Some say she picked up some tricks from Kylo when she invaded his mind, but that's a reach for me.

Light saber techniques, flying, stuff like that is more instinctual and in line with being a step above what Luke and Anakin had done in the past.

Excellent points. The whole blank slate thing makes perfect sense to me. And I like that we are both long term fans who thoroughly enjoyed the movie even though we recognize it wasn’t perfect, but have different nitpicks based on how we relate to/understand the Force. To me that just makes the discussion more interesting and enjoyable.

 

[fractal]

Btw and a bit off topic, the original Star Wars was very close to being a complete disaster if not for amazing editing. In fact, if it wasn't for Marcia Lucas there's a good chance we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Not only did they edit the film, many of the events in SW were added and major things in the original cut were discarded. Interesting video for fans of the movie...

 

[spacemt354]

To the sixteenth smoke screen of the day? Absolutely.

Heres an idea..maybe it's something to watch?

"Something to watch"

We are watching it -- you apparently aren't because you didn't even know the numbers went up yesterday, which was stated in the 'smokescreen' article provided for you. Carry on with your 'watching'