Just saw it - pretty disappointing; especially the first hour. Felt more like a TV series than a Star Wars movie.
Having said that - there is one scene that is in my top 3 all-time Star Wars scenes which made it worthwhile. So many more things I want to express but don't want to spoil it; I'll just say I think I didn't like it for the same reasons I hardly watch ESPN anymore.
Still processing, but I'll be honest...TLJ on its own would have been one thing, but the problem is that it completely contradicted TFA and the story it set up. In retrospect, it made all of the criticism I have been defending TFA against for the past two years true and valid about it just being
a "Mary Sue" story, and how clear the obvious subtext was (TFA just hits you on the dang head with it, it's so obvious when you rewatch it) was completely erased and they have instead gone down the ridiculous Twilight-level teen fantasy romance garbage path.
TFA literally makes no sense now, and even if they completely reverse course with a big "just kidding!" in the next film, it just makes it terrible storytelling.
Not to mention, while Leia wasn't totally shat upon like she was last time, she still was sidelined and now that Fisher is gone, it's a lot easier to just let go of "new" Star Wars for me. Episode IX will never be the film it was supposed to be - hers - and what they did with this one just made me so completely disinterested in what they do with the new characters, I'll probably just wait to watch it when it comes out on video.
Ultimately, the ST is going to be like the PT for me - some good moments of fan service that I will look forward to rewatching, movies that are generally visually interesting (though in this case - I just thought Snoke's throne room looked like unfinished CGI, I don't get all the praise), but ultimately I just don't have much emotional connection to or care about the overarching plot lines/characters of, with very few exceptions.
You're not alone. I went into the theater last night with high expectations, and came out with the least bit of care or concern with what happens next in the saga.
As for the way I feel about Star Wars, there will always be fond memories of experiencing past movies, and we'll always have the original trilogy to appreciate (and Rogue One for me & others who highly enjoyed it), but as far as what comes next, I think Luke himself couldn't have said it any better:
To the people pointing to the RT scores, as well as complaining here, ever think the people downvoting the movie are the contrarian never satisfied types (who also complained about TFA?)
To the people pointing to the RT scores, as well as complaining here, ever think the people downvoting the movie are the contrarian never satisfied types (who also complained about TFA?)
I just checked over at metacritic.com to see if that site was getting as wide of a gap between critic and audience opinion as rottentomatoes is currently getting. This is what metacritic is saying so far. I have never seen such a divide like this ever before for any movie. View attachment 250594
This is EXACTLY what I thought was gonna happen walking out...I can't lie.
And to be clear: Star Wars is so special to me for some tragic reasons growing up...I want it to be a go to source of entertainment forever...
But I can't turn my brain off and shovel dirt for it...
Just as I couldn't in 1999. If I pump tires on movies that are not up to snuff...it makes you foolish longterm.
I saw justice league 2 weeks ago...and while it had all the things critics said: crazy plot, some bad acting, weak villian...affleck...
I was smiling at the end. The critic/user scores are the opposite and it works. At least enough where I'm not looking for reasons to have kinda liked it.
It just seems that for 30 years...whoever was writing/directing have been trying to disprove why it was popular in the first place. And that is they really WEREN'T kids movies. At least that not how they ended up. And that ending has produced $75 billion in licensed product and rising.
Why isnt the customer right? We're still here and likely aren't gonna die before Star Wars does (definitely if they keep making spinoff movies of backstories already told)
Here's a bold idea: target Gen X. Make it for the old crotchety...what do you have to lose?
Nothing is the answer. One time.
Will the teens not show up and the toys not sell? My theory is it will sell way more...and the next one and the next one. For a longer term.
Need to reverse the train a little. I don't need cameos and old jokes for "fan service"...
A plot from point A to point B with no dead end side stories and having everything referenced EXPLAINED would be the ultimate fan service.
They are allowed themselves to not like something just for that reason. Also if you actually read most of the criticism on here, most of its because of pointless storylines that went nowehere. Not pet theories not turning out the way they want.
They are allowed themselves to not like something just for that reason. Also if you actually read most of the criticism on here, most of its because of pointless storylines that went nowehere. Not pet theories not turning out the way they want.
I'm not just talking about criticisms here. Criticisms I am seeing on Twitter and Facebook as well. And not liking a movie because not having what you want to happen in the plot is immature and trite. I have accepted long ago that Star Wars is not really science fiction. It is high fantasy in space. And that's okay. You can do a lot of different things with the setting. But because of that, y'all have to realize that there are different types of Star Wars fans.
Going into it, I was hoping The Force Awakens was a little darker and a little more mature and it wasn't what I was expecting. I still enjoyed it and I still considered it "good" even if it isn't my favorite. Some fans want the light and fluffy fun adventure movies. That's fine. The Force Awakens is that movie and there is a place, and should be a place, for that in Star Wars. The original trilogy definitely had that, and the prequels absurdly so (until the tonal shift in Revenge of the Sith in the third act became an entirely different movie - even though it was devoid of emotion and was pure spectacle).
Then there are those of who want and like grimdark and some harder military scifi elements in Star Wars. We may be a minority but we exist. You need some grimdark, you need the good guys to lose, because when that happens, it makes the victories so much sweeter. Rogue One to a lesser extent, and especially The Last Jedi, was that movie for that kind of fan base.
The Last Jedi was a simple story. Military scifi typically is a smaller, simpler story, but the characters and actions make it tense and dramatic. This Star Wars reminded me of the episode of "33" of the [rebooted] Battlestar Galatica but with all the Jedi lore and Force goodness to make is undoubtedly Star Wars.
Where The Last Jedi xcelled was execution. It was darker and mature and the Rebels, er, Resistance, got their butts handed to them back and front. AND IT WAS GREAT! And the payoff in Episode IX, when they win, will be even sweeter had they not lost but lived to see another day.
Still processing, but I'll be honest...TLJ on its own would have been one thing, but the problem is that it completely contradicted TFA and the story it set up. In retrospect, it made all of the criticism I have been defending TFA against for the past two years true and valid about it just being
a "Mary Sue" story, and how clear the obvious subtext was (TFA just hits you on the dang head with it, it's so obvious when you rewatch it) was completely erased and they have instead gone down the ridiculous Twilight-level teen fantasy romance garbage path.
TFA literally makes no sense now, and even if they completely reverse course with a big "just kidding!" in the next film, it just makes it terrible storytelling.
Not to mention, while Leia wasn't totally shat upon like she was last time, she still was sidelined and now that Fisher is gone, it's a lot easier to just let go of "new" Star Wars for me. Episode IX will never be the film it was supposed to be - hers - and what they did with this one just made me so completely disinterested in what they do with the new characters, I'll probably just wait to watch it when it comes out on video.
Ultimately, the ST is going to be like the PT for me - some good moments of fan service that I will look forward to rewatching, movies that are generally visually interesting (though in this case - I just thought Snoke's throne room looked like unfinished CGI, I don't get all the praise), but ultimately I just don't have much emotional connection to or care about the overarching plot lines/characters of, with very few exceptions.
May I ask why you think it’s going to go the stereotypical teen romance route? I agree that we will see a Kylo and Rey romance but I fail to see why that would be bad. It’s a neat parallel to Anakin and Padme’s arc, I think. Don’t get me wrong, the prequels aren’t the pinnacle of filmmaking. But Anakin falling to the dark side because of Padme and Kylo coming to the light because of Rey seems very poetic. I will admit that I am a teen girl, so my opinion probably doesn’t mean much to you. I would point out the allusions in their relationship to the Death and the Maiden trope, as well as others, but I don’t want to waste your time. I think Kylo’s redemption will be a moving story, but I would like to see why you think you don’t think so.
I'm not just talking about criticisms here. Criticisms I am seeing on Twitter and Facebook as well. And not liking a movie because not having what you want to happen in the plot is immature and trite. I have accepted long ago that Star Wars is not really science fiction. It is high fantasy in space. And that's okay. You can do a lot of different things with the setting. But because of that, y'all have to realize that there are different types of Star Wars fans.
Going into it, I was hoping The Force Awakens was a little darker and a little more mature and it wasn't what I was expecting. I still enjoyed it and I still considered it "good" even if it isn't my favorite. Some fans want the light and fluffy fun adventure movies. That's fine. The Force Awakens is that movie and there is a place, and should be a place, for that in Star Wars. The original trilogy definitely had that, and the prequels absurdly so (until the tonal shift in Revenge of the Sith in the third act became an entirely different movie - even though it was devoid of emotion and was pure spectacle).
Then there are those of who want and like grimdark and some harder military scifi elements in Star Wars. We may be a minority but we exist. You need some grimdark, you need the good guys to lose, because when that happens, it makes the victories so much sweeter. Rogue One to a lesser extent, and especially The Last Jedi, was that movie for that kind of fan base.
The Last Jedi was a simple story. Military scifi typically is a smaller, simpler story, but the characters and actions make it tense and dramatic. This Star Wars reminded me of the episode of "33" of the [rebooted] Battlestar Galatica but with all the Jedi lore and Force goodness to make is undoubtedly Star Wars.
Where The Last Jedi xcelled was execution. It was darker and mature and the Rebels, er, Resistance, got their butts handed to them back and front. AND IT WAS GREAT! And the payoff in Episode IX, when they win, will be even sweeter had they not lost but lived to see another day.
I'm leaning toward disagreeing with most of your take...
Except the BSG 33 reference...that was on point. Problem is that was episodic tv with 60 some more hours to work with.
Youre last sentence is really where my immediate discontent is: it doesn't seem
For there to be ANYWHERE to go with this except unexplained comments from a dead woman...literally...
What Abrams and Johnson have done is "shrunk the galaxy" to a point where it doesn't really matter. In a way stooping to some of the prequel tricks that didn't work either. Except george expanded it with the same result.
I don't want to go into an essay...but there
A lot of examples to build a damning case.
And again...it's partially to reject the success of empire and jedi...
I'm leaning toward disagreeing with most of your take...
Except the BSG 33 reference...that was on point. Problem is that was episodic tv with 60 some more hours to work with.
Youre last sentence is really where my immediate discontent is: it doesn't seem
For there to be ANYWHERE to go with this except unexplained comments from a dead woman...literally...
What Abrams and Johnson have done is "shrunk the galaxy" to a point where it doesn't really matter. In a way stopping to some of the prequel tricks that didn't work either.
I don't want to go into an essay...but there
A lot of examples to build a damning case.
And again...it's partially to reject the success of empire and jedi...
As a fan, I like when a franchise tells me I am wrong. The Pokemon company has been doing to me for a few games now and I think that isn't a bad thing. Keeps a franchise fresh and new and accessible to a new and casual fans.
As for shrinking the galaxy, both the Battlefront DLC and the ending to The Last Jedi talk about "allies in the Outer Rim." The Outer Rim, canonically, is still the largest section of the galaxy and the one most explored in canon and the one where a lot of the cool weird aliens live (the Hutts have a strong hold on the Outer Rim, Endor and Sullust are in the Outer Rim, bounty hunters and scum run amuck in the Outer Rim, a lot of the CIS were Outer Rim planets, the Chiss are adjacent to the Outer Rim in the Unknown Regions). Having a smaller, more intimate story that "shrinks" the galaxy and to focus on just a few characters, to explode into a larger final confrontation in Episode IX.
That's what this movie has done - set the table for a true plucky band of a thrown together rebellion to fight a huge fascist war machine (especially since they don't have Daddy Warbucks Bail Organa footing the bill this time around).
May I ask why you think it’s going to go the stereotypical teen romance route? I agree that we will see a Kylo and Rey romance but I fail to see why that would be bad. It’s a neat parallel to Anakin and Padme’s arc, I think. Don’t get me wrong, the prequels aren’t the pinnacle of filmmaking. But Anakin falling to the dark side because of Padme and Kylo coming to the light because of Rey seems very poetic. I will admit that I am a teen girl, so my opinion probably doesn’t mean much to you. I would point out the allusions in their relationship to the Death and the Maiden trope, as well as others, but I don’t want to waste your time. I think Kylo’s redemption will be a moving story, but I would like to see why you think you don’t think so.
If they go the route your suggesting...it's just a repeat of a prior trilogy again with the roles reassigned...and that's what Disney REJECTED Lucas's ideas for...
I don't get why you would do that.
These movies aren't "deep" necessary...but they are not nealry as shallow as disney is treating them. I honestly think gareth Edwards is the ONLY one Involved so far that has gotten it...
If they go the route your suggesting...it's just a repeat of a prior trilogy again with the roles reassigned...and that's what Disney REJECTED Lucas's ideas for...
I don't get why you would do that.
These movies aren't "deep" necessary...but they are not nealry as shallow as disney is treating them. I honestly think gareth Edwards is the ONLY one Involved so far that has gotten it...
Or they're setting up a love triangle, which kind of echos the one between Han-Leia-Luke but never really explored outside the kiss on Hoth.
Also, we don't really know how awful Lucas' ideas where or why Disney decided to do their own thing, but if the prequels are an indication they weren't going to be good
To the people pointing to the RT scores, as well as complaining here, ever think the people downvoting the movie are the contrarian never satisfied types (who also complained about TFA?)
I vehemently defended TFA. And this film blew every argument I had as to why it was good out of the water. Basically every criticism of the character of Rey, and everything associated came true. It basically makes TFA just make no sense whatsoever. It's like they listened to Tumblr posts about what Twilight fans wanted it to be, and completely changed direction.
To be more specific -
there is evidence in scene after scene - even directly in the dialogue - of TFA that Rey and Kylo were somehow related. That Rey had been previously trained as a Jedi and just didn't have memory of it. She is on this planet and supposedly has never left, yet somehow the Falcon happens to be there, somehow she is able to get on board it and know all the controls, knows enough about its systems to then pilot it expertly, how to repair it, knows how to do Jedi mind tricks with zero training whatsoever, expertly wields a lightsaber against someone who has been training his whole life...yet she really is just some freaking nobody and instead of being related to Kylo, they never met before he kidnapped and tortured her and now they are in some epic Fifty-Shades-garbage love story.
It makes no freaking sense whatsover. It contradicts so much directly about TFA, as well - why did Kylo care about "the girl" they escaped with to begin with when he had his little temper tantrum? And watch Harrison's performance in TFA - he's not the most subtle actor ever, watch his face as he interacts with Rey. Spend special focus on his face when she tells his story - he looks so freaking guilty, like he was some part of why she suffered for so long.
If it's all some big "just kidding!" to be revealed in the next film, as I said, it's pee poor storytelling - but that doesn't seem to make sense given how Snoke says "you were bested by a girl who never held a saber before" - they really are going with this "nobody" bullcrap, as evidenced by how they clearly are setting up some romantic thing with Rey and Kylo that frankly, makes me sick - it's the worst most misogynistic trope one could imagine. Girl falls for man who abused and tortured her, tried to kill her - because she can "change him".
It's not that it "wasn't what I wanted" - it's that it doesn't make any sense.
It basically makes TFA look as dumb as fan criticism said it was, and those who defended it look foolish. It can't decide what it is - the continuity of an 80's slasher series with the plotting of a bad Game of Thrones rip-off, and mixed with absolutely insipid, outdated girlhood "romantic" fantasies at this point.
As a fan, I like when a franchise tells me I am wrong. The Pokemon company has been doing to me for a few games now and I think that isn't a bad thing. Keeps a franchise fresh and new and accessible to a new and casual fans.
As for shrinking the galaxy, both the Battlefront DLC and the ending to The Last Jedi talk about "allies in the Outer Rim." The Outer Rim, canonically, is still the largest section of the galaxy and the one most explored in canon and the one where a lot of the cool weird aliens live (the Hutts have a strong hold on the Outer Rim, Endor and Sullust are in the Outer Rim, bounty hunters and scum run amuck in the Outer Rim, a lot of the CIS were Outer Rim planets, the Chiss are adjacent to the Outer Rim in the Unknown Regions). Having a smaller, more intimate story that "shrinks" the galaxy and to focus on just a few characters, to explode into a larger final confrontation in Episode IX.
That's what this movie has done - set the table for a true plucky band of a thrown together rebellion to fight a huge fascist war machine (especially since they don't have Daddy Warbucks Bail Organa footing the bill this time around).
I vehemently defended TFA. And this film blew every argument I had as to why it was good out of the water. Basically every criticism of the character of Rey, and everything associated came true. It basically makes TFA just make no sense whatsoever. It's like they listened to Tumblr posts about what Twilight fans wanted it to be, and completely changed direction.
To be more specific -
there is evidence in scene after scene - even directly in the dialogue - of TFA that Rey and Kylo were somehow related. They Rey had been previously trained as a Jedi and just didn't have memory of it. She is on this planet and supposedly has never left, yet somehow the Falcon happens to be there, somehow she is able to get on board it and know all the controls, knows enough about its systems to then pilot it expertly, how to repair it, knows how to do Jedi mind tricks with zero training whatsoever, expertly wields a lightsaber against someone who has been training his whole life...yet she really is just some freaking nobody and instead of being related to Kylo, they never met before he kidnapped and tortured her and now they are in some epic Twilight-garbage love story.
It makes no freaking sense whatsover. It contradicts so much directly about TFA, as well - why did Kylo care about "the girl" they escaped with to begin with when he had his little temper tantrum? And watch Harrison's performance in TFA - he's not the most subtle actor ever, watch his face as he interacts with Rey. Spend special focus on his face when she tells his story - he looks so freaking guilty, like he was some part of why she suffered for so long.
If it's all some big "just kidding!" as I said, it's pee poor storytelling - but that doesn't seem to make sense given how Snoke says "you were bested by a girl who never held a saber before" - they really are going with this "nobody" bullcrap, as evidenced by how they clearly are setting up some romantic thing with Rey and Kylo that frankly, makes me sick - it's the worst most misogynistic trope one could imagine. Girl falls for man who abused and tortured her, tried to kill her - because she can "change him".
It's not that it "wasn't what I wanted" - it's that it doesn't make any sense.
It basically makes TFA look as dumb as fan criticism said it was, and those who defended it look foolish. It can't decide what it is - the continuity of an 80's slasher series with the plotting of a bad Game of Thrones rip-off and insipid, mixed with outdated girlhood "romantic" fantasies at this point.
1) how do we know that Kylo wasn't lying about her parents, to manipulate her to join him and 2) people point to the question he asks as "what girl?" in TFA as a hint but I took it more as an exacerbated Kylo, prone to temper tantrums, just given more bad news by a subordinate
