Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi NO SPOILERS!!!!

[Lora Baines Bradley]

To be honest, you really just pointed out what is the biggest flaw in the entire OT.

Spoiler

Darth Vader wasn't "redeemed" - he murdered thousands upon thousands of people. Caused untold suffering for millions. He did one good thing at the very end of his life. That Rey would similarly love Ben after he has done the same thing, is just...beyond awful storytelling. Especially since she did not know him before hand. To answer your question - they should have been siblings, as TFA painstakingly tried to subtextualize that was completely thrown out the window here. The good, and the bad. The light, and the dark.

Rey could have been the good, the light. Now she's just a sad romantic trope in a Mary Sue package.

Spoiler

Copy and pasted from the Official Star Wars Databank: "Vader rose, the good in him awakened by his son’s compassion, and destroyed the Emperor. While he had suffered fatal injuries from the Emperor’s lightning, Vader’s redeeming final act restored his consciousness to Anakin Skywalker, and he had one last moment with Luke before peacefully accepting his death."

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-vader

I will admit that when I walked out of TFA I thought she was a Solo. Then I went online and read countless speculation posts, and about a month later I was vehemently against Rey being related to Kylo in any way- not solely because I saw their potential, but because it seemed like uninspired storytelling to me. I love the idea of her being a nobody. I don't want to spoil it for you, but her parents have been all but confirmed as two people in Battlefront II. I believe you mentioned in another post about how Kylo says "what girl?" in TFA, and Rey being the daughter of these two people would explain why he says that. Again, I don't want to spoil it if you haven't played it, but I'm sure a quick search for "rey's parents battlefront ii" would bring it up.

 

[AEfx]

Spoiler

Copy and pasted from the Official Star Wars Databank: "Vader rose, the good in him awakened by his son’s compassion, and destroyed the Emperor. While he had suffered fatal injuries from the Emperor’s lightning, Vader’s redeeming final act restored his consciousness to Anakin Skywalker, and he had one last moment with Luke before peacefully accepting his death."

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-vader

I will admit that when I walked out of TFA I thought she was a Solo. Then I went online and read countless speculation posts, and about a month later I was vehemently against Rey being related to Kylo in any way- not solely because I saw their potential, but because it seemed like uninspired storytelling to me. I love the idea of her being a nobody. I don't want to spoil it for you, but her parents have been all but confirmed as two people in Battlefront II. I believe you mentioned in another post about how Kylo says "what girl?" in TFA, and Rey being the daughter of these two people would explain why he says that. Again, I don't want to spoil it if you haven't played it, but I'm sure a quick search for "rey's parents battlefront ii" would bring it up.

Totally aware of the canon - and as I said, it is the biggest flaw in the OT. It's retroactive continuity to pretend that Vader and Anakin were somehow two different people. The Force is not about multiple-personality disorders.

As to Battlefront, yes, I am aware - and it has rather thoroughly been debunked.

Spoiler

It also makes no sense with what was said in TLJ about her parents.

 

[Princess Leia]

Okay, it’s been an hour since it ended. I honestly think I need another viewing before I make up my mind.

Right now, this is my order:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Rogue One
5. Force Awakens/ Last Jedi
6. Last Jedi/ Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

Some general observances that are not spoilers-

The world does not deserve Mark Hamill.

The world did not deserve Carrie Fisher, and I wish she had her movie to shine. Unfortunately, she just didn’t get that chance in the sequels.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

 

[BrianLo]

There were two MASSIVE unexplained key points in that movie...to be fair I might go back tonight to see if I just missed it? I can't imagine anyone would cut a film that left things that in the dark. It's not "nuance"...it's kicking out the foundation of the franchise...longterm.

What specifically? I didn't really think anything was left unanswered?

 

[JohnD]

People set themselves up for following pet theories for two years that didn't turn out the way they wanted...

Spoiler

All the theories about who Snoke was. Now, who the he** cares?

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Since people are starting to post plot spoiler details, I guess it's safe to elaborate some more in spoiler tags now. I basically agree with @AEfx on his comments.

Spoiler

Like AEfx, I also came to Rey's defense when Force Awakens released. I liked her as a character a lot and was interested in the mystery behind her. Many branded her as a Mary Sue back in 2015, which I argued against and felt was a hasty assumption at the time. Episode 7 seemed to be building up a major reason explaining both her power and skill. But if The Last Jedi is telling us the truth about her true identity, her feats are completely nonsensical and she is indeed a Mary Sue.

That said, there's still the possibility that Rey's reveal as a nobody is a lie and will be reversed in Episode 9. We've obviously been lied to before in Star Wars only to later have the real truth dropped on us. So there's still a chance to correct this issue. Kylo Ren makes a big point in this movie that he wants to purge the past (wanting a clean slate), and he is also trying to recruit Rey to his side. So it could be that he's lying to Rey so she doesn't dwell on her own past or parents.

Spoiler

Ideally, how would you have liked to see this trilogy go, if you were given the characters of the sequel trilogy? The idea of Kylo Ren, who wants so desperately to be like his grandfather (and I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that Kylo doesn't know Vader was redeemed), not getting redeemed would be supremely unsatisfying to me. He's obviously conflicted. We see that his mentor tried to kill him. Luke turning on Ben because he thought he was going to go dark was a self fulfilling prophecy. I want more for Han and Leia's son than for him to become irredeemable.

Spoiler

I'm sure that Ben knows Vader was redeemed. Luke and Leia probably told the entire galaxy Anakin's story when they were rebuilding the Republic. Even Rey knows Vader was redeemed, she reminded Luke that he managed to turn Vader back into Anakin, as an analogy to convince him to also have hope for Ben as well. And she probably only would have heard about it from stories listening to travelers on Jakku. So Ben almost certainly knows, especially since he was Luke's student and wasn't so disconnected from society like Rey.

Ben's motivations in these films are a major plot hole. Even Anakin's motives for turning in the prequels were more clear and understandable. His fear for Padme's life was of course the tipping point, but he had already come to view the senate and jedi as corrupt and war mongering. Not to mention he grew up as a slave and probably felt it uncannily similar underneath the strict rules of the jedi order (as well as their unwillingness to help slaves). So bad writing and acting aside, I never questioned what led Anakin down a bad path.

But I am quite disconnected with what made Ben receptive to Snoke's influence, even before Luke pulled his weapon on him (which was also completely out of character for Luke).

What specifically? I didn't really think anything was left unanswered?

I'd argue there were more than two, but-

Spoiler

Nothing about Snoke is revealed (what he is, where he comes from, why he looks so damaged, why he can use the force and is so powerful etc). And again, nothing explained why Rey can use the force in such a powerful and skilled manner. I'd also say it remains a huge hole as to what caused Kylo Ren to listen to Snoke in the first place.

 

[BrianLo]

The Last Jedi scores Lower Than Justice League with Fans

For the zillionth time internet, rotten tomatoes (or any internet based) fan scores are THE MOST useless metric of anything. They're 80% comprised of users who review movies multiple times with a score of 5 or 0.

DCEU fans notoriously run up the user scores to prove something. They are also the ones with a beef against "Disney".


Post Track comScores or Cinemascores are the only thing based on single-vote users who've ACTUALLY seen the movie and are allowed to vote once.

 

[StarWarsGirl]

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I REALLY liked the Last Jedi.

Spoiler

1.One thing I hated in TFA was how things ended for Han. I liked Luke's conclusion much better in this story. He lost his way, but he got it back. And well done Mark Hamill.
2. I liked the development of Finn's character, not to mention his relationship with Rose. I'm so glad they got off of the Rey/Finn track.
3. In TFA, Kylo Ren came off as a spoiled, whiny brat. Now, I understand his character more, maybe even sympathize, which makes him a better villain.
4. But thank goodness he killed Snoke. That guy was annoying.
5. The porgs were cute.
6. And we got Yoda.

If I have anything negative to say:
1. Force or not, Leia would not have survived being blown into space. That was too unbelieveable.
2. Not enough Chewy.

Now for predictions:
1. I'm not buying that Rey's parents just abandoned her for money and are dead on Jakuu. There's more to that; I think we'll just have to wait to find out.
2. I'm with what others have said. I don't think Rey will fall for Kylo Ren. If Ben Solo turns back from the dark side, maybe. She's got too much self respect to get involved while he's still on the dark side, though. But I'm still not sure they'll fully go in that direction.
3. Thinking we'll see Luke return in Force ghost form, especially given that the film will have to proceed without Carrie Fisher and Leia.

I thought this one was better than TFA. I'm not a fan of Rogue One either. That one feels overall too dark. Star Wars movies are dark, but that one takes the cake. I've had the Blue Ray for a while and have yet to watch it. TFA...definitely have watched that a few times. More than a few, actually.

 

[BrianLo]

For everyone who thinks this movie lacked character development, you really need to re-watch it.

Rogue One's biggest flaw was a complete lack of character development. One of TFA's flaws was one-note, single motivation characterizations.

TLJ character development was outrageously nuanced and better than most Star Wars movies. I think that's the problem some long time SW fans have, they are used to very single purpose characterizations - this was not that movie.

 

[Princess Leia]

Oh, something I thought during one of the battle scenes with the Resistance-
Who runs the world?

GIRLS

I cannot being to describe how happy I am to see women in military positions in the past 3 movies. All 3 have had them, and that more than makes up for my constant questions as a kid as to why there were no women fighter pilots.

A couple more thoughts-
The movie could have cut 30 minutes and been a better film.

Spoiler: Character spoilers

RIP Admiral Ackbar

I am not sold on Rose yet. I think the actress is adorable, but her delivery was almost wooden in parts. I called some sort of thing happening between her and Finn, but come on, it’s not love, you’ve known him for like a day.

I love Gwendoline Christie to bits- Brienne of Tarth is one of my favorite characters in books and tv- but man, Phasma is useless.

Benicio del Toro- another fantastic actor, in a kind of wasted role if he doesn’t come back. Hey JJ, how about you bring Lando and BdT’s character back in the same scene?

Yay Poe and Rey finally met.

 

[VaderTron]

People set themselves up for following pet theories for two years that didn't turn out the way they wanted...

What specifically? I didn't really think anything was left unanswered?

"Fans" need to calm down and realize they have just been given an epic movie. I just finished watching this for the second time. Admittedly, the plot was thick with twists and turns that didn't go the way I thought, or the way many fans would have expected. However, they are overlooking one of the most bold and enlightening movies in the franchise. "Fans" think they already know what Star Wars is. They think they know what "The Force" is. They think they know how characters should act. This movie took their adolescent level understanding and tried to broaden it to new heights. Like a kid in his first day of Physics or Trigonometry, they were uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to adding and subtracting and making solar systems out of Styrofoam for the science fair. TLJ expands the Star Wars universe along with our understanding of "The Force" and it's abilities. Once the real fans re-watch this film a few times it will become as beloved as The Empire Strikes Back. There are so many levels to this movie that most "fans" have not even noticed yet, and they are already trying to write it off.

SPOILERS:

1. Most probably didn't notice the Jedi text books in the drawer that Finn takes the blanket out of on the Millennium Falcon. Clearly Rey had taken them out of the tree sanctuary before leaving the island since she had concluded Luke was not going to help. Yoda implies this as the tree sanctuary is burning with his statement to Luke that the wisdom found in those books Rey already possesses.

2. So Luke uses a "new ability" in the force. Get over it. "Fans" think they already know everything that can happen. Fans love the ever expanding knowledge of the Star Wars universe that new films bring. The reason Luke dies is well explained within the movie itself. When Rey and Ben are force-linked the very first time Ben says he knows Rey isn't doing it because the effort involved would kill her. In their situation they can only see each other, not their surroundings. Luke's intensity causes his presence to be so real that his sister AND Ben, both highly force sensitive are fooled into believing Luke is really there. However, they do a fantastic job in telling you he isn't really there. If you watch Ben's foot as he plants and digs in for the fight against Luke the salt on Crait's surface scuffs and reveals the red surface. A brief glimpse at Luke's foot making a similar move shows that no foot print is made at all.


END OF SPOILERS


I surely hope mouthy "fans" don't taint the viewpoint of would-be Star Wars moviegoers. One thing I do know about Disney is that money is the bottom line. So, if sales dip after the first weekend because of bad reviews they are going to be too scared to provide a fantastically daring finale to this trilogy...a tragedy for the REAL fans.

 

[ProfSavage]

"Fans" need to calm down and realize they have just been given an epic movie. I just finished watching this for the second time. Admittedly, the plot was thick with twists and turns that didn't go the way I thought, or the way many fans would have expected. However, they are overlooking one of the most bold and enlightening movies in the franchise. "Fans" think they already know what Star Wars is. They think they know what "The Force" is. They think they know how characters should act. This movie took their adolescent level understanding and tried to broaden it to new heights. Like a kid in his first day of Physics or Trigonometry, they were uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to adding and subtracting and making solar systems out of Styrofoam for the science fair. TLJ expands the Star Wars universe along with our understanding of "The Force" and it's abilities. Once the real fans re-watch this film a few times it will become as beloved as The Empire Strikes Back. There are so many levels to this movie that most "fans" have not even noticed yet, and they are already trying to write it off.

SPOILERS:

1. Most probably didn't notice the Jedi text books in the drawer that Finn takes the blanket out of on the Millennium Falcon. Clearly Rey had taken them out of the tree sanctuary before leaving the island since she had concluded Luke was not going to help. Yoda implies this as the tree sanctuary is burning with his statement to Luke that the wisdom found in those books Rey already possesses.

2. So Luke uses a "new ability" in the force. Get over it. "Fans" think they already know everything that can happen. Fans love the ever expanding knowledge of the Star Wars universe that new films bring. The reason Luke dies is well explained within the movie itself. When Rey and Ben are force-linked the very first time Ben says he knows Rey isn't doing it because the effort involved would kill her. In their situation they can only see each other, not their surroundings. Luke's intensity causes his presence to be so real that his sister AND Ben, both highly force sensitive are fooled into believing Luke is really their. However, they do a fantastic job in telling you he isn't really there. If you watch Ben's foot as he plants and digs in for the fight against Luke the salt on Crait's surface scuffs and reveals the red surface. A brief glimpse at Luke's foot making a similar move shows that no foot print is made at all.

END OF SPOILERS


I surely hope mouthy "fans" don't taint the viewpoint of would-be Star Wars moviegoers. One thing I do know about Disney is that money is the bottom line. So, if sales dip after the first weekend because of bad reviews they are going to be too scared to provide a fantastically daring finale to this trilogy...a tragedy for the REAL fans.

 

[RandySavage]

Rogue One's biggest flaw was a complete lack of character development. One of TFA's flaws was one-note, single motivation characterizations.

Obliged to defend R1. I thought Rogue One's character development was outstandingly-handled, even more so for a cast of people you'd only know for a short while, particularly its leads: Jyn and Cassian. I understood each character's motivation and background clearly and bought into why they were doing what they were doing - it was a leanly- and intelligently-scripted Star Wars movie, which is rare (save Vader's "choke on your ambitions" groaner).

I actually cared about R1's characters by film's end, something I can't say about any characters by the end of Last Jedi (except Chewie), a testament to what I think is much lower level of script, casting and performance in Johnson's film than R1.

***
I'd like to like "Last Jedi", even though I didn't on first viewing. Which is why I'm on this board right now. Clearly, intelligent people whose opinions I respect, got something out of it that I didn't.

 

[VaderTron]

I'd argue there were more than two, but-

Spoiler

Nothing about Snoke is revealed (what he is, where he comes from, why he looks so damaged, why he can use the force and is so powerful etc). And again, nothing explained why Rey can use the force in such a powerful and skilled manner. I'd also say it remains a huge hole as to what caused Kylo Ren to listen to Snoke in the first place.

[/QUOTE]


These are not 'plot holes'. They are unexplained side stories that had nothing to do with the main story line. Disney is being smart and allowing such stories to be told in stand-alone movies ala Rogue One. I'm sure someone back when the original movie came out was saying, "Yeah! There were so many plot holes. I mean, they didn't even explain why a battle station the size of a moon could be blown up with one torpedo!" 39 years later you found out.

You just have to be patient. At least with Disney at the helm you probably only have to wait 10 years give or take a few.

 

[VaderTron]

I'd like to like "Last Jedi", even though I didn't on first viewing. Which is why I'm on this board right now. Clearly, intelligent people whose opinions I respect, got something out of it that I didn't.

Trust me, it watches much better the 2nd time. Give it another viewing before making up your mind.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

"Fans" need to calm down and realize they have just been given an epic movie. I just finished watching this for the second time. Admittedly, the plot was thick with twists and turns that didn't go the way I thought, or the way many fans would have expected. However, they are overlooking one of the most bold and enlightening movies in the franchise. "Fans" think they already know what Star Wars is. They think they know what "The Force" is. They think they know how characters should act. This movie took their adolescent level understanding and tried to broaden it to new heights. Like a kid in his first day of Physics or Trigonometry, they were uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to adding and subtracting and making solar systems out of Styrofoam for the science fair. TLJ expands the Star Wars universe along with our understanding of "The Force" and it's abilities. Once the real fans re-watch this film a few times it will become as beloved as The Empire Strikes Back. There are so many levels to this movie that most "fans" have not even noticed yet, and they are already trying to write it off.

SPOILERS:

1. Most probably didn't notice the Jedi text books in the drawer that Finn takes the blanket out of on the Millennium Falcon. Clearly Rey had taken them out of the tree sanctuary before leaving the island since she had concluded Luke was not going to help. Yoda implies this as the tree sanctuary is burning with his statement to Luke that the wisdom found in those books Rey already possesses.

2. So Luke uses a "new ability" in the force. Get over it. "Fans" think they already know everything that can happen. Fans love the ever expanding knowledge of the Star Wars universe that new films bring. The reason Luke dies is well explained within the movie itself. When Rey and Ben are force-linked the very first time Ben says he knows Rey isn't doing it because the effort involved would kill her. In their situation they can only see each other, not their surroundings. Luke's intensity causes his presence to be so real that his sister AND Ben, both highly force sensitive are fooled into believing Luke is really there. However, they do a fantastic job in telling you he isn't really there. If you watch Ben's foot as he plants and digs in for the fight against Luke the salt on Crait's surface scuffs and reveals the red surface. A brief glimpse at Luke's foot making a similar move shows that no foot print is made at all.

END OF SPOILERS


I surely hope mouthy "fans" don't taint the viewpoint of would-be Star Wars moviegoers. One thing I do know about Disney is that money is the bottom line. So, if sales dip after the first weekend because of bad reviews they are going to be too scared to provide a fantastically daring finale to this trilogy...a tragedy for the REAL fans.

I agree with all of this. I feel this film will be beloved in time. Unfortunately the most negative responses are usually the loudest, and one bad review drowns out 10 good ones. I honestly don’t know what people expected from this movie- Luke teaching his daughter Rey to be a perfect Jedi and how Kylo is full on bad and how everything’s absolute?? What exactly did they want?? Honestly I laughed so hard when Luke tossed the lightsaber behind him. It was the perfect slap to the people who thought everything would be straightforward, and a great way to let people know right away that nothing is certain. TFA was great but it was somewhat predictable. I didn’t read spoilers, but I knew Han was dead the second he walked on that bridge. I was accidentally spoiled for parts of TLJ, but I still found myself gasping with my hand over my mouth most of the movie. Each twist made sense and it didn’t feel like it was there just to have a twist (with perhaps the exception of DJ). I can’t wait to see it again as I feel I will get much more from a second viewing.

 

[BrianLo]

Obliged to defend R1. I thought Rogue One's character development was outstandingly-handled, even more so for a cast of people you'd only know for a short while, particularly its leads: Jyn and Cassian. I understood each character's motivation and background clearly and bought into why they were doing what they were doing - it was a leanly- and intelligently-scripted Star Wars movie, which is rare (save Vader's "choke on your ambitions" groaner).

I actually cared about R1's characters by film's end, something I can't say about any characters by the end of Last Jedi (except Chewie), a testament to what I think is much lower level of script, casting and performance in Johnson's film than R1.

***
I'd like to like "Last Jedi", even though I didn't on first viewing. Which is why I'm on this board right now. Clearly, intelligent people whose opinions I respect, got something out of it that I didn't.

Some of my bias may extend from reading Catalyst before the fact. Rogue One had a much harder job to do to get you to care about a cast of people in a single outing. Perhaps character development is selling it short, but several of the cast were short on... charisma?

BTW I like all three movies, all three are incredibly different though, perhaps the source of all the whiplash.

TFA gives us the hot shot pilot, the turncoat who bumbles strictly selfishly - or for a friend and the Mary Sue.

TLJ really puts those three characterizations through its paces. None of them had an easy road...

Spoiler

From Poe being dragged through the mud, one failed plan after another with the Resistance death toll largely being his direct responsibility. Or his ego towards command, which was stripped and put into place. Finn finally believes in a cause other than a sole individual and was willing to sacrifice himself for the Resistance, not just Rey. Meanwhile Rey (and the audience who are a proxy for her) really learned a hard lesson that elements of good in someone will always prevail.

Not to mention what the movie did to Luke, maybe a sticking point for some who prefer their childhood white knight, but there was more to Luke in this movie than his entire trilogy. I think Kylo is easily the most nuanced 'villain' they've ever developed in Star Wars. He came a long way from the snivelling tantrum brat in TFA.

I'm wondering if this movie will go the opposite way of TFA - meaning the initial reaction was overwhelmingly positive and weeks to months later TFA really became increasingly rejected.

 

[Princess Leia]

"Fans" need to calm down and realize they have just been given an epic movie. I just finished watching this for the second time. Admittedly, the plot was thick with twists and turns that didn't go the way I thought, or the way many fans would have expected. However, they are overlooking one of the most bold and enlightening movies in the franchise. "Fans" think they already know what Star Wars is. They think they know what "The Force" is. They think they know how characters should act. This movie took their adolescent level understanding and tried to broaden it to new heights. Like a kid in his first day of Physics or Trigonometry, they were uncomfortable and just wanted to go back to adding and subtracting and making solar systems out of Styrofoam for the science fair. TLJ expands the Star Wars universe along with our understanding of "The Force" and it's abilities. Once the real fans re-watch this film a few times it will become as beloved as The Empire Strikes Back. There are so many levels to this movie that most "fans" have not even noticed yet, and they are already trying to write it off.

SPOILERS:

1. Most probably didn't notice the Jedi text books in the drawer that Finn takes the blanket out of on the Millennium Falcon. Clearly Rey had taken them out of the tree sanctuary before leaving the island since she had concluded Luke was not going to help. Yoda implies this as the tree sanctuary is burning with his statement to Luke that the wisdom found in those books Rey already possesses.

2. So Luke uses a "new ability" in the force. Get over it. "Fans" think they already know everything that can happen. Fans love the ever expanding knowledge of the Star Wars universe that new films bring. The reason Luke dies is well explained within the movie itself. When Rey and Ben are force-linked the very first time Ben says he knows Rey isn't doing it because the effort involved would kill her. In their situation they can only see each other, not their surroundings. Luke's intensity causes his presence to be so real that his sister AND Ben, both highly force sensitive are fooled into believing Luke is really there. However, they do a fantastic job in telling you he isn't really there. If you watch Ben's foot as he plants and digs in for the fight against Luke the salt on Crait's surface scuffs and reveals the red surface. A brief glimpse at Luke's foot making a similar move shows that no foot print is made at all.


END OF SPOILERS


I surely hope mouthy "fans" don't taint the viewpoint of would-be Star Wars moviegoers. One thing I do know about Disney is that money is the bottom line. So, if sales dip after the first weekend because of bad reviews they are going to be too scared to provide a fantastically daring finale to this trilogy...a tragedy for the REAL fans.

Can you put these in a spoiler tag? It doesn’t really bother me since I saw the movie tonight, but for the people who haven’t.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

For everyone who thinks this movie lacked character development, you really need to re-watch it.

Rogue One's biggest flaw was a complete lack of character development. One of TFA's flaws was one-note, single motivation characterizations.

TLJ character development was outrageously nuanced and better than most Star Wars movies. I think that's the problem some long time SW fans have, they are used to very single purpose characterizations - this was not that movie.

Lol...you're saying it's too deep?

I can see it for 2...maybe 3 characters being well developed...at most...

What about the other 15 rammed in there?