Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[Gomer]

Roger Friedman is a reputable movie critic/expert. He liked the movie and actually shocked at the ticket sales numbers. Again, take out the pre-sales and the numbers are well below expectations.

They really aren't though. They are well below TFA, but not projections. Not according to any of the legitimate trades anyway. Friedman may be reputable, but he is in disagreement with pretty much every other box office analyst. Maybe he's the prophet here and everyone else is wrong. But until I see proof, I'm gonna lean towards the majority.

This low grosses of the early week were built into the projections from the beginning and it is right on pace with all reports I saw from Forbes, Deadline, and the other trades pre-release. If the 4 day Christmas comes in sub $100m then I'll start to buy in to this idea.

I'm not dismissive of the idea that it is going to under-perform somewhat due to this loud RT backlash. But as of yet, there hasn't been any actual data to support the idea that this movie is going to crumble at the box office and "fall flat on its face" as you put it. It will cross a billion by New Years. Maybe a bit slower than expected, but still extremely successful.

 

[CinematicFusion]

Really well made movie that is the biggest let down of all of the films for me. I hate it! (all my opinion...I'm sure many of you love the character arc of Luke Skywalker)
Disney, Iger, Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson destroyed the character of Luke Skywalker. They changed the very nature of who he is just to set up a contrast for Rey. They made him a quitter. He didn't turn to the dark side in hopes of saving friends, or battle at all cost the good fight, or go and wait for the next light side hero to emerge to balance the force. Nope....Disney had Luke Skywalker quit!
(Yes...luke redeems himself by faxing in a fight at the end after 14 years of quitting....and then dies. Horrible)

I loved Mark Hamills performance, it was great. He jumped right back into character. I just hate his story arc.

1. Luke Skywalker would have never quit on his friends. He would have even thought about firing up his lightsaber to strike down Han and Leia's son because he felt he had a lot of the dark side in him. This is the same guy who wouldn't quit on Vader. The same guy who risk his life and went back to save Han and Leia on Besbin. Yet Luke is written to quit on his friends and family for 14 years. He completely blocks off the force for 14 years.
What an amazing let down.

Heck....they even made Han Solo a dead beat dad. When the going got tuff....he left Leia.
That would have never happened.
Han, Luke, Leia kept fighting for each other.... that should have never changed, even when things got hard....that's what makes a great story. Disney even wiped out any strength to Han's death.....hours later, Kylo still can't kill his mother. He was still conflicted. They wasted Han Solo's death.
Disney has destroyed those characters all to kill the past and bring in the new.
I have a feeling the box office will start to suffer and play like rouge one now. I honestly have no desire to see the next films opening night. The Star Wars I knew ended in ep.8
I'm sure Disney's marketing team doesn't care at all about the older fans....just the knew. Tip the cap to the new fans, I'm out.

Hope Disney doesn't buy the Potter series. Imagine what they would do to Harry. They would have him turn his back on his friends, think about killing Ron's son and shut himself off from everyone for 14 years in the worlds greatest need. Wow....just wow Disney. Horrible.

 

[fractal]

I'm sure Disney is thrilled with the pre-sales. I'm also sure they are not thrilled with this week's sales.

 

[Gomer]

Really well made movie that is the biggest let down of all of the films for me. I hate it! (all my opinion...I'm sure many of you love the character arc of Luke Skywalker)
Disney, Iger, Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson destroyed the character of Luke Skywalker. They changed the very nature of who he is just to set up a contrast for Rey. They made him a quitter. He didn't turn to the dark side in hopes of saving friends, or battle at all cost the good fight, or go and wait for the next light side hero to emerge to balance the force. Nope....Disney had Luke Skywalker quit!
(Yes...luke redeems himself by faxing in a fight at the end after 14 years of quitting....and then dies. Horrible)

I loved Mark Hamills performance, it was great. He jumped right back into character. I just hate his story arc.

1. Luke Skywalker would have never quit on his friends. He would have even thought about firing up his lightsaber to strike down Han and Leia's son because he felt he had a lot of the dark side in him. This is the same guy who wouldn't quit on Vader. The same guy who risk his life and went back to save Han and Leia on Besbin. Yet Luke is written to quit on his friends and family for 14 years. He completely blocks off the force for 14 years.
What an amazing let down.

Heck....they even made Han Solo a dead beat dad. When the going got tuff....he left Leia.
That would have never happened.
Han, Luke, Leia kept fighting for each other.... that should have never changed, even when things got hard....that's what makes a great story. Disney even wiped out any strength to Han's death.....hours later, Kylo still can't kill his mother. He was still conflicted. They wasted Han Solo's death.
Disney has destroyed those characters all to kill the past and bring in the new.
I have a feeling the box office will start to suffer and play like rouge one now. I honestly have no desire to see the next films opening night. The Star Wars I knew ended in ep.8
I'm sure Disney's marketing team doesn't care at all about the older fans....just the knew. Tip the cap to the new fans, I'm out.

Hope Disney doesn't buy the Potter series. Imagine what they would do to Harry. They would have him turn his back on his friends, think about killing Ron's son and shut himself off from everyone for 14 years in the worlds greatest need. Wow....just wow Disney. Horrible.

As a life-long Star Wars fan (and not a new one), I completely disagree with everything you said here, but I respect the general viewpoint.

I understand a large number of fans will feel the same way. Disney knew it would be divisive. Johnson knew it would be divisive. But I'm glad they did it.

I had no appetite for Superhero Luke coming into save the day. This movie is an examination of the daily struggle to decide between good and evil. A one time decision 30 years prior doesn't exempt someone from moments of weakness for the remainder of his life. Luke's moment of weakness came at a very bad time and had spiraling repercussions, but it was just a moment. no different than the moment where he looks down to see his mechanical hand on the death star. And it was his shame over that weakness that drove him into isolation because this time, it wasn't clean. It had major impact on those he loved.

It was human, and real, and made me love Luke as a character more than I had before. Because it wasn't easy. He wasn't a god. He was fallible. And that fallibility is at the center of the movie's themes and what drives all the plot lines. Learning to grow past our own fallibility. It's meta in all the right ways. The franchise is moving on past the Skywalkers, so the characters had to learn how to move on from them as well. Because in the end, they are humans not gods. And the universe is full of nobody's who are just as important as any Luke, Anakin or Ben.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Funny how a different, less click-baity headline, and a more balanced analysis change the entire feel.

‘Last Jedi’ Raises Running Domestic Cume To $296M+; ‘Jumanji’ Totaling $15M+ In Two Days – Update
http://deadline.com/2017/12/last-je...efron-greatest-showman-box-office-1202230784/




Additionally, TLJ is projecting a 5-10% increase day over day from Wednesday to thursday. TFA on the same day sufferred a - 28% drop.

The schools thing is real. How much impact remains to be seen. But if TLJ is still projected at over $700 I'd say the idea that it "continues to struggle" may be a bit of an attempt to drive people to a site looking for attention.

I agree It's still too early to tell...though it's comparisons to TFA and R1 are not favorable at this moment.

You know what it is?

SOMETHING TO WATCH

 

[Gomer]

I agree It's still too early to tell...though it's comparisons to TFA and R1 are not favorable at this moment.

You know what it is?

SOMETHING TO WATCH

I'm not sure...but I'm getting the feeling you think this is something worth watching. But maybe I'm misreading you.

 

[fractal]

As a life-long Star Wars fan (and not a new one), I completely disagree with everything you said here, but I respect the general viewpoint.

I understand a large number of fans will feel the same way. Disney knew it would be divisive. Johnson knew it would be divisive. But I'm glad they did it.

I had no appetite for Superhero Luke coming into save the day. This movie is an examination of the daily struggle to decide between good and evil. A one time decision 30 years prior doesn't exempt someone from moments of weakness for the remainder of his life. Luke's moment of weakness came at a very bad time and had spiraling repercussions, but it was just a moment. no different than the moment where he looks down to see his mechanical hand on the death star. And it was his shame over that weakness that drove him into isolation because this time, it wasn't clean. It had major impact on those he loved.

It was human, and real, and made me love Luke as a character more than I had before. Because it wasn't easy. He wasn't a god. He was fallible. And that fallibility is at the center of the movie's themes and what drives all the plot lines. Learning to grow past our own fallibility. It's meta in all the right ways. The franchise is moving on past the Skywalkers, so the characters had to learn how to move on from them as well. Because in the end, they are humans not gods. And the universe is full of nobody's who are just as important as any Luke, Anakin or Ben.

Except for Rey. She's a god.

 

[CinematicFusion]

As a life-long Star Wars fan (and not a new one), I completely disagree with everything you said here, but I respect the general viewpoint.

I understand a large number of fans will feel the same way. Disney knew it would be divisive. Johnson knew it would be divisive. But I'm glad they did it.

I had no appetite for Superhero Luke coming into save the day. This movie is an examination of the daily struggle to decide between good and evil. A one time decision 30 years prior doesn't exempt someone from moments of weakness for the remainder of his life. Luke's moment of weakness came at a very bad time and had spiraling repercussions, but it was just a moment. no different than the moment where he looks down to see his mechanical hand on the death star. And it was his shame over that weakness that drove him into isolation because this time, it wasn't clean. It had major impact on those he loved.

It was human, and real, and made me love Luke as a character more than I had before. Because it wasn't easy. He wasn't a god. He was fallible. And that fallibility is at the center of the movie's themes and what drives all the plot lines. Learning to grow past our own fallibility. It's meta in all the right ways. The franchise is moving on past the Skywalkers, so the characters had to learn how to move on from them as well. Because in the end, they are humans not gods. And the universe is full of nobody's who are just as important as any Luke, Anakin or Ben.

I'm not saying I want superhuman Luke. This is Rey's story. I would have taken Obi-wan Luke. I would have taken a dark side Luke.
Disney made Luke a quitter. It's completely against what that character represents. I can't buy into it.
Obi-wan didn't quit....he waited,watched, protected Luke and never turned away from the force.

Is this what Disney does to Rey in the next trilogy...make her quit?

Glad you enjoyed it, I hated it. But...I'm an older fan with no voice. Doesn't really matter how I feel to Disney.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As a life-long Star Wars fan (and not a new one), I completely disagree with everything you said here, but I respect the general viewpoint.

I understand a large number of fans will feel the same way. Disney knew it would be divisive. Johnson knew it would be divisive. But I'm glad they did it.

I had no appetite for Superhero Luke coming into save the day. This movie is an examination of the daily struggle to decide between good and evil. A one time decision 30 years prior doesn't exempt someone from moments of weakness for the remainder of his life. Luke's moment of weakness came at a very bad time and had spiraling repercussions, but it was just a moment. no different than the moment where he looks down to see his mechanical hand on the death star. And it was his shame over that weakness that drove him into isolation because this time, it wasn't clean. It had major impact on those he loved.

It was human, and real, and made me love Luke as a character more than I had before. Because it wasn't easy. He wasn't a god. He was fallible. And that fallibility is at the center of the movie's themes and what drives all the plot lines. Learning to grow past our own fallibility. It's meta in all the right ways. The franchise is moving on past the Skywalkers, so the characters had to learn how to move on from them as well. Because in the end, they are humans not gods. And the universe is full of nobody's who are just as important as any Luke, Anakin or Ben.

We can all agree to disagree...but need not contradict every opinion that doesn't shovel sludge for disney.

It's polarizing to say the least.

As far as "complete disagreement"...ummm...mark hamill said he completely disagreed with his character...is that an "internet troll/hater" opinion too?

There's a valid argument there. And to imply "Johnson knows better" is not holding up...at least not this week.

 

[Gomer]

I'm not saying I want superhuman Luke. This is Rey's story. I would have taken Obi-wan Luke. I would have taken a dark side Luke.
Disney made Luke a quitter. It's completely against what that character represents. I can't buy into it.
Obi-wan didn't quit....he waited,watched, protected Luke and never turned away from the force.

Is this what Disney does to Rey in the next trilogy...make her quit?

Glad you enjoyed it, I hated it. But...I'm an older fan with no voice. Doesn't really matter how I feel to Disney.

I am an older (OT era) fan too. I don't think its a divide between eras. I know many OT era fans who love this movie (most of teh ones I have talked to actually). I think its just a division of expectations. What you wanted out of this movie vs what others wanted.

 

[Gomer]

We can all agree to disagree...but need not contradict every opinion that doesn't shovel sludge for disney.

It's polarizing to say the least.

As far as "complete disagreement"...ummm...mark hamill said he completely disagreed with his character...is that an "internet troll/hater" opinion too?

There's a valid argument there. And to imply "Johnson knows better" is not holding up...at least not this week.

Well, if you're referring to that video that's been circulated in the last few days, that is fabricated. Edited to make it appear like he was talking about TLJ when he wasn't.

But yes, Mark did have issues with the direction. I don't really care what the director or the actor think. I care what I saw and appreciated.

I also don't see how me saying I disagree but respect his opinion is polarizing or "shoveling sludge" for Disney.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'm not sure...but I'm getting the feeling you think this is something worth watching. But maybe I'm misreading you.

Yeah...but what's my devious, hidden meaning?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Well, if you're referring to that video that's been circulated in the last few days, that is fabricated. Edited to make it appear like he was talking about TLJ when he wasn't.

But yes, Mark did have issues with the direction. I don't really care what the director or the actor think. I care what I saw and appreciated.

I also don't see how me saying I disagree but respect his opinion is polarizing or "shoveling sludge" for Disney.

No video...his comments on Ellen, good morning America, kimmel...

There was little ambiguity when he says "I hated it...but"

That to me meant he was sandbagging it and it turned out great...or he was caveating for potential backlash.

It's the latter...for an experienced Hollywood actor.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I am an older (OT era) fan too. I don't think its a divide between eras. I know many OT era fans who love this movie (most of teh ones I have talked to actually). I think its just a division of expectations. What you wanted out of this movie vs what others wanted.

I don't think it's a division of "wants" at all...

That conveniently puts it ALL on the audience and none on Disney. You'll find that anyone who portrays disney as "do no wrong" is gonna get the cold steel from me...because they do it ALL the time.

I think the question is whether the movie is true to the canon that made it a phenomenon?...and that is bigger than personal expectations or theories. From an enjoyment standpoint AND a business standpoint.

Really...we are almost living the prequel debate again. This time disney had done better with the "craft" of the movies. Don't get me wrong...that's huge. But I'm not sure they addressed the shortcomings in story telling...which is a much bigger deal.

 

[CinematicFusion]

I am an older (OT era) fan too. I don't think its a divide between eras. I know many OT era fans who love this movie (most of teh ones I have talked to actually). I think its just a division of expectations. What you wanted out of this movie vs what others wanted.

I'm with you. I'm on the other side. You loved how they treated Luke. I can't stand it. Fair or not, some of us fans waited years to see Luke Skywalker on the big screen.... and the camera pans on the Luke Skywalker quitter version. Disney screaming.....this isn't your movie anymore, deal with it. Very very let down.

As I said, well directed visual story that is one incredible let down.
Again, I'm a small voice. I'm sure box office tracking is blowing the doors off all previous star wars films.
But for me....it's one I don't go back again and watch in the theater. How depressing. Like you said....Rian Johnson and Disney wanted it this way.

 

[Gomer]

I don't think it's a division of "wants" at all...

That conveniently puts it ALL on the audience and none on Disney. You'll find that anyone who portrays disney as "do no wrong" is gonna get the cold steel from me...because they do it ALL the time.

I think the question is whether the movie is true to the canon that made it a phenomenon?...and that is bigger than personal expectations or theories. From an enjoyment standpoint AND a business standpoint.

Really...we are almost living the prequel debate again. This time disney had done better with the "craft" of the movies. Don't get me wrong...that's huge. But I'm not sure they addressed the shortcomings in story telling...which is a much bigger deal.

First, assuming I am in the" Disney can do no wrong" is a big error on your part.

Just because someone likes this movie, doesn't mean they are taking Disney's side blindly. You want to make arguments against the film, they are there to be made. Assuming everyone who is on the other side of the debate is some sycophant or blind fanboy, diminishes the quality of your argument.

Even just my activity in this thread, admitting I didn't like Rogue one, should have clued you in there.

And yes, I stand by the idea that your enjoyment is based on what you bring to the movie. Personal interpretation of canon has always been the source of these debates. (Should Yoda use a light saber, is force lighting a reasonable force power, Is Luke truly a Jedi if he uses his powers to kill) I don't find that TLJ violates canon as it exists for me in any way. It builds on it, adds to it, but never violates to it. But that is a subjective interpretation. Your mileage may vary.

 

[CinematicFusion]

I agree with Mark Hamill's response. It feels right, it feels true. Again, not upset with anyone who enjoyed the film...great for you guys. I'm just a small minority who hated the direction they took with Skywalker.

Mark Hamill:
“The Last Jedi” shows the character in hiding, and Hamill appeared to take issue with that.

“I said to Rian, I said ‘Jedis don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup, but if he made a mistake he would try and right that wrong, so right there, we had a fundamental difference, but, it’s not my story anymore,” Hamill, 66, said in an interview posted to YouTube on Wednesday. “It’s somebody else’s story, and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective.”

Hamill added: “I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker.”

Hamill’s comments appear to confirm that so-called creative differences were shaking up the galaxy far, far away long before the film’s release.

“I still haven’t accepted it completely, but it’s only a movie,” Hamill said. “I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset.”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

First, assuming I am in the" Disney can do no wrong" is a big error on your part.

Just because someone likes this movie, doesn't mean they are taking Disney's side blindly. You want to make arguments against the film, they are there to be made. Assuming everyone who is on the other side of the debate is some sycophant or blind fanboy, diminishes the quality of your argument.

Even just my activity in this thread, admitting I didn't like Rogue one, should have clued you in there.

And yes, I stand by the idea that your enjoyment is based on what you bring to the movie. Personal interpretation of canon has always been the source of these debates. (Should Yoda use a light saber, is force lighting a reasonable force power, Is Luke truly a Jedi if he uses his powers to kill) I don't find that TLJ violates canon as it exists for me in any way. It builds on it, adds to it, but never violates to it. But that is a subjective interpretation. Your mileage may vary.

Woah, woah...you don't seem like that person. But this a public forum and not a direct conversation...so generalities Are ok. If I flamed you that was my mistake.

There are...a lot of those types out there...included in this debate...I think we agree? Two are pegged here easily.
I try to be fair on the successes and failures - of which there are many...both sides of the table are crowded.

But I'm gonna get back to what I said after the diversion: this is NOT about people being disappointed on their own theories...this is really about conjuring the guttural "feel" of Star Wars...

And the is NOT about being a kid vs an adult...the originals resonated with both.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree with Mark Hamill's response. It feels right, it feels true. Again, not upset with anyone who enjoyed the film...great for you guys. I'm just a small minority who hated the direction they took with Skywalker.

Mark Hamill:
“The Last Jedi” shows the character in hiding, and Hamill appeared to take issue with that.

“I said to Rian, I said ‘Jedis don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup, but if he made a mistake he would try and right that wrong, so right there, we had a fundamental difference, but, it’s not my story anymore,” Hamill, 66, said in an interview posted to YouTube on Wednesday. “It’s somebody else’s story, and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective.”

Hamill added: “I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker, he’s not my Luke Skywalker.”

Hamill’s comments appear to confirm that so-called creative differences were shaking up the galaxy far, far away long before the film’s release.

“I still haven’t accepted it completely, but it’s only a movie,” Hamill said. “I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset.”

EXXXXXX-ACTLY

 

[Gomer]

Woah, woah...you don't seem like that person. But this a public forum and not a direct conversation...so generalities Are ok. If I flamed you that was my mistake.

There are...a lot of those types out there...included in this debate...I think we agree? Two are pegged here easily.
I try to be fair on the successes and failures - of which there are many...both sides of the table are crowded.

But I'm gonna get back to what I said after the diversion: this is NOT about people being disappointed on their own theories...this is really about conjuring the guttural "feel" of Star Wars...

And the is NOT about being a kid vs an adult...the originals resonated with both.

OK, we'll move past the Disney stuff. I agree some will make a pro or anti-disney stance reflexively. But it is dangerous to assume that of anyone...especially over the internet unless you have an extensive history with them.

But to your other point, how can this be an objective betrayal of that Star Wars "feel" if there is such an big divide in fandom.

Like I said above. I'm a child of the seventies. I'm an OT guy. All my friends are of that era. Many of the people I work with are as well (both in my day job and at the site I write for). And most of those I've talked to disagree with what you are saying. Are we all deluding ourselves in your mind. Are we going to wake up 5 years from now and say, "oh, maybe the haters were right. This doesn't feel like Star Wars"

I guess its possible. But its equally possible that those who were initially put off by the strangeness of that Star Wars "feel" will realize, after the shock has worn off, that its there underneath the new bells and whistles.

I've seen so many stories of people who had mixed feelings on this film, turn to love after repeat viewings. I've only heard one anecdotal story in the opposite direction. Someone whose negative opinions were solidified by a subsequent viewing.

That is the opposite of the PT track. Where people were in denial and slowly came to realize those movies were very flawed. With TLJ, almost everyone I have seen has grown their appreciation with more exposure. That is not scientific, but it does show a trend that there is a potential to, once the shock wares off, develop a deep appreciation for this movie that may have been off putting to some at first.