Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[Mickey's Angels]

You had me at nerd powers activate...

Great post! And yes, Empire had it’s controversies back in the day but it is now universally loved (for the most part) and remains my favorite movie of all time. I got to see it opening night and have loved it ever since.

Uh! I'm jealous. I would've loved to have been there opening night for that movie. Were people cosplaying back then like they do now? Tell me you have pictures or video or something... I missed out on the prequels since I was just a teenager with no money back then, but now I'm really committed with these new movies and spin-offs. The crowds are so much more fun and energetic on opening nights! When I went to see TLJ the first time, everyone around me was so animated and excited when all of the awesome things happened. I remember how the whole theater started cheering and clapping when the camera snapped over to Luke meditating over the rock after the confrontation. It was the most fun I've had at a Star Wars movie.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This idea that somehow this movie will be looked at like empire is...

...well...don't bet the farm

 

[bclane]

Uh! I'm jealous. I would've loved to have been there opening night for that movie. Were people cosplaying back then like they do now? Tell me you have pictures or video or something... I missed out on the prequels since I was just a teenager with no money back then, but now I'm really committed with these new movies and spin-offs. The crowds are so much more fun and energetic on opening nights! When I went to see TLJ the first time, everyone around me was so animated and excited when all of the awesome things happened. I remember how the whole theater started cheering and clapping when the camera snapped over to Luke meditating over the rock after the confrontation. It was the most fun I've had at a Star Wars movie.

It was a great moment in time for me that’s for sure. I was just a middle school kid at the time but I remember seeing lots of people dressed up as characters at the theatre that night. What I don’t know is if they were hired actors or fans cosplaying. I remember that ESB, like all Star Wars movies have, became the only thing I could think and talk about for months afterword and it was the same for many of my friends.

And yeah, opening night Star Wars crowds are the best. It kills me that I didn’t get to go to TLJ opening night but I still had a really great crowd on Sunday. Everyone was clapping and cheering. So much fun!

 

[bclane]

This idea that somehow this movie will be looked at like empire is...

...well...don't bet the farm

It’s not as good as Empire imo, but some of the same criticisms being leveled against TLJ by fans are the exact same criticisms I remember hearing discussed with regards to ESB.

 

[Mickey's Angels]

And yeah, opening night Star Wars crowds are the best. It kills me that I didn’t get to go to TLJ opening night but I still had a really great crowd on Sunday. Everyone was clapping and cheering. So much fun!

Oh no! Ah well, I'm glad you ended up with a good crowd to see it with!

This idea that somehow this movie will be looked at like empire is...

...well...don't bet the farm

It’s not as good as Empire imo, but some of the same criticisms being leveled against TLJ by fans are the exact same criticisms I remember hearing discussed with regards to ESB.

Ya, what @bclane said. It's definitely not as good as ESB. I was just talking about how maybe the people will see the movie in a different light when the outrage settles down a bit after some time. I personally thought TLJ was the most thought-provoking since ESB, though, when compared to the prequels, R1, TFA, and the TV shows.

 

[BrianLo]

I think a very passionate, very vocal subset of fans (yes, you are all fans, you've been debating this film on a message board for days) vehemently dislike this movie. RT is much more likely to capture that 'you'. While 90 odd percentage of critics 'liked' the movie and general audiences liked the movie enough to average out to very good Post-track and Cinemascores - RT or IMDB is much more likely to capture the fan. Don't confuse RT with general audiences though, that's Post-track and Cinemascore.

Also don't confuse RT user scores with being scientific in the least. It is not an equal opportunity poll, you are much more likely to vote for something only if you really, really liked it (superfan) or really, really disliked it and want your opinion to be heard.



Anyways I feel the Collider panel does a good job at addressing all this drama, not just a single sweaty nerd screaming their opinion solo into the camera, but a relatively fair debate:





I think Perri sums it up best: "What really breaks my heart - and like Ellis I didn't give it a perfect score ... but the point is: it is a movie and the idea of being able to accept someone who has a different opinion than you, that needs to start happening more; Because the idea of someone taking away something that someone else loves? The amount of people out there that are basically trying to convince people who enjoyed this movie not to love it as much, and not to have something they appreciate in their lives? That is upsetting and that is just flat out wrong no matter what side of the line you fall on." [14:30]

 

[flynnibus]

So.. just saw it again today, and some updates for me

1) I fell asleep in the 2nd quarter of the film again. That segment just sucks.
2) I feel better about Snoke's death now and 'how did he not sense what Kylo was doing?'. If you listen to the dialogue and watch the framing... He is talking about what Kylo is doing... we see his free hand moving (manipulating the saber next to snoke) so we are drawn to that... but if you listen again and watch Kylo's saber hand... he's doing the same thing there as he 'prepares' to strike Rey. TL: DR - the things Snoke 'feels' from Kylo in his turning of the saber, gripping, etc.. apply to BOTH his strike on Rey and Snoke... Snoke fails to read he's doing it to both.. and his assumptions cloud his ability to pickup that Kylo is going to strike him, not her.
3) I wanted to look at Luke's Loki trick a bit more... and some notes from that
i) Luke totally interacts with Leia as if he were there.. holding her hand, kissing her, and handing her a physical object (the dice) - This seems pretty far fetched compared to the idea he's just a projection
ii) we do get subtle hints about his projection in the fight with Kylo. First, I thought he never physically interacted with Kylo - this is true! Second, they show some hints in the Salt/Red Dirt stuff. Before Kylo rushes Luke, they cut to him planting his feet, and they show the displacement showing the red dirt. In the next rush, Luke does similar, and they show his feet NOT displacing the salt. Twice before that they do cuts to explictly show the feet displaying the salt.. and with Luke that never happens.

4) The DJ betrayal. Before in hindsight I was like "ok, so was he working for the first order all along? When did that happen, etc". I wanted to figure out if they showed him being a double agent or what. Watching today, there is no sign of betrayal until AFTER they are caught. DJ even explains himself saying "we got caught...I cut a deal (paraphrasing)". So it seems their failure in the mission was geniue... not betrayal. And DJ just cuts a deal after being caught to save himself.

But then listening I feel there is another plot hole opened here. So on their way back from the casino planet... finn, rose, DJ seem to go directly to Snoke's ship. DJ doesn't seem to get any insider exposure to what the rest of the rebels are doing... except knowing they are trying to escape. DJ doesn't get any access to the rebels really... So when DJ cuts a deal, supposedly he gives the First Order the codes needed to find the cloaked ships. How does he even know that's what the rebels are doing, and how does he get these codes? He sold out the rebels with information, that really he shouldn't even have.

5) Rey's parents. When you listen to the dialogue, Kylo is telling Rey 'just say it..' 'you already know...' etc.. and it's actually Rey who first says 'They are nobody'. Now how much here is suggestion vs dragging out... I don't know. But noting that Rey says it first.. was a detail that slipped me last time.

6) Kylo and Rey seem to have a force link AFTER snoke is dead too. Snoke takes credit for linking them up so strongly... but as the rebels escape on the Falcon, it's inferred Kylo and Rey have a link again... and Kylo can see Rey escaping.. (instead of just 'sensing' her as I kind of felt it was the first time through). So will these two continue to flat out see each other in their force link? And again, why is the force link so powerful between these two in particular?

Other random thoughts...
The meditation stone on the Jedi island maybe is some sort of 'amplifier'. Rey seems more powerful there, and Luke uses it in his final trick. Maybe that's the element that helps explain the 'new super power' vs previous Jedi tricks.

I don't get all the hate on the casino planet...

 

[flynnibus]

He used the force to grab his broom.

Coming back to this.. and special note about this after seeing it again today...

The 'broom boy' at the end... I know he force pulls the broom towards him... but I don't think that is to infer 'future Jedis' as much as that re-enforces the theme Luke tries to teach Rey. The Force is not the Jedi's power... it's everyone's. To suggest the Light goes away with the end of the Jedi is ego and hubris about the Jedi. We know force sensitivity happens all over... and broom boy's role is to show the future of the rebellion can be a grassroots thing from everywhere... and the force can still be part of that even without 'the last jedi'. So my interpretation is that it's not about future Jedi.. it's about Future for the rebellion (as they need to rebuild... again the 'spark that lits the fire..' spiel..)

The rebellion can and will rebuild... and there are grassroots people out there that the rebellion will rise from. I think the inclusion of the force here is to re-enforce the notion its not about Jedi... the rebellion is a grassroots thing and the force is in everyone.

 

[fractal]

I think a very passionate, very vocal subset of fans (yes, you are all fans, you've been debating this film on a message board for days) vehemently dislike this movie. RT is much more likely to capture that 'you'. While 90 odd percentage of critics 'liked' the movie and general audiences liked the movie enough to average out to very good Post-track and Cinemascores - RT or IMDB is much more likely to capture the fan. Don't confuse RT with general audiences though, that's Post-track and Cinemascore.

Also don't confuse RT user scores with being scientific in the least. It is not an equal opportunity poll, you are much more likely to vote for something only if you really, really liked it (superfan) or really, really disliked it and want your opinion to be heard.



Anyways I feel the Collider panel does a good job at addressing all this drama, not just a single sweaty nerd screaming their opinion solo into the camera, but a relatively fair debate:





I think Perri sums it up best: "What really breaks my heart - and like Ellis I didn't give it a perfect score ... but the point is: it is a movie and the idea of being able to accept someone who has a different opinion than you, that needs to start happening more; Because the idea of someone taking away something that someone else loves? The amount of people out there that are basically trying to convince people who enjoyed this movie not to love it as much, and not to have something they appreciate in their lives? That is upsetting and that is just flat out wrong no matter what side of the line you fall on." [14:30]

i love the people that like it saying the people that didn't like it need to accept someone who has a different opinion, which is basically a backhanded way of saying "admit that you are wrong".

 

[doctornick]

I was hoping for a Finn/Rey romance myself, but as far as Finn/Rose goes, she was already a fan of his before they met.

I still think the Finn/Rey angle is very much in play for Ep IX. While it's clear that Rose developed romantic feelings for Finn, I don't think it's as clear he reciprocates -- I think his feelings for her are more in the friend zone and he still longs for Rey.

 

[flynnibus]

I think Perri sums it up best: "What really breaks my heart - and like Ellis I didn't give it a perfect score ... but the point is: it is a movie and the idea of being able to accept someone who has a different opinion than you, that needs to start happening more; Because the idea of someone taking away something that someone else loves? The amount of people out there that are basically trying to convince people who enjoyed this movie not to love it as much, and not to have something they appreciate in their lives? That is upsetting and that is just flat out wrong no matter what side of the line you fall on." [14:30]

But before this defense go further... let's clarify. This line gets blurred and abused because there are actually different things being touched on here

1) The idea that someone's opinion can be different and you accept that THEY HAVE a different opinion

and that is different from

2) Accepting that someone has a different opinion doesn't mean you must accept their view as valid or more credible than something else

and that is different from

3) When someone feels the need to bow beat someone into changing their view

Which is also different from

4) having a debate or discussion that questions those views brought forward

I think Perri is more talking about #3 - where they are talking about the energy people are spending going after, or trying to change people's opinions based on it being different... and how that kind of 'negativity' or lack of tolerance is unhealthy.

But too often people go on with a retort of 'you must accept this, because ITS MY OPINION' - No, others do not have to ACCEPT your view, they just have to respect you may have a different view... even if it is one that stupid or detrimental. It doesn't mean others must accept or tolerate your view being repeated as anything but your belief. This is a problem because far too often people go around spewing garbage and then defend challenges to the POV by retreating to 'well its my OPINION... you must respect it'. No, no one must We just have to respect you are free to independent thought, even to your own downfall

 

[doctornick]

I think the decision to not have any characters was its greatest problem.

I'm right with you there. Rogue One was just awful when it came to character development and I just didn't care about anyone in that film except K-2SO. Without relating to the characters, their deaths were meaningless and really devalued the whole point of the film.

Rogue One IMHO is clearly the weakest of the three new films. But, it's good that different people like different things.

 

[Mickey's Angels]

3)ii) we do get subtle hints about his projection in the fight with Kylo. First, I thought he never physically interacted with Kylo - this is true! Second, they show some hints in the Salt/Red Dirt stuff. Before Kylo rushes Luke, they cut to him planting his feet, and they show the displacement showing the red dirt. In the next rush, Luke does similar, and they show his feet NOT displacing the salt. Twice before that they do cuts to explictly show the feet displaying the salt.. and with Luke that never happens.

OMG really? I saw the movie twice and didn't notice this! I'm tempted to go see the movie again just to see this part.

4) But then listening I feel there is another plot hole opened here. So on their way back from the casino planet... finn, rose, DJ seem to go directly to Snoke's ship. DJ doesn't seem to get any insider exposure to what the rest of the rebels are doing... except knowing they are trying to escape. DJ doesn't get any access to the rebels really... So when DJ cuts a deal, supposedly he gives the First Order the codes needed to find the cloaked ships. How does he even know that's what the rebels are doing, and how does he get these codes? He sold out the rebels with information, that really he shouldn't even have.

Ya, my family and I thought the same thing after watching it the first time. It was confusing. Maybe, after getting caught, DJ told the guards that he had info on the Resistance, and then they took him to a computer to do his thing and hack the cloaking signal. I know, I know, it's a lot of information to have to imagine up. I feel like they cut something out that explained this part.

6) Kylo and Rey seem to have a force link AFTER snoke is dead too. Snoke takes credit for linking them up so strongly... but as the rebels escape on the Falcon, it's inferred Kylo and Rey have a link again... and Kylo can see Rey escaping.. (instead of just 'sensing' her as I kind of felt it was the first time through). So will these two continue to flat out see each other in their force link? And again, why is the force link so powerful between these two in particular?

Why is the link so powerful? It might have something to do with how much raw power is within them. Snoke knew how to find Rey because he sensed the surge of energy awakening within her back in Ep.7, so he just used his awesome strength to manipulate the Force to link them up easily. Even though it was Snoke making the connection, that spell or ability he used must be lingering on a bit after, so they see each other again as the link slowly fades away.

I don't get all the hate on the casino planet...

For me, it was the length of time and CGI. It was better the second time seeing the movie since I knew what to expect. This movie was split into three stories, so there was a lot to have to juggle and remember. It was great getting Rose background info and setting up the spark of hope kids plot. I just think a lot there could have been taken out because the more time we spent there, the less time he spent with the other two more important things. Also, I think some people are still angry about the prequels and how Lucas went crazy with CGI everythiiiiing, so seeing all those CGI elements at the casino planet and on Snoke's ship probably brought back a lot of those not-so-good memories.

 

[BrianLo]

Coming back to this.. and special note about this after seeing it again today...

The 'broom boy' at the end... I know he force pulls the broom towards him... but I don't think that is to infer 'future Jedis' as much as that re-enforces the theme Luke tries to teach Rey. The Force is not the Jedi's power... it's everyone's. To suggest the Light goes away with the end of the Jedi is ego and hubris about the Jedi. We know force sensitivity happens all over... and broom boy's role is to show the future of the rebellion can be a grassroots thing from everywhere... and the force can still be part of that even without 'the last jedi'. So my interpretation is that it's not about future Jedi.. it's about Future for the rebellion (as they need to rebuild... again the 'spark that lits the fire..' spiel..)

The rebellion can and will rebuild... and there are grassroots people out there that the rebellion will rise from. I think the inclusion of the force here is to re-enforce the notion its not about Jedi... the rebellion is a grassroots thing and the force is in everyone.

Fair points! This was definitely a tangent from my original train of thought that got sidetracked. It was quite a subtle nod at the end that has been missed by more than a few on first viewing.

Broom Boy to me was a blunt 1-2 punch of neither the Jedi nor the Resistance will ever fade, someone will rise up and step into the role as needed. Albeit the Jedi in terms of their specific religious beliefs could be dead, but force sensitivity will still reign.

To me the one other real nod in the movie that the Jedi themselves might live on is Rey's stashing of the books. It all comes down to how staunchly she adapt and interprets them. Otherwise the Jedi (the religious sense, not the Force) truly would be dead without those tomes.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It’s not as good as Empire imo, but some of the same criticisms being leveled against TLJ by fans are the exact same criticisms I remember hearing discussed with regards to ESB.

This is a frequent refrain...the "empire was hated too"...

This movie in no way has the consistency of narrative that empire did. What exactly is unexplained in empire of note?

Nothing or consequence as opposed to the laundry list of unnecessary, dead ends and plot holes in this movie.

I just have to reject that...convincing yourself that the criticism parallels empire is your subconscious trying to convince itself that you don't see a lot of the criticism points yourself...basic psychology.

 

[doctornick]

4) The DJ betrayal. Before in hindsight I was like "ok, so was he working for the first order all along? When did that happen, etc". I wanted to figure out if they showed him being a double agent or what. Watching today, there is no sign of betrayal until AFTER they are caught. DJ even explains himself saying "we got caught...I cut a deal (paraphrasing)". So it seems their failure in the mission was geniue... not betrayal. And DJ just cuts a deal after being caught to save himself.

But then listening I feel there is another plot hole opened here. So on their way back from the casino planet... finn, rose, DJ seem to go directly to Snoke's ship. DJ doesn't seem to get any insider exposure to what the rest of the rebels are doing... except knowing they are trying to escape. DJ doesn't get any access to the rebels really... So when DJ cuts a deal, supposedly he gives the First Order the codes needed to find the cloaked ships. How does he even know that's what the rebels are doing, and how does he get these codes? He sold out the rebels with information, that really he shouldn't even have.

I'm not certainly, but he was listening when they were communicating with Poe. So, I thought that DJ was just using the information he heard during those conversations.

There was no "codes" needed to see the transport ships -- the Resistance folks specifically said that the strategy would work because the First Order wouldn't be scanning for smaller ships. So DJ could have simply told them "scan for smaller transport ships".

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

i love the people that like it saying the people that didn't like it need to accept someone who has a different opinion, which is basically a backhanded way of saying "admit that you are wrong".

To be fair...that's going both directions. We are convincing people not to like it too...

The key difference from my perspective is that we are blasting the plotholes, discontinuity, and character choices...

The other side is giving us the aggregate critic score (critics all loved the English patient) and box office receipts.

Who the hell said the movie going public is intelligent? Not for a second. But let's see how the box office does...they are gonna suffer this weekend due to 12/25 being after the weekend and then by the time normal life settles back in...it's gonna be weekend 4...

I will be interested to see if the movie going public makes a solid effort for repeat viewing.

I wonder what Disney's expectations are? Wonder what they'll get?

 

[BrianLo]

So.. just saw it again today, and some updates for me

1) I fell asleep in the 2nd quarter of the film again. That segment just sucks.
2) I feel better about Snoke's death now and 'how did he not sense what Kylo was doing?'. If you listen to the dialogue and watch the framing... He is talking about what Kylo is doing... we see his free hand moving (manipulating the saber next to snoke) so we are drawn to that... but if you listen again and watch Kylo's saber hand... he's doing the same thing there as he 'prepares' to strike Rey. TL: DR - the things Snoke 'feels' from Kylo in his turning of the saber, gripping, etc.. apply to BOTH his strike on Rey and Snoke... Snoke fails to read he's doing it to both.. and his assumptions cloud his ability to pickup that Kylo is going to strike him, not her.
3) I wanted to look at Luke's Loki trick a bit more... and some notes from that
i) Luke totally interacts with Leia as if he were there.. holding her hand, kissing her, and handing her a physical object (the dice) - This seems pretty far fetched compared to the idea he's just a projection
ii) we do get subtle hints about his projection in the fight with Kylo. First, I thought he never physically interacted with Kylo - this is true! Second, they show some hints in the Salt/Red Dirt stuff. Before Kylo rushes Luke, they cut to him planting his feet, and they show the displacement showing the red dirt. In the next rush, Luke does similar, and they show his feet NOT displacing the salt. Twice before that they do cuts to explictly show the feet displaying the salt.. and with Luke that never happens.

4) The DJ betrayal. Before in hindsight I was like "ok, so was he working for the first order all along? When did that happen, etc". I wanted to figure out if they showed him being a double agent or what. Watching today, there is no sign of betrayal until AFTER they are caught. DJ even explains himself saying "we got caught...I cut a deal (paraphrasing)". So it seems their failure in the mission was geniue... not betrayal. And DJ just cuts a deal after being caught to save himself.

But then listening I feel there is another plot hole opened here. So on their way back from the casino planet... finn, rose, DJ seem to go directly to Snoke's ship. DJ doesn't seem to get any insider exposure to what the rest of the rebels are doing... except knowing they are trying to escape. DJ doesn't get any access to the rebels really... So when DJ cuts a deal, supposedly he gives the First Order the codes needed to find the cloaked ships. How does he even know that's what the rebels are doing, and how does he get these codes? He sold out the rebels with information, that really he shouldn't even have.

5) Rey's parents. When you listen to the dialogue, Kylo is telling Rey 'just say it..' 'you already know...' etc.. and it's actually Rey who first says 'They are nobody'. Now how much here is suggestion vs dragging out... I don't know. But noting that Rey says it first.. was a detail that slipped me last time.

6) Kylo and Rey seem to have a force link AFTER snoke is dead too. Snoke takes credit for linking them up so strongly... but as the rebels escape on the Falcon, it's inferred Kylo and Rey have a link again... and Kylo can see Rey escaping.. (instead of just 'sensing' her as I kind of felt it was the first time through). So will these two continue to flat out see each other in their force link? And again, why is the force link so powerful between these two in particular?

Other random thoughts...
The meditation stone on the Jedi island maybe is some sort of 'amplifier'. Rey seems more powerful there, and Luke uses it in his final trick. Maybe that's the element that helps explain the 'new super power' vs previous Jedi tricks.

I don't get all the hate on the casino planet...

Need to see it again too!

3 i) I thought about that too. I wondered as Rey and Kylo are clearly able to make contact and Kylo's hand comes away wet. The rules are a bit nebulous and not well defined (obviously), but not yet totally inconsistent. I wonder if at minimum force users can physically make some interaction with one another.
3 ii) I know everyone hates the 'brush your shoulders off', but I think Luke does a single swipe as opposed to the modern sign... It's still one of those tonal issues this movie has that sometimes lands, sometimes doesn't. Anyways, I think the lack of dirt there is also another subtle 'hint'

4) DJ was messy. I've heard that's of the biggest sequences axed - the three of them on Snoke's ship. Hard to say but I think I'd have preferred the horse escape sequence axed instead first of all.

6) I wonder if that's proximity and a wear off. They'd need some sort of slight exposition for me to buy that it is maintained (if JJ goes that way in the next movie).

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As a box office update...

Tuesday was $21.55...which is only down 5% from Monday...

However the mon-Tuesday takes of force awakens was a combined $66 mil comapared to 43 for TLJ...that's pretty major bleed.

Rogue one made $22.5 on Tuesday last year...case you're wondering...

 

[BrianLo]

But let's see how the box office does...they are gonna suffer this weekend due to 12/25 being after the weekend and then by the time normal life settles back in...it's gonna be weekend 4...

Actually, that's thought to be a thing going for it. The Force Awakens had Christmas day on a Friday and Rogue One on a Sunday.

Deadline:

We’ll know more as we see how this legs out during the mid-weeks and as holiday breaks kick in. The Force Awakens in 2015 saw a 51% drop in the sophomore session. That included Christmas Day falling on a Friday. This year, it’s a better turnstile configuration with the holiday on a Monday.

Moreover it's a bit apples to oranges as the week following the release was a Holiday for TFA and it's week 2/3 that are more the school holidays for TLJ. I'd really say we can't make solid, solid conclusion until closer to new years and even then after the 4th weekend.