Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi NO SPOILERS!!!!

[englanddg]

Well I can honestly say I've gone through "processing" after a Star Wars movie now 4 times...

...and alas none of the outcomes have been positive for my affection of movie.

I think you deep down know and not much is gonna change.

...they were 1,2,7, and now 8...by the way.

Same here. I'm old enough I started with Empire in the theaters as a child. Not re-release...

1,2,7 and 8...yeah. I agree. That same angst.

I didn't like Rogue One much either...

The thing is...I loved Clone Wars (I found after watching Clone Wars, and then rewatching 1 - 6, 1 and 2 are significantly improved...not great ... nothing can help the unconvincing love story ... but, much better)

I think Rebels is great.

Heck, I'm playing Battlefront II right now, and thoroughly enjoying the story.

I mean, they are TV shows, they have their hit and miss, but...they are TV shows, so they can make up for it.

Anyhow, my point is, it isn't new characters or new stories that bother me...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes, I think this argument is much more well rationed! There is a Disney bubble. But it's earned in many ways too and more than counteracted by a few hipster critics or fans who just love nothing more than to see the big company fail. Disney films are not critic proof, we've had two this year already.



Anyways, as a general update the CinemaScore just came out - it is an A.

View attachment 250608

I think the disney "bubble" has skewed a lot of the reviews of recent movies...

I think specifically of jungle book...which is not good... and force awakens. Force awakens was a reboot...in all the ways that matter...and was not critically identified as such.

That throws off expectations In my opinion.
We'll see if that continues.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think the disney "bubble" has skewed a lot of the reviews of recent movies...

I think specifically of jungle book...which is not good... and force awakens. Force awakens was a reboot...in all the ways that matter...and was not critically identified as such.

That throws off expectations In my opinion.
We'll see if that continues.

I wonder if Star Wars should be tv? And not movies any longer unless it's based on a tv following...

There's no big payday...no constant toy sales...but I think what's becoming painfully, open wound clear now is that they can't build Star Wars in movies as we know them...or used to.

There have been Series on tv since Star Wars That stick with you because of rich character development (TNG, DS9 and BSG...specifically) moreso than any recent Star Wars film.

 

[spacemt354]

What specifically? I didn't really think anything was left unanswered?

True, very little was left unanswered. The problem was some people just didnt like the answers. Big difference there.

 

[englanddg]

I wonder if Star Wars should be tv? And not movies any longer unless it's based on a tv following...

There's no big payday...no constant toy sales...but I think what's becoming painfully, open wound clear now is that they can't build Star Wars in movies as we know them...or used to.

There have been Series on tv since Star Wars That stick with you because of rich character development (TNG, DS9 and BSG...specifically) moreso than any recent Star Wars film.

Yeah, well...

A lot of the same issues these movies have, to me, are the same issues Star Trek: Discovery has...

It's almost like it's script writing by committee.

I remember when I was co-directing a one act, and we had to cut Man of La Mancha. We had to get really creative with it, and tear out all sorts of dialogue to get to the gut of the story, yet keep enough that we had musical bits and didn't lose the story or the emotional depth.

We had a group of us, directing staff, musical staff, some of the lead actors...oh, and man, people got testy about different parts getting cut out. And, I made many enemies because me, and my co-director, had separate meetings where we decided that, while all the ideas were good, and the points valid in their own way, we were trying to maintain a larger story. And, yeah, that meant that you might lose 1/3 of your song, and that the rape scene was turned into a much smaller scene, but staged artistically (we did it with a scrim and lighting so as little bird was being sung, the shadows assaulted and raped her)...

But, the point is...it gets cut.

And, now, I wonder if they don't fight these fights, so everyone's ideas get shoved in there without an overarching controlling mechanism to...no pun intended...bind it all together.

Reminds me of this...if you haven't seen it...



And, I think, part of it...for me...is they toss so much, so fast, you end up just not caring.

Now, this isn't unique to this particular strain of Star Wars...

An example going back to the Prequels...I didn't care when Dooku fought Yoda, or when he died....because he wasn't well developed in the films.

But, after watching Clone Wars...those scenes were a lot better to me.

Mind you, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, but I've noticed it in more than Star Trek.

I can say, one thing that really tears me out of these stories is how juvenile they are with their characters, and how often they fall back on the "he's cool because".

Too often they think that "character development" is some sort of blog post. Like, the new lady from this movie (who, I liked in general), they had to throw in some exposition piece to "give her depth"... "look closer"... Oh, she was an ex-slave, and has a cool decoder ring. How...neat....

They have to explain things to the audience that really don't mean much, but fail to explain things that actually mean a lot.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Its an opinion. Opinions can't be right or wrong. Lord.

Eh, opinions are subjective yes. Especially regarding taste. But it's also possible for one opinion to be better reasoned and informed than another.

I'm sure someone back when the original movie came out was saying, "Yeah! There were so many plot holes. I mean, they didn't even explain why a battle station the size of a moon could be blown up with one torpedo!" 39 years later you found out.

How is that a plot hole? The rebels stole the blueprints to the death star and used them to find a weakness. A weakness that seems reasonable within the context and logic the original film established. It seemed logical to me for there to exist an exhaust port connecting to the core reactor, and that firing a powerful weapon into it would cause a violent chain reaction. But it also seemed reasonable that it would be difficult to find it on such an immensely large, revolutionary and technologically complex object (you'd have to know what you were looking for AND realize its significance, and it makes sense that this would require detailed engineering schematics). I never questioned that or felt it needed explaining further.

Spoiler

I consider it absurd and nonsensical progression in literature as a whole (let alone Star Wars) for there to be a random unexplained undeveloped nobodies (without any reason or training) running around and effortlessly mind controlling people and hurling around extremely heavy objects.

The series has long established that doing the things Rey has pulled off effortlessly is extremely difficult and takes years if not decades of training. All the characters that have accomplished such feats have been very strong in the force (even compared to other jedi) and are generally older. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Rey is simply extremely strong with the force. Yoda, Mace Windu and the Emperor were all possessing a strong natural force talent above their other peers. So she COULD possess something similar to their raw natural power (though that still shouldn't put her on the same level as a Skywalker unless she too is a "chosen one" of some sort). The biggest problem though is that she lacks any sort of training or even basic knowledge of the force when she begins performing feats. Feats that are well beyond what Luke was doing with years of training.

Bringing up Luke, he inherited Anakin's strong connection to the force. And yet despite his raw strength and even a bit of training from Obi Wan in A New Hope, he only shows instinct and reflex related feats. There is apparently a three year timeskip between ANH and ESB, and Luke finally manages to just BARELY retrieve his lightsaber with the force from about a foot away (with extreme concentration). His time with Yoda (we don't know how long, could be days, weeks or even months) progresses him much faster but he still struggles with feats that Rey accomplished without training or effort. Luke is initially only able to lift a single small stone with difficulty. After more time passes he is able to finally lift a few heavier objects at once with intense meditation (though far less of a feat compared to Rey's effortless levitation of tons of large boulders at the end of Last Jedi).

Regarding the villains, I think it's reasonable to expect there to be some purpose, motivation and satisfaction behind a character previously introduced as the main villain. Whether it be either Snoke or Kylo Ren. Kylo may well still receive some explanation in Episode 9 so i'm still up for that. But i'm not holding out hope for Snoke, I get the feeling they wrote themselves into a corner and tried too hard to recreate Palpatine, and now aborting the idea.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Started a Spoiler thread so we don't have to keep using the Spoiler tags...

https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads...rs-plot-points-revealed-and-discussed.936621/

 

[MisterPenguin]

https://deadline.com/2017/12/the-la...ice-thursday-night-preview-record-1202227654/

So what do fans think? ComScore/Screen Engine reports a mindblowing five-out-of-five stars for the movie and a 90% overall positive with an 82% definite recommend. Forty five percent said that the Rian Johnson-directed movie came in above their expectations while close to 40% said they’ll [see] the movie again in the theater. Huge.
​

That's a very different number of recommends compared to the audience RT score.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

https://deadline.com/2017/12/the-la...ice-thursday-night-preview-record-1202227654/

So what do fans think? ComScore/Screen Engine reports a mindblowing five-out-of-five stars for the movie and a 90% overall positive with an 82% definite recommend. Forty five percent said that the Rian Johnson-directed movie came in above their expectations while close to 40% said they’ll [see] the movie again in the theater. Huge.
​

That's a very different number of recommends compared to the audience RT score.

We'll see how it plays from a box office standpoint...that is very interesting...

Maybe we can alternate abrams and Johnson from now on? We'll have thousands of dead end teases and plot points to Chase our tale on forever...

 

[Quinnmac000]

https://deadline.com/2017/12/the-la...ice-thursday-night-preview-record-1202227654/

So what do fans think? ComScore/Screen Engine reports a mindblowing five-out-of-five stars for the movie and a 90% overall positive with an 82% definite recommend. Forty five percent said that the Rian Johnson-directed movie came in above their expectations while close to 40% said they’ll [see] the movie again in the theater. Huge.
​

That's a very different number of recommends compared to the audience RT score.

Early surveys of audience reactions Thursday night by comScore’s PostTrack found that 68% rated “Star Wars: The Last Jedi” as “excellent” and another 21% as “very good.” A total of 82% said they would “definitely recommend” the film.

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-box-office-opening-thursday-1202641978/

The issue with cinema scores and posttrak is they don't show the full breakdown.
http://deadline.com/2014/08/b-grade...res-mean-and-why-exit-polling-matters-816538/

 

[Quinnmac000]

I want to also point out TFA and Rogue One both got A cinema scores and while intially public sentiment was positive amongst fans and subsequent viewings they weren't considered that great.

So I think some of the disconnect between the last films and this one is more so people willing to vocalize their disappointment while the other two they would rather give a chance.

 

[Kylo Ken]

It's totally ok to not like something or be disappointed with something that Disney has produced. I don't see why people's opinions are invalid if they aren't fawning over the movie or if they are fawning over it too much.

TLJ was a good movie, not great. I felt that it was an improvement over TFA. It wasn't the "middle act" that I was expecting but I'm not quite sure if that is a good or bad thing. People online really need to pump the brakes though when comparing it to Empire......

 

[JohnD]

If Disney’s strategy to make more revenue was to have you see it on second viewing because you had no idea what to think on first viewing, they executed it flawlessly.

 

[fractal]

I'm still trying to process what I just saw.

In some ways, that's really good, right?

But...wrong.

When they get it right, man do they get it right. It's just all the littering of stuff they got wrong that is irking me. And, I'm trying to find a way that isn't just emotional venting to relay what it is that bothers me about it.

I will say one thing...the new characters they introduced with Force Awakens, I really like. I was happy to see where they were going, where they would end up. And, some of them I think are simply fantastic (though some of the writing surrounding them is...not).

I need to stew more.

But...this move...wasn't good. I almost didn't go see it because I know my family will want to see it together over the holiday, and my daughter will want to go for sure when I get her on Tuesday.

But...I just don't want to see it again. I just...don't.

About half the movie I was...bored.

for the first time ever, I considered walking out of the theater on a Star Wars movie (it was towards the end). Once it ended I was out. My son comes home from college next week and we had planned to see it together and (I can't believe I'm saying this) I have no desire to see it a second time. Despite having issues with TFA I saw it 5 times in the theaters.

 

[AEfx]

For the zillionth time internet, rotten tomatoes (or any internet based) fan scores are THE MOST useless metric of anything. They're 80% comprised of users who review movies multiple times with a score of 5 or 0.

DCEU fans notoriously run up the user scores to prove something. They are also the ones with a beef against "Disney".

Have fun with those conspiracy theories.

If this were true, then TFA would have a low score. Hard core Star Wars fans ripped that apart, as well - the ones that spit every time they say "Disney". The difference here is that you have people like myself, who defended TFA up and down because we insisted that you would see the deeper meaning and blatantly obvious subtext once they got into Episode VII, who were completely disappointed with this nonsensical follow-up. Come on, even Mark Hamill has expressed his own displeasure on multiple occasions - enough so that even his follow ups of "Oh, Rian is just amazing" are becoming less and less convincing.

 

[VaderTron]

Spoiler: What in the sam hell?

It's late...so sorry if this rambles...

1. I for one could care less about snoke. But they HAD to explain why he was the puppet master and where he was during the entire franchise and why he hated skywalker. They did NOTHING and now it's a tremendous hole in narrative that can't ever be fixed.

2. The "allies on the outer rim" is borderline "jedi master sipha dyas/clone army" bad...they're down to 3 stinking ships and leave with 20 people left - in total - and there's reserves somewhere over the rainbow? That was kindergarten screenplay writing...frankly.

This isn't a specific "hole" lots of important details have been handled with Lucas style meat hooks by Johnson AND Abrams...

Why are the winners of the war destitute without any equipment...or people for that matter? One Death Star blast wipes out every shred of order? That's counter to the entire mythos/appeal of Star Wars. It's bushleague.

Can we get a damn explanation?

Why do you continue to insert characters to not serve any purpose? Like phasma? Of Finn, frankly? He's there to be what ...Exactly?

Poe is wooden...beyond wooden. And the entire blown up cruiser bridge thing was beyond atrocious...culminating in that matrix nonsense...

And here's a good one...what kinda gas did they run on? I bet it's premium...

That kinda made the whole premise silly. And why did they attack and nearly destroy the ship with the fighters in the first 5 minutes and then NEVER do it for an hour and 30? What?

And honestly...I can see why hamill has been making veiled criticisms in the run up. They did "ok" with his return...but definitely could have done much better. Just my take.

And I have to echo other sentiments that this movie makes the last one pointless and I already thought there wasn't much of a point...so now you have a 3 movie ark that has 2 hours left that leaves us here:
1. Unknown, orphan force wizard
2. Conflicted baddie from main family that isn't sure of himself
3. Only main classic character - in a galaxy where nothing has been explained - is a dead one that looked absolutely horrendous In 2 movies...just can't ignore that.

So where goes from here? Highway to nowhere.

I did like mercurial Yoda...nice touch. And they had to do Akbar like that? According to their own backstory the most decorated commander that not only won the biggest onscreen battle...but the one that created the graveyard from 7 without a single mention of what went down? Again?

Will mon mothma be found dead on the crapper in episode IX?

It's like these guys have something better to than make simple explanations? Like cgi herds of things for space scenes.

Maybe Lucas has infiltrated and is secretly running a Shadow stupid?

Spoiler: Spoiler-Quote from new movie

Impresive. Everything you just said was wrong.

 

[AEfx]

Spoiler

Like AEfx, I also came to Rey's defense when Force Awakens released. I liked her as a character a lot and was interested in the mystery behind her. Many branded her as a Mary Sue back in 2015, which I argued against and felt was a hasty assumption at the time. Episode 7 seemed to be building up a major reason explaining both her power and skill. But if The Last Jedi is telling us the truth about her true identity, her feats are completely nonsensical and she is indeed a Mary Sue.

That said, there's still the possibility that Rey's reveal as a nobody is a lie and will be reversed in Episode 9. We've obviously been lied to before in Star Wars only to later have the real truth dropped on us. So there's still a chance to correct this issue. Kylo Ren makes a big point in this movie that he wants to purge the past (wanting a clean slate), and he is also trying to recruit Rey to his side. So it could be that he's lying to Rey so she doesn't dwell on her own past or parents.

I'm sure that Ben knows Vader was redeemed. Luke and Leia probably told the entire galaxy Anakin's story when they were rebuilding the Republic. Even Rey knows Vader was redeemed, she reminded Luke that he managed to turn Vader back into Anakin, as an analogy to convince him to also have hope for Ben as well. And she probably only would have heard about it from stories listening to travelers on Jakku. So Ben almost certainly knows, especially since he was Luke's student and wasn't so disconnected from society like Rey.

Ben's motivations in these films are a major plot hole. Even Anakin's motives for turning in the prequels were more clear and understandable.

But I am quite disconnected with what made Ben receptive to Snoke's influence, even before Luke pulled his weapon on him (which was also completely out of character for Luke).

Agree, you understand exactly the point of what they have done to Rey and TFA - though, minor correction on the current continuity - Vader is in no way redeemed to the people of the Galaxy. In fact, the entire novel telling Leia's story in the years pre-TFA, Bloodlines, is about the threat of Leia's (and Luke's) secret parentage becoming public knowledge. That's why Leia is no longer a Senator and has left public life to run the Resistance. Although they don't really discuss it in the actual film, she is really in hiding because of it. It is also part of what alienates Ben.

It's amazing what is left out of the films that you are expected to understand based on a novel that only a tiny percentage of people who see the films are ever going to see, it's really lazy to depend on the books to fix up plot holes - it's Lucas all over again.

I'd argue there were more than two, but-

Spoiler

Nothing about Snoke is revealed (what he is, where he comes from, why he looks so damaged, why he can use the force and is so powerful etc). And again, nothing explained why Rey can use the force in such a powerful and skilled manner. I'd also say it remains a huge hole as to what caused Kylo Ren to listen to Snoke in the first place.

That's the biggest thing. The two biggest questions from TFA (that were not just "fan ideas" - they were completely reinforced by the film and the statements of the people who made it) turned out to not matter whatsoever.

And notice, that these are the issues that are bothering folks like us - when in fact, a whole other segment of Star Wars fans are ape-crap about the movie for a completely other reason that we haven't even touched on yet...

 

[AEfx]

True, very little was left unanswered. The problem was some people just didnt like the answers. Big difference there.

No, the problem was that the answers didn't make any sense based on the last film.

 

[AEfx]

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-box-office-opening-thursday-1202641978/

Why are you bringing up irrelevant information? Has a single person said it wasn't financially a success?

 

[Quinnmac000]

Why are you bringing up irrelevant information? Has a single person said it wasn't financially a success?

How is that irrevelant? People were stating people who didn't like it were just trolls in general and I was pointing out the breakdown of people who thought it was excellent and just good. if only 68% thought it was excellent, that means the remaining 32% probably had some issues with the film.