Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

4) DJ was messy. I've heard that's of the biggest sequences axed - the three of them on Snoke's ship. Hard to say but I think I'd have preferred the horse escape sequence axed instead first of all.

Really?? Ugh.. I knew it. I felt like that part on Snoke's ship was a little rushed. Totally agree about the horse chase. Those animals were cool, but it wasn't as necessary. Seeing Rose and the kids free them from the racetrack would have been enough.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Actually, that's thought to be a thing going for it. The Force Awakens had Christmas day on a Friday and Rogue One on a Sunday.

Deadline:


Moreover it's a bit apples to oranges as the week following the release was a Holiday for TFA and it's week 2/3 that are more the school holidays for TLJ. I'd really say we can't make solid, solid conclusion until closer to new years and even then after the 4th weekend.

Well, just my opinion would be friday would be the best of the 3 because there would be more free time on Saturday and Sunday...

Sunday would be tough..my feeling is Monday is tougher. Tons of planned activities 12/23-12/25...and I would guess more would jump back to work on Tuesday 12/26 than would if the holiday fell in other points of the week?
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Original Poster
i) Luke totally interacts with Leia as if he were there.. holding her hand, kissing her, and handing her a physical object (the dice) - This seems pretty far fetched compared to the idea he's just a projection

Speculation: Luke and Leia already had a Force link (before Luke closed himself off from the Force). And so, she interacted with him more... realistically? More with compatible Force on Force mutual interaction? If that's the case, the Leia probably realized he really wasn't there which would explain why she let Luke be a distraction rather than linger to find out what happened or if she could help. It would also explain why the dice had a bit more reality being a Force construct being fed by two Force users.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Well, just my opinion would be friday would be the best of the 3 because there would be more free time on Saturday and Sunday...

Sunday would be tough..my feeling is Monday is tougher. Tons of planned activities 12/23-12/25...and I would guess more would jump back to work on Tuesday 12/26 than would if the holiday fell in other points of the week?

They are basing this on historical movie attendance trends depending on the placement of the holiday in the day of the week. Last minute shopping will compound with the weekend, but generally there is more free time pre-holiday. The holiday itself is always a sucky day and having it on a generally low attendance day like Monday is better.

Granted SW has bucked the December trends, but I don't think the data supports this being a worse configuration.

Tuesday/Wednesday I think would be the most ideal placement.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
/these themes had much more significant meaning at the end when Rose told Finn that they fight to protect the things they love, not just to destroy the things they hate.

Great post.

I'll just point out that this one moment doesn't make sense in hindsight. Finn WAS fighting, and sacrificing, to protect those he loved. Rose kinda screwed everyone over. Had Luke not showed up, she would have doomed them all.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
i love the people that like it saying the people that didn't like it need to accept someone who has a different opinion, which is basically a backhanded way of saying "admit that you are wrong".

Nonsense. You've repeatedly said that people who like the movie are in denial or just saying they like the movie out of obligation.

THAT is you saying people are wrong.

I have no problem if people didn't like the movie, but I did. It's just an opinion. There's no definitive right or wrong answer as to how good the movie is.
 
Great post.

I'll just point out that this one moment doesn't make sense in hindsight. Finn WAS fighting, and sacrificing, to protect those he loved. Rose kinda screwed everyone over. Had Luke not showed up, she would have doomed them all.

Lol! Exactly. Even Finn was like, "WTH Rose?" I remember bringing it up with my family the way you said it, and we were scratching our heads with that one for a while.

The only thing we could think of is maybe Rose and everyone else knew that they were already doomed. So, instead of letting Finn kill himself, she'd rather die by his side instead of alone. Or maybe she felt like it'd be better for him to go and run away and live to fight another day, so she saved him as her last act of love.

Also, we don't know if that piece of junk ski thing would have done anything against that giant laser cannon. :hilarious:
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I'm not certainly, but he was listening when they were communicating with Poe. So, I thought that DJ was just using the information he heard during those conversations.

There was no "codes" needed to see the transport ships -- the Resistance folks specifically said that the strategy would work because the First Order wouldn't be scanning for smaller ships. So DJ could have simply told them "scan for smaller transport ships".

Nope. - they specifically talk about cloaking and "codes" as what CJ gives them
 

bclane

Well-Known Member
This is a frequent refrain...the "empire was hated too"...

This movie in no way has the consistency of narrative that empire did. What exactly is unexplained in empire of note?

Nothing or consequence as opposed to the laundry list of unnecessary, dead ends and plot holes in this movie.

I just have to reject that...convincing yourself that the criticism parallels empire is your subconscious trying to convince itself that you don't see a lot of the criticism points yourself...basic psychology.
I never said that ESB was hated. Where did you get that from? And my subconscious is not trying to convince itself of anything of the sort. Please resist the urge to set up a straw man.

ESB is my favorite movie of all time and most fans feel the same way. But that doesn’t change the fact that after watching ESB, some people had issues with how it related to Star Wars that were often discussed and debated back in the day and some of these criticisms mirror the same criticisms being leveled against TLJ today. For example, some people took issue with how much training Luke had to use the Force before facing Vader and this stems from time debates revolving around how long Luke was actually on Dagobah training with Yoda. Clearly, after you subtract the amount of time it took Luke and R2 to travel there and then to Bespin afterwards, you don’t have a ton of time for training since the sum of all of that took the same amount of time it took for Han to play hide and seek with the Empire in the asteroid field and then make his journey to Bespin and then chill in Cloud City for a few days. There is no way of knowing exactly how long that took, but most people agree that it was between a few days to a few weeks at most and that includes travel time. I think there was a lego movie or game that says it was a couple weeks and there have been other EU stuff that dealt more with Luke’s training outside of the movies and of course there have been countless debates amongst fans over the years about this. Anyway, the basic criticism about ESB was that it didn’t give enough time to get Luke ready to face Vader. Sound familiar? But look, in Star Wars, Luke was able to finally beat the training remote, with the blast shield down on his helmet no less, and all it took was a few choice words from Obi-Wan to help Luke to use the Force to see without using his eyes and to defeat the remote that had previously bested him every time. Stuff can happen fast... Also, one must remember that much of Yoda’s teaching (shown in ESB) was for Luke to unlearn what he had learned vs learning actual combat skills. Rey apparently didn’t have as much to unlearn and we don’t even know how many days she spent with Luke or how much she trained (if at all) on the Falcon ride to Ahch-To. All we know is that her raw power terrified Luke, that the Force itself called to her through Luke’s lightsabre, and that she seems to have a very special purpose in the universe She is apparently a Force prodigy that operates primarily on an instinctual level right now and that is fine by me.

Also, people accused Lucas of just changing stuff up in ESB to keep it interesting. For example, think of all the ways the Force was used in Star Wars. Now think of all the new ways it was used in ESB. For example, Vader could now use the Force to absorb blaster fire, The Force could now lift an X-Wing out of the swamp and people could now sort of communicate with each other through the Force (Luke and Vader, Luke and Leia). People also liked to pick on some of the twists like suddenly Darth Vader has a master that he bows down to? Darth Vader is now Luke’s Dad? Luke isn’t the only Skywalker? There’s more but you get the idea. Throw in the changes and corresponding criticisms that came in with ROTJ and then again with prequels and you can clearly see that the kind of arguments being leveled against TLJ are nothing new really.

The bottom line for me is that people have differing opinions about the movie and that is fine and nothing new. TLJ is controversial in a lot of ways but the changes work for some and not for others. To each their own.
 
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Gomer

Well-Known Member
To be fair...that's going both directions. We are convincing people not to like it too...

The key difference from my perspective is that we are blasting the plotholes, discontinuity, and character choices...

The other side is giving us the aggregate critic score (critics all loved the English patient) and box office receipts.

Who the hell said the movie going public is intelligent? Not for a second. But let's see how the box office does...they are gonna suffer this weekend due to 12/25 being after the weekend and then by the time normal life settles back in...it's gonna be weekend 4...

I will be interested to see if the movie going public makes a solid effort for repeat viewing.

I wonder what Disney's expectations are? Wonder what they'll get?
While I disagree that there were many plot holes, discontinuities, or poor character choices (I haven't been tied to this thread all week, so I'm not sure what exactly the list is at this point) people should also remember that what one values in a movie is different than the next person.

To me, the modern internet obsession with plot holes is the most damaging thing that's happened to film criticism in recent memory. Yes, ideally a movie should have a plot that follows internal logic, but if you give me a movie with expert acting, dialogue, thematic intelligence, character depth, and that is moving emotionally, I will gladly overlook a couple of plot holes because those don't matter as much to me.

For me, character, writing, and theme are primary, plot secondary. Others may vary (and there is no correct preference). Although I still stand by my assertion that there weren't many plot holes. Plot directions that someone doesn't agree with maybe. Dismissal of a presented or implied logic because it is found to be unappealing, absolutely. But not many true holes.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
While I disagree that there were many plot holes, discontinuities, or poor character choices (I haven't been tied to this thread all week, so I'm not sure what exactly the list is at this point) people should also remember that what one values in a movie is different than the next person.

To me, the modern internet obsession with plot holes is the most damaging thing that's happened to film criticism in recent memory. Yes, ideally a movie should have a plot that follows internal logic, but if you give me a movie with expert acting, dialogue, thematic intelligence, character depth, and that is moving emotionally, I will gladly overlook a couple of plot holes because those don't matter as much to me.

For me, character, writing, and theme are primary, plot secondary. Others may vary (and there is no correct preference). Although I still stand by my assertion that there weren't many plot holes. Plot directions that someone doesn't agree with maybe. Dismissal of a presented or implied logic because it is found to be unappealing, absolutely. But not many true holes.

My prediction is that there's no way this movie holds interest over the longterm...which is something that both Disney and lucasfilm has based their success on/covets. Look at the legs that the little mermaid, beauty and the beast and the original trilogy have shown? I would submit that it's the foundation of the whole IP empire, no pun intended.

But we'll see...I may be wrong. But I'm usually not when it comes to perception. I tend to read the tea leaves pretty close when it comes to disney and particularly wdw....you'll find.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I never said that ESB was hated. Where did you get that from? And my subconscious is not trying to convince itself of anything of the sort. Please resist the urge to set up a straw man.

ESB is my favorite movie of all time and most fans feel the same way. But that doesn’t change the fact that after watching ESB, some people had issues with how it related to Star Wars that were often discussed and debated back in the day and some of these criticisms mirror the same criticisms being leveled against TLJ today. For example, some people took issue with how much training Luke had to use the Force before facing Vader and this stems from time debates revolving around how long Luke was actually on Dagobah training with Yoda. Clearly, after you subtract the amount of time it took Luke and R2 to travel there and then to Bespin afterwards, you don’t have a ton of time for training since the sum of all of that took the same amount of time it took for Han to play hide and seek with the Empire in the asteroid field and then make his journey to Bespin and then chill in Cloud City for a few days. There is no way of knowing exactly how long that took, but most people agree that it was between a few days to a few weeks at most and that includes travel time. I think there was a lego movie or game that says it was a couple weeks and there have been other EU stuff that dealt more with Luke’s training outside of the movies and of course there have been countless debates amongst fans over the years about this. Anyway, the basic criticism about ESB was that it didn’t give enough time to get Luke ready to face Vader. Sound familiar? But look, in Star Wars, Luke was able to finally beat the training remote, with the blast shield down on his helmet no less, and all it took was a few choice words from Obi-Wan to help Luke to use the Force to see without using his eyes and to defeat the remote that had previously bested him every time. Stuff can happen fast... Also, one must remember that much of Yoda’s teaching (shown in ESB) was for Luke to unlearn what he had learned vs learning actual combat skills. Rey apparently didn’t have as much to unlearn and we don’t even know how many days she spent with Luke or how much she trained (if at all) on the Falcon ride to Ahch-To. All we know is that her raw power terrified Luke, that the Force itself called to her through Luke’s light Sabre, and that she seems to have a very special purpose in the universe She is apparently a Force prodigy that operates primarily on an instinctual level right now and that is fine by me.

Also, people accused Lucas of just changing stuff up in ESB to keep it interesting. For example, think of all the ways the Force was used in Star Wars. Now think of all the new ways it was used in ESB. For example, Vader could now use the Force to absorb blaster fire, The Force could now lift an X-Wing out of the swamp and people could now sort of communicate with each other through the Force (Luke and Vader, Luke and Leia). People also liked to pick on some of the twists like suddenly Darth Vader has a master that he bows down to? Darth Vader is now Luke’s Dad? Luke isn’t the only Skywalker? There’s more but you get the idea. Throw in the changes and corresponding criticisms that came in with ROTJ and then again with prequels and you can clearly see that the kind of arguments being leveled against TLJ are nothing new really.

The bottom line for me is that people have differing opinions about the movie and that is fine and nothing new. TLJ is controversial in a lot of ways but the changes work for some and not for others. To each their own.

My instincts are that any empire comparison is a reach...empire is like fine wine (an analogy...not a literal dramatic interpretation) that was better with age and comprising to other crap in the movies...

...this movie is more Boone's Farm.

I'll see it again and maybe soften a little on it. But I have no reason to not trust my first instincts on a Star Wars movie...they've been correct everytime. This is emotional repsone...not rocket science.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
My prediction is that there's no way this movie holds interest over the longterm...which is something that both Disney and lucasfilm has based their success on/covets. Look at the legs that the little mermaid, beauty and the beast and the original trilogy have shown? I would submit that it's the foundation of the whole IP empire, no pun intended.

But we'll see...I may be wrong. But I'm usually not when it comes to perception. I tend to read the tea leaves pretty close when it comes to disney and particularly wdw....you'll find.
That is a possibility. I hope you are wrong, but it is plausible.

But, when I'm not here I write for a Star wars site. Over there, with the hardest of the hardcore, the people who have seemingly been the most upset about the direction of this movie, we've seen an unscientific 80/20 split on like to dislike. Even if comments come in at 50/50, our poll responses show otherwise.

In the twenty+ people or so I have spoken to who are either casual fans or non-fans all but one have loved the movie, and that last person gave a "meh...it was alright".

My 14 and 7 year old haven't stopped talking about the movie all week. Porgs are the top of the list desire in my 7 year olds class this year for Christmas presents.

This is obviously all anecdotal. But my point is, people have gotten bogged down in one very loud issue due to a very angry subset of fans that did not like what they saw. But many new fans have been created. I've talked to lots of people who were on the fence for TFA and Rogue One, but are fully on board with TLJ.

In the end, ing off some legacy fans, most of which (much like the prequels) will talk a big talk but come back next time regardless, isn't going to have as much of an impact as the current volume of complaints would imply.

In the end, like I said above. I, and many like me, don't see the gaping plotholes, tonal issues, or egregious character flaws that those who hate it do.

Where you might see plotholes, I see reasoning or purposeful omission.
Where you might see tonal issues, I see consistency of theme..
Where you might see poor character choices, I see a welcome and dynamic change.

Neither is right or wrong as art is subjective.

But, to assume that because we see it one way, that will be its lasting legacy is presumptuous. We are, by the nature of this message board, the opinionated few. People who post their opinions on message boards (myself included) generally have strong opinions that we want to share with anyone who will read them. We want to impact the online narrative related to an event, or movie, or political issue. We are the extreme. But in the end, we make up a very small portion of the overall population. And our opinions, although strong and often well informed, are mostly meaningless in the larger equation.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
That is a possibility. I hope you are wrong, but it is plausible.

But, when I'm not here I write for a Star wars site. Over there, with the hardest of the hardcore, the people who have seemingly been the most upset about the direction of this movie, we've seen an unscientific 80/20 split on like to dislike. Even if comments come in at 50/50, our poll responses show otherwise.

In the twenty+ people or so I have spoken to who are either casual fans or non-fans all but one have loved the movie, and that last person gave a "meh...it was alright".

My 14 and 7 year old haven't stopped talking about the movie all week. Porgs are the top of the list desire in my 7 year olds class this year for Christmas presents.

This is obviously all anecdotal. But my point is, people have gotten bogged down in one very loud issue due to a very angry subset of fans that did not like what they saw. But many new fans have been created. I've talked to lots of people who were on the fence for TFA and Rogue One, but are fully on board with TLJ.

In the end, ****ing off some legacy fans, most of which (much like the prequels) will talk a big talk but come back next time regardless, isn't going to have as much of an impact as the current volume of complaints would imply.

In the end, like I said above. I, and many like me, don't see the gaping plotholes, tonal issues, or egregious character flaws that those who hate it do.

Where you might see plotholes, I see reasoning or purposeful omission.
Where you might see tonal issues, I see consistency of theme..
Where you might see poor character choices, I see a welcome and dynamic change.

Neither is right or wrong as art is subjective.

But, to assume that because we see it one way, that will be its lasting legacy is presumptuous. We are, by the nature of this message board, the opinionated few. People who post their opinions on message boards (myself included) generally have strong opinions that we want to share with anyone who will read them. We want to impact the online narrative related to an event, or movie, or political issue. We are the extreme. But in the end, we make up a very small portion of the overall population. And our opinions, although strong and often well informed, are mostly meaningless in the larger equation.

Well...I trust in the fact that Star Wars really has never had any kind of parallel as far as fandom and franchise...it really hasn't. A lot of that is cultural and technological change that has occurred concurrently. But still...I think it's tough to really trust superficial or "casual" fan takes as to its longterm business prospects. Or children for that matter...the most bogus cover story ever is Lucas "it's only for kids!!!"

That isn't what was made. Sorry.

The prequels are still "successful"...but they are Also still embarrassing crap...nothing has really changed that since first showing.
 

fractal

Well-Known Member
Nonsense. You've repeatedly said that people who like the movie are in denial or just saying they like the movie out of obligation.

THAT is you saying people are wrong.

I have no problem if people didn't like the movie, but I did. It's just an opinion. There's no definitive right or wrong answer as to how good the movie is.

What's nonsense is how much of an apologist you are for this movie. I was referring to the article posted but I know how much you like to misquote.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Now...this is significant...

The drop in daily gross is of concern...the drop in merchandise is huge.

I don't know what the current number guess is...but I remember seeing in 2014 or so that Star Wars had generated something like $45 billion in licensed product over its history...not adjusted for inflation that's staggering.

Mel brooks made a movie about it...and there's is always some truth in humor.

I'm really curious now to see where the box office gross goes...this is an indication it could fall off a cliff. I was surprised at the drop off of from TFA to R1...I didn't think that was warranted based on quality...

Has disney already strangled the goose? And how will they respond? That could affect parks.

Bob iger is one of the most successful awful CEOs in history - my opinion - blindly successful.

Not quite jack Welch...but in the ballpark.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Well...I trust in the fact that Star Wars really has never had any kind of parallel as far as fandom and franchise...it really hasn't. A lot of that is cultural and technological change that has occurred concurrently. But still...I think it's tough to really trust superficial or "casual" fan takes as to its longterm business prospects. Or children for that matter...the most bogus cover story ever is Lucas "it's only for kids!!!"

That isn't what was made. Sorry.

The prequels are still "successful"...but they are Also still embarrassing crap...nothing has really changed that since first showing.
I didn’t say kids liking makes it successful.

What I said was in my personal experience, across all segments, I see general positive consensus that matches critics and cinemascore ratings.

I have only thus far met significant hate in social media comments. That leads me to believe, much like a talk radio caller, what we see here is a vocal extreme that is divided about 50/50.

But it is just as disingenuous to compare this to the prequels as it is to say just because esb was hated then liked, TLJ will as well.

The difference between now and the prequels is that this time it is the critics in favor and a segment of hard core fans against. Whereas prequels were loathed by critics and defended by the Star Wars can do no wrong crowd.

Just based on my personal preference I’d imagine Over time those in the middle will lean to the critics rather than fanboys. As past history shows critics to have better taste than fans.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I didn’t say kids liking makes it successful.

What I said was in my personal experience, across all segments, I see general positive consensus that matches critics and cinemascore ratings.

I have only thus far met significant hate in social media comments. That leads me to believe, much like a talk radio caller, what we see here is a vocal extreme that is divided about 50/50.

But it is just as disingenuous to compare this to the prequels as it is to say just because esb was hated then liked, TLJ will as well.

The difference between now and the prequels is that this time it is the critics in favor and a segment of hard core fans against. Whereas prequels were loathed by critics and defended by the Star Wars can do no wrong crowd.

Just based on my personal preference I’d imagine Over time those in the middle will lean to the critics rather than fanboys. As past history shows critics to have better taste than fans.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not accusing you of any of the things that you're defending yourself on...just merely saying there is a culture of smoke screens that has grown around Star Wars...both sides. It's so unfortunate. Responsible stewardship would have prevented it all. I was very complimentary of Disney from purchase till 2016 or so...but they are sliding toward later Lucas in my opinion now. Exploitation without concern for longevity.

But as far the talk radio analogy...there's a thing about they've found in the bigger markets such as where I live. Even though the malcontents call...there is a correlation/predictive quality to what they gripe about. Not 100% but a source of concern for Kathy Kennedy as she speeds the train into a turn...
 

bclane

Well-Known Member
Well...I trust in the fact that Star Wars really has never had any kind of parallel as far as fandom and franchise...it really hasn't. A lot of that is cultural and technological change that has occurred concurrently. But still...I think it's tough to really trust superficial or "casual" fan takes as to its longterm business prospects. Or children for that matter...the most bogus cover story ever is Lucas "it's only for kids!!!"

That isn't what was made. Sorry.

The prequels are still "successful"...but they are Also still embarrassing crap...nothing has really changed that since first showing.
Actually the prequels are gaining in popularity as time goes by even amongst some hardcore fans who initially hated them. Imo they are inferior to both the OT and the new movies, but when you look at how much they added to the mythology and if you can ignore the bad stuff for a second (midichlorians, JarJar, questionable acting, etc) you find that there is some pretty freaking awesome stuff to be found in there as well.
 

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