Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[Gomer]

But as far the talk radio analogy...there's a thing about they've found in the bigger markets such as where I live. Even though the malcontents call...there is a correlation/predictive quality to what they gripe about. Not 100% but a source of concern for Kathy Kennedy as she speeds the train into a turn...

Its an interesting point, but begs the question is it predictive because they are right, or because they have a captive, sympathetic audience, whose opinions are radicalized through listening to them.

The reason I don't think that would likely apply here, is because there is a clear split within the subculture.

You are clearly a fan. I am most definitely a hardcore fan, yet we are split on our opinions. In all fan circles (and I float around them quite a bit) there is a strong back and forth, with neither side giving much.

There is a strong dislike for this movie with some fans that I respect, yet disagree with. As soon as I walked out of my first viewing, my buddy asked me what I thought. I said "Man, some fans are going to HATE this movie. It will spur debates for decades. And I love the movie for doing that"

Its a challenging movie that pushes strongly in one direction for one set of fans. But it is not safe. It is not The Force Awakens, trying to use nostalgia to pull in all fans. It's a movie with artistic vision that you can love or hate, but at least its there. Very few people will be ambivalent towards this movie. It makes it very difficult to say..."meh".

I'm not a fan of the prequels. But in many ways I respect TPM more than The Force Awakens, Revenge of the Sith or Rogue one, because it was an ambitious movie full of uncompromising vision. Of course, it has many flaws, and suffers because of them. But it was the opposite of fan service.

TLJ does something similar, but I think to better effect. It is ambitious, and new, and challenging in the ways TPM was, while also bringing some of the best acting and cinematography in the series, very strong dialogue, and some great action sequences.

But I understand that it is off putting for many. And we'll likely never agree. But I'd rather have a TPM or a TLJ over a Rogue One or Revenge of the Sith any day. Even if next time I'm on your side and you're on mine and i find myself hating it. Because I'd rather see them trying something ambitious and fail for my tastes, then just send us a paint by numbers blockbuster.

I've always thought Star Wars was better than that. Better than your typical run of the mill blockbuster, specifically because of that ambition. And I hope they don't lose that in the wake of some fan criticism.

 

[tk924]

Good to see that everyone can give their opinions without this going off the rails.

Look, I feel the way this movie was set up, starting with the red SW logo and the major misdirection in trailers, let me to believe that things were going in a different, darker direction. That just did not happen. Do i hate the movie? No. It's Star Wars. But that doesn't mean I love it either.
It is ok that answers or explanations are not provided. What that means to me is the viewer gets to decide. I know I have already decided on a number of things that I think are going on. Now the ball is in JJ's hand to either explain or dismiss them or maybe not even address them at all. Either way, I have an answer.

 

[bclane]

My instincts are that any empire comparison is a reach...empire is like fine wine (an analogy...not a literal dramatic interpretation) that was better with age and comprising to other crap in the movies...

...this movie is more Boone's Farm.

I'll see it again and maybe soften a little on it. But I have no reason to not trust my first instincts on a Star Wars movie...they've been correct everytime. This is emotional repsone...not rocket science.

I wasn’t comparing ESB TO TLJ. I was comparing the criticisms against ESB TO TLJ. Imo, no movie will ever be able to top ESB for me personally as it hit in 1980 when I was around 10.5/11 years old. As a follow up to Star Wars it was incredibly important to my childhood and there is no way to go back and redo/undo that experience. I wore out mutiple VHS tapes of those movies and there were many days when as soon as one finished i’d play the other until it would finish and then back and forth repeatedly between them until my parents made me go to sleep. Occasionally I’d toss in ROTJ but not everyday. Just my childhood experience... Due to it’s place in my actual childhood, ESB will live on in my mind as the greatest movie experience of all time... But I loved TLJ. My kiddos, both teenagers, and true Star Wars geeks themselves, feel the same way about it as does everyone of my friends and family. But not one of us has said it’s as good as ESB.

 

[LukeS7]

So, I just realized why this film picking up immediately at the end of Force Awakens bothers me so much. I knew that it was odd before to me since none of them had done that before, but there was another piece missing and I just realized what it was: All the new tech/advancements that they throw in feel like "Hey, they have this new thing now!" rather than there having been any time for those things to feel like they've been developed/created between films.

- Dreadnaughts
- "Mini Death Star Tech" (Battering Ram Cannon, real creative name btw )
- Hyperspace tracking

These all feel like they came out of nowhere because they essentially did. They weren't in the last installment and because of the timeline between films, they don't feel like they should "realistically" exist within the universe.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

What's nonsense is how much of an apologist you are for this movie. I was referring to the article posted but I know how much you like to misquote.

Nonsense, and you're doing it again. You can't accept that someone likes the movie more than you did, so any praise is labelled as being an "apologist".

I've never said it's a perfect movie. Some things work, some don't.

Your opinion is not the definitive one. Get over yourself.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Now...this is significant...

The drop in daily gross is of concern...the drop in merchandise is huge.

I don't know what the current number guess is...but I remember seeing in 2014 or so that Star Wars had generated something like $45 billion in licensed product over its history...not adjusted for inflation that's staggering.

Mel brooks made a movie about it...and there's is always some truth in humor.

I'm really curious now to see where the box office gross goes...this is an indication it could fall off a cliff. I was surprised at the drop off of from TFA to R1...I didn't think that was warranted based on quality...

Has disney already strangled the goose? And how will they respond? That could affect parks.

Bob iger is one of the most successful awful CEOs in history - my opinion - blindly successful.

Not quite jack Welch...but in the ballpark.

This movie made back it's money within days of opening. It probably turned a profit on pre-sales alone.

The sky isn't falling. You can be disappointed in the movie without needing to come up with a narrative that the Star Wars franchised has died overnight.

 

[Gomer]

So, I just realized why this film picking up immediately at the end of Force Awakens bothers me so much. I knew that it was odd before to me since none of them had done that before, but there was another piece missing and I just realized what it was: All the new tech/advancements that they throw in feel like "Hey, they have this new thing now!" rather than there having been any time for those things to feel like they've been developed/created between films.

- Dreadnaughts
- "Mini Death Star Tech" (Battering Ram Cannon, real creative name btw )
- Hyperspace tracking

These all feel like they came out of nowhere because they essentially did. They weren't in the last installment and because of the timeline between films, they don't feel like they should "realistically" exist within the universe.

I see your point somewhat, but technically none of those things would have been useful in TFA. The First Order never knew the location of the Rebels, so you never saw their siege weaponry or tracking abilities.

In TFA the resistance went to the FO. In TLJ the FO went to the Resistance.

 

[tk924]

So, I just realized why this film picking up immediately at the end of Force Awakens bothers me so much. I knew that it was odd before to me since none of them had done that before, but there was another piece missing and I just realized what it was: All the new tech/advancements that they throw in feel like "Hey, they have this new thing now!" rather than there having been any time for those things to feel like they've been developed/created between films.

- Dreadnaughts
- "Mini Death Star Tech" (Battering Ram Cannon, real creative name btw )
- Hyperspace tracking

These all feel like they came out of nowhere because they essentially did. They weren't in the last installment and because of the timeline between films, they don't feel like they should "realistically" exist within the universe.

I agree with all those. Even the dang Stormtroopers were unnecessarily changed. Yeah, I know. I know. Gotta sell more toys.

Although hyperspace tracking was actually brought up in Rogue One.


.

 

[LukeS7]

I see your point somewhat, but technically none of those things would have been useful in TFA. The First Order never knew the location of the Rebels, so you never saw their siege weaponry or tracking abilities.

In TFA the resistance went to the FO. In TLJ the FO went to the Resistance.

Convenient they didn't keep any of their siege weapons on Starkiller Base

 

[LukeS7]

I agree with all those. Even the dang Stormtroopers were unnecessarily changed. Yeah, I know. I know. Gotta sell more toys.

Although hyperspace tracking was actually brought up in Rogue One.

Gotta sell those "new" stormtrooper toys somehow

 

[21stamps]

I agree with all those. Even the dang Stormtroopers were unnecessarily changed. Yeah, I know. I know. Gotta sell more toys.

Although hyperspace tracking was actually brought up in Rogue One.


.

Ha! Thanks for linking the article. I’ve watched Rogue One 3-4 times and didn’t even think of that. In one ear and out the other..

As for toys.. I was happy and sad at seeing C3PO back to normal. I’m still scarred from the hunt for the “new” 3.75” figure in 2015. Too many hours spent online, on the phone, and in stores looking for one.

 

[Gomer]

Convenient they didn't keep any of their siege weapons on Starkiller Base

Who says they didn't? But there's no reason the troops would have used that death star canon in that battle. And no army would store their entire weapons cache in one place.

Starkiller wasn't the First Order's headquarters. It was just a weapon. The Supremacy is the central location of the First Order according to the Visual Dictionary. Snoke keeps their "capital" mobile so as to avoid being easily wiped out had the Republic ever decided to attack before his plan for the first strike from Starkiller was realized.

 

[LukeS7]

This movie made back it's money within days of opening. It probably turned a profit on pre-sales alone.

The sky isn't falling. You can be disappointed in the movie without needing to come up with a narrative that the Star Wars franchised has died overnight.

They just made their money back. Budget was $200 million, figure advertising was around half that, so total cost was $300 million, they've made ~$536 million worldwide, but their cut of that is only 65%, so that's $348 million.Though in some cases that percentage might be smaller potentially and advertising could be higher than that estimate

 

[tk924]

This movie made back it's money within days of opening. It probably turned a profit on pre-sales alone.

Not quite. The estimated gross worldwide for the film to break even is around $800 million. As of this post, I think it's shy of $600mil world wide.

 

[LukeS7]

Who says they didn't? But there's no reason the troops would have used that death star canon in that battle. And no army would store their entire weapons cache in one place.

Starkiller wasn't the First Order's headquarters. It was just a weapon. The Supremacy is the central location of the First Order according to the Visual Dictionary. Snoke keeps their "capital" mobile so as to avoid being easily wiped out had the Republic ever decided to attack before his plan for the first strike from Starkiller was realized.

It'd be real nice if they'd actually have mentioned that even in passing in the film, but as it stands, Force Awakens kinda made that feel like their headquarters and that blowing that up was a major, crippling thing. Then in Last Jedi the First Order seems to be totally fine

 

[fractal]

This movie made back it's money within days of opening. It probably turned a profit on pre-sales alone.

The sky isn't falling. You can be disappointed in the movie without needing to come up with a narrative that the Star Wars franchised has died overnight.

Actually, total production costs will be somewhere around $400-500 million when it's all said and done.

 

[LukeS7]

Actually, total production costs will be somewhere around $400-500 million when it's all said and done.

In that case, they're still over $50-$150 million from profit

 

[LukeS7]

Side-note, I think the only 2 things I've ever seen make a profit before they released were Grand Theft Auto V and Teslas.

 

[Gomer]

It'd be real nice if they'd actually have mentioned that even in passing in the film, but as it stands, Force Awakens kinda made that feel like their headquarters and that blowing that up was a major, crippling thing. Then in Last Jedi the First Order seems to be totally fine

As I said much earlier in this thread. There's a valid debate to be had over how much emphasis Star Wars puts on needing information outside of the films to understand internal logic. But it has been the model for these films since the days of the OT. Whether it was knowing the Emperor's name from his action figure, knowing why Biker Scouts suddenly appeared on Endor when they could have been really helpful on Hoth. Why can R2D2 fly in the PT but not the OT. (This was explained on a faux in universe news site, only for the superfans). Its all the same.

There's a certain level of acceptance that you need to either overlook those things, or accept that you need to look elsewhere for those explanations. But it is not new to this movie or the new era.

We pick and chose where it bothers us and where it doesn't.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Regardless of final production costs and box office gross necessary to break even, this movie is going to be highly profitable.

There's just this disgruntled portion of the fan base right now who need to channel their disappointment, and grasp at straws to support their view that the movie will fail due to being so terrible, and have an irrational *need* to find proof that everyone will eventually agree with them.