Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[21stamps]

Lol...so disney has oversaturated the market causing far less demand for merchandise and that's not a softened market?

Hmmm...

But I do agree it's oversaturated...propel and sphero have been sending out desperation sale emails for weeks...

Totally valid excuse but it still ain't good for disney...

I think Disney expected it. There is no way that they could think the same amount of merchandise would be sold this year as it was in 2015/16.
I think there are people who didn’t run out and buy all of it in 2015/2016.. those people are slowly building and will still be shopping. Families like mine who went overboard with it all the first year.. now it’s just smaller purchases with more time in between the purchases.

 

[Gomer]

Lol...so disney has oversaturated the market causing far less demand for merchandise and that's not a softened market?

Hmmm...

But I do agree it's oversaturated...propel and sphero have been sending out desperation sale emails for weeks...

Totally valid excuse but it still ain't good for disney...

I think the disconnect here is that you are assuming Disney sees the TFA numbers across the board as some sort of average that would be strived for with every release. If they did, then that is poor management by Disney.

TFA should be treated a a positive outlier from the beginning for all projections. A head start on recouping their investment in Lucasfilm. Not a starting point from which they fall. Falling from the TFA numbers isn't bad for Disney. The fact that they ever hit them was good for Disney. Not hitting them subsequently should have been built into their plans.

 

[bclane]

I think the disconnect here is that you are assuming Disney sees the TFA numbers across the board as some sort of average that would be strived for with every release. If they did, then that is poor management by Disney.

TFA should be treated a a positive outlier from the beginning for all projections. A head start on recouping their investment in Lucasfilm. Not a starting point from which they fall. Falling from the TFA numbers isn't bad for Disney. The fact that they ever hit them was good for Disney. Not hitting them subsequently should have been built into their plans.

I agree. And personally, I would view Rogue One as more of a baseline goal going forward than anything in the current trilogy. IX will be bigger because it ends the original saga but if they can hit Rogue One numbers for everything else I don’t see how they can’t view that as a success.

 

[MisterPenguin]

That scene with Yoda really raised the stakes, but also raised some questions.

Wouldn't a force ghost with physical powers be too powerful? Why didn't Obi-Wan just force ghost appear inside the Death Star and zap the reactor with lightning?

The display of Force ability from a Force ghost may have something to do with being at Ach-too. [Gesundheit!] Jedi Temples and all that have manifested physical phenomena in the non-movie canon.

 

[flynnibus]

There is a difference in being able to recover from something and it being insignificant. Starkiller base was a significant threat to every other planet in the galaxy clearly. What with its physics defying ability to blow up any planet it wants. The resistance needed to blow it up to survive, but that doesn't necesarrily mean it needs to be the end all be all of the First Order.

Blowing up a death star or a Starkiller can be a significant victory for the heroes without being a crippling blow to the bad guy, just by the nature of the David vs Goliath story. TFA, and ANH for that matter,was a story about a desperate win to stay alive, not a war ending victory.

By your logic.. starkiller base was a big deal to the enemies of the FO... but not so much for the FO. The point is they need to have a lot on the line as well.. otherwise its no biggie for them to lose it. Then it's a tale of a man vs an ant. The ant has everything to lose, the man doesn't care what the ant does. That doesn't work the same... I mean if by taking away starkiller base and the FO just shrugs its shoulders... the rebellion isn't worth chasing around the galaxy with all your might.

In the OT, the Empire is projected to be dominate and almost unlimited in resources. The senate is just a leftover that they are finally dismissing and just getting rid of entirely (cue the Roman tie-backs). The rebellion is against the established, dominate force. So taking out the Death Star is about taking away a new capability that will further the Empire's ability to oppress and subjugate other systems. Taking out the Death Star is to knock the legs out of the empire's ability to project power and their ability to keep systems in line... not so much about 'eliminating the empire'. The death star is their new secret super weapon.. they don't want to lose as it impacts their ability to project and suppress. In V, and VII, the Empire is still assumed to be the dominate force in the galaxy with a ton of resources.

The First Order.. is not in the same spot. At the start of TFA, the First Order is itself painted as an usurper trying to rise up and gain the upper hand against the established republic. They don't have the dominance and omni-presence the Empire does in the OT.

(one of the things I don't understand about TFA is the 'rebels' are supposed to be fighting.. is the republic just non-military? Why are they not just the republic vs the FO?.. I actually bought the novelization this week hoping it tries to spell it out more).

So if you are this upstart... and you develop something bigger and more advanced than anything in the known galaxy.. that infers a major commitment This isn't something they just do on the side.. It's their crown jewel. So to lose that.. is like the death star.. it seriously impacts their ability to project power and subjugate other systems. The FO is going to create a power vacuum and then try to move into it. So the starkiller base is a major tool for the FO to break out and take control of the galaxy. Losing that, hurts that plan... so this is the FO's 'skin in the game' so to speak with starkiller base.

In ESB, the empire is striking back after the rebels flee their 'no longer secret' base. ESB is a pursuit film.. the empire is seeking to counter attack and wipe out the rebels. The empire is on the offensive, they don't have anything 'at risk' in the film as they are fighting from a position of strength. The empire vs rebels then takes a back seat to the Han Solo plot, and Luke facing Vader as individuals. ESB doesn't have the same 'destroy the objective' conflict point that EP IV, VI, and VII have. So the concerns in play are different... the empire's position and strength are never in doubt in ESB.

 

[Mickey's Angels]

Not to change the subject, but is anyone else looking forward to seeing Luke become even more powerful as a Force Ghost than he ever was in life? Since I was a kid I’ve been dying to see Obi-Wan’s words about that come to fruition. And then there is the possibility of Dark side Force ghosts. Yikes!!! And what If we get a full on Force ghost battle between Luke, Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin vs. the Emperor, Snoke and whoever else etc all duking it out. Holy cow!!!

Heck yeahhh, I'd like to see that! I thought the same thing about what Obi-Wan said when Yoda's lightning bolt came down. I was like, "Ohh, so that's what a Jedi can do after they die. Holy moly!" I liked that part mainly because it showed us something new, and he wasn't just standing around talking like how they've shown Force ghosts before.

 

[fractal]

I agree. And personally, I would view Rogue One as more of a baseline goal going forward than anything in the current trilogy. IX will be bigger because it ends the original saga but if they can hit Rogue One numbers for everything else I don’t see how they can’t view that as a success.

Really? I think just hitting Rogue One numbers would be a big disappointment, in fact I'm pretty sure the expectations were a lot higher.

 

[bclane]

By your logic.. starkiller base was a big deal to the enemies of the FO... but not so much for the FO. The point is they need to have a lot on the line as well.. otherwise its no biggie for them to lose it. Then it's a tale of a man vs an ant. The ant has everything to lose, the man doesn't care what the ant does. That doesn't work the same... I mean if by taking away starkiller base and the FO just shrugs its shoulders... the rebellion isn't worth chasing around the galaxy with all your might.

In the OT, the Empire is projected to be dominate and almost unlimited in resources. The senate is just a leftover that they are finally dismissing and just getting rid of entirely (cue the Roman tie-backs). The rebellion is against the established, dominate force. So taking out the Death Star is about taking away a new capability that will further the Empire's ability to oppress and subjugate other systems. Taking out the Death Star is to knock the legs out of the empire's ability to project power and their ability to keep systems in line... not so much about 'eliminating the empire'. The death star is their new secret super weapon.. they don't want to lose as it impacts their ability to project and suppress. In V, and VII, the Empire is still assumed to be the dominate force in the galaxy with a ton of resources.

The First Order.. is not in the same spot. At the start of TFA, the First Order is itself painted as an usurper trying to rise up and gain the upper hand against the established republic. They don't have the dominance and omni-presence the Empire does in the OT.

(one of the things I don't understand about TFA is *** the 'rebels' are supposed to be fighting.. is the republic just non-military? Why are they not just the republic vs the FO?.. I actually bought the novelization this week hoping it tries to spell it out more).

So if you are this upstart... and you develop something bigger and more advanced than anything in the known galaxy.. that infers a major commitment This isn't something they just do on the side.. It's their crown jewel. So to lose that.. is like the death star.. it seriously impacts their ability to project power and subjugate other systems. The FO is going to create a power vacuum and then try to move into it. So the starkiller base is a major tool for the FO to break out and take control of the galaxy. Losing that, hurts that plan... so this is the FO's 'skin in the game' so to speak with starkiller base.

In ESB, the empire is striking back after the rebels flee their 'no longer secret' base. ESB is a pursuit film.. the empire is seeking to counter attack and wipe out the rebels. The empire is on the offensive, they don't have anything 'at risk' in the film as they are fighting from a position of strength. The empire vs rebels then takes a back seat to the Han Solo plot, and Luke facing Vader as individuals. ESB doesn't have the same 'destroy the objective' conflict point that EP IV, VI, and VII have. So the concerns in play are different... the empire's position and strength are never in doubt in ESB.

There is some great material out there on the secret rise of the First Order and why the New Republic was less interested in fighting than Leia and her Resistance. Aftermath is a good place to start if you are so inclined. Or you can just find a cheat sheat online as well that summarizes the major events. Very interesting stuff...

 

[Gomer]

By your logic.. starkiller base was a big deal to the enemies of the FO... but not so much for the FO. The point is they need to have a lot on the line as well.. otherwise its no biggie for them to lose it. Then it's a tale of a man vs an ant. The ant has everything to lose, the man doesn't care what the ant does. That doesn't work the same... I mean if by taking away starkiller base and the FO just shrugs its shoulders... the rebellion isn't worth chasing around the galaxy with all your might.

In the OT, the Empire is projected to be dominate and almost unlimited in resources. The senate is just a leftover that they are finally dismissing and just getting rid of entirely (cue the Roman tie-backs). The rebellion is against the established, dominate force. So taking out the Death Star is about taking away a new capability that will further the Empire's ability to oppress and subjugate other systems. Taking out the Death Star is to knock the legs out of the empire's ability to project power and their ability to keep systems in line... not so much about 'eliminating the empire'. The death star is their new secret super weapon.. they don't want to lose as it impacts their ability to project and suppress. In V, and VII, the Empire is still assumed to be the dominate force in the galaxy with a ton of resources.

The First Order.. is not in the same spot. At the start of TFA, the First Order is itself painted as an usurper trying to rise up and gain the upper hand against the established republic. They don't have the dominance and omni-presence the Empire does in the OT.

(one of the things I don't understand about TFA is *** the 'rebels' are supposed to be fighting.. is the republic just non-military? Why are they not just the republic vs the FO?.. I actually bought the novelization this week hoping it tries to spell it out more).

So if you are this upstart... and you develop something bigger and more advanced than anything in the known galaxy.. that infers a major commitment This isn't something they just do on the side.. It's their crown jewel. So to lose that.. is like the death star.. it seriously impacts their ability to project power and subjugate other systems. The FO is going to create a power vacuum and then try to move into it. So the starkiller base is a major tool for the FO to break out and take control of the galaxy. Losing that, hurts that plan... so this is the FO's 'skin in the game' so to speak with starkiller base.

In ESB, the empire is striking back after the rebels flee their 'no longer secret' base. ESB is a pursuit film.. the empire is seeking to counter attack and wipe out the rebels. The empire is on the offensive, they don't have anything 'at risk' in the film as they are fighting from a position of strength. The empire vs rebels then takes a back seat to the Han Solo plot, and Luke facing Vader as individuals. ESB doesn't have the same 'destroy the objective' conflict point that EP IV, VI, and VII have. So the concerns in play are different... the empire's position and strength are never in doubt in ESB.

Again, it doesn't need to be so stark. I didn't say it had no meaning to the First Order. I said it has less meaning to the First Order than to the Resistance.

I do suggest you read some of the outside material if you are already interested. It does help inform the story. Short version is...

Due to political squabbling, the Republic demilitarized during the post-RotJ era in the interest of not allowing another Empire to rise in the ashes of the old one. In doing so, they seemingly went too far and turned a blind eye to a rising threat.

The First Order, built on the remnants of Imperial loyalists and seemingly unending resources from Snoke, rebuilt in the "unknown regions" of the galaxy in secret for many years. Leia got word of this and tried to warn the republic, but they would not heed her warnings. So she, and some of her most loyal compatriots broke off to create the resistance illegally. A small, unfunded military force, whose main goal was to do reconnaissance on the First Order and draw them out so the Republic would be forced to reckon with their existence.

Unfortunately, drawing them out, also resulted in the destruction of the Republic's capital planet and their entire (small) fleet. Leaving the First order as an unchallenged military presence in the galacy, with legacy loyalists spread throughout planets that remained sympathetic to the empire. The Resistance on D'Qar after the destruction of Starkiller was really the only threat left to keep the First Order from retaking control of old empire.

So really, this is a similar setup as Empire. A small rebel force on the run from a much larger one while being the last remaining hope for resistance against this new authoritarian government.

 

[bclane]

Really? I think just hitting Rogue One numbers would be a big disappointment, in fact I'm pretty sure the expectations were a lot higher.

They are definitely much higher for the current trilogy as they should be. I’m talking about all non saga Star Wars Universe movies going forward. I would expect a big jump again whenever X comes out but have no idea where to expect that will land except to say more than Rogue One but less than TFA. Just a guess though.

 

[Mickey's Angels]

So, I just realized why this film picking up immediately at the end of Force Awakens bothers me so much. I knew that it was odd before to me since none of them had done that before, but there was another piece missing and I just realized what it was: All the new tech/advancements that they throw in feel like "Hey, they have this new thing now!" rather than there having been any time for those things to feel like they've been developed/created between films.

- Dreadnaughts
- "Mini Death Star Tech" (Battering Ram Cannon, real creative name btw )
- Hyperspace tracking

These all feel like they came out of nowhere because they essentially did. They weren't in the last installment and because of the timeline between films, they don't feel like they should "realistically" exist within the universe.

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...i/news-story/745cfb61193fb48baf5f10ed3f53d0de

I just did a random Google search, and I found something that might answer people's questions/complaints about the seemingly convenient hyperspace tracking. Apparently, Jyn quickly said that she found files for a new type of hyperspace tracking technology that the Empire was developing. I completely forgot about this scene in R1! When I saw TLJ, I also thought of how convenient it was to mention this new tech just for the sake of the plot, but if this was hinted already in R1, well, alrighty then! Question answered!

Did someone already answer this for you? I tried my best going through the thread again to see if someone showed you the same thing, but I didn't see anything.

 

[fractal]

Again, it doesn't need to be so stark. I didn't say it had no meaning to the First Order. I said it has less meaning to the First Order than to the Resistance.

I do suggest you read some of the outside material if you are already interested. It does help inform the story. Short version is...

Due to political squabbling, the Republic demilitarized during the post-RotJ era in the interest of not allowing another Empire to rise in the ashes of the old one. In doing so, they seemingly went too far and turned a blind eye to a rising threat.

The First Order, built on the remnants of Imperial loyalists and seemingly unending resources from Snoke, rebuilt in the "unknown regions" of the galaxy in secret for many years. Leia got word of this and tried to warn the republic, but they would not heed her warnings. So she, and some of her most loyal compatriots broke off to create the resistance illegally. A small, unfunded military force, whose main goal was to do reconnaissance on the First Order and draw them out so the Republic would be forced to reckon with their existence.

Unfortunately, drawing them out, also resulted in the destruction of the Republic's capital planet and their entire (small) fleet. Leaving the First order as an unchallenged military presence in the galacy, with legacy loyalists spread throughout planets that remained sympathetic to the empire. The Resistance on D'Qar after the destruction of Starkiller was really the only threat left to keep the First Order from retaking control of old empire.

So really, this is a similar setup as Empire. A small rebel force on the run from a much larger one while being the last remaining hope for resistance against this new authoritarian government.

Nice recap. That does help. A little bit of exposition in the beginning of the film would have went a long way; maybe take out Poe's prank phone call.

 

[Gomer]

Nice recap. That does help. A little bit of exposition in the beginning of the film would have went a long way; maybe take out Poe's prank phone call.

I agree. I think this should have been better explained in The Force Awakens to give a better understanding of current galactic politics that led to the rise of the First Order.

There was an entire plotline that was cut from TFA involving Leia's aide who is sent to Hosnian prime to argue with the Republic government for military assistance. You can see the aide in the scene where the planet was blown up. Cut to streamline the pace of the movie, but at the expense of exposition that would probably have benefited all three films in the trilogy.

 

[21stamps]

Nice recap. That does help. A little bit of exposition in the beginning of the film would have went a long way; maybe take out Poe's prank phone call.

I laughed at the phone call.lol. I do like some lighthearted moments in the midst of a crazy amount of deaths.

 

[21stamps]

Here’s my burning question-

Why is @CaptainAmerica not weighing in????
He’s like wdwmagic’s biggest SW nerd

 

[erasure fan1]

I laughed at the phone call.lol. I do like some lighthearted moments in the midst of a crazy amount of deaths.

I laughed too, but then when it turned into a your momma joke, it kind of pushed it too far. It just didn't feel right to me.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think Disney expected it. There is no way that they could think the same amount of merchandise would be sold this year as it was in 2015/16.
I think there are people who didn’t run out and buy all of it in 2015/2016.. those people are slowly building and will still be shopping. Families like mine who went overboard with it all the first year.. now it’s just smaller purchases with more time in between the purchases.

So your proposing Disney's mentality is: "well, we didn't do as good as the last time...but we still have the family and crop for the harvest, pa!"

...by any chance have you ever worked for disney? Or any publically traded company on a 90 days cycle?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The fact that now two movies in we have no explanation whatsoever of why the good guys are down to the size of the A-team and the rest of this galaxy seems to be completely devoid of anything other than casinos and junkyards inhabited by pirates is completely unacceptable...

As I state before: they had Guinness explain the ENTIRETY of the prequels in 130 seconds of jedi...and it was GOOD.

This is a major problem. And trusting Abrams...a guy that's known for anything but "finishing"...to do it is asinine...

WHY?!?! HOW?!?

And this is hollywood...you don't succeed by expecting the audience to read a book on it.

This might be my single biggest complaint. Akbar is second and marble mouth is third.

 

[erasure fan1]

And this is hollywood...you don't succeed by expecting the audience to read a book on it.

This is my biggest concern with the last jedi. Disney seems to want things left unanswered so they can be addressed in comic or book form. I love star wars, it is 100% my favorite franchise. As much as I love it, I can't even read through everything. Nor do I want to.

 

[spacemt354]

The fact that now two movies in we have no explanation whatsoever of why the good guys are down to the size of the A-team and the rest of this galaxy seems to be completely devoid of anything other than casinos and junkyards inhabited by pirates is completely unacceptable...

In the opening crawl of The Force Awakens - it's explained that the Republic supports General Leia and her 'Resistance'. The Republic is located in the Hosnian System.

Later in the film, Starkiller base destroys the Hosnian System

The capital of the New Republic, housing the Galactic Senate and the Starfleet, as well as the surrounding planets, were all destroyed in one shot.

Without a Republic...without support and funding...the Resistance is dwindled down significantly, yet gets an underdog win against Starkiller Base, destroying it, but even that is a small victory as they are now a rogue operation.

And at the beginning of Episode 8, their secret base is discovered by the First Order...and Poe's reckless hero ball...destroys basically their bomber fleet.

Leaving them with the large ship (forget the name of it) they are using throughout The Last Jedi to escape the First Order.... until Holdo rams it through the Destroyer at lightspeed...and the remaining Resistance band escapes to Crait...and is essentially dwindled down to only the people remaining on the Millennium Falcon at the end of the film.