Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi NO SPOILERS!!!!

[AEfx]

Replying to the spoilers...

Spoiler

May I ask why you think it’s going to go the stereotypical teen romance route? I agree that we will see a Kylo and Rey romance but I fail to see why that would be bad. It’s a neat parallel to Anakin and Padme’s arc, I think. Don’t get me wrong, the prequels aren’t the pinnacle of filmmaking. But Anakin falling to the dark side because of Padme and Kylo coming to the light because of Rey seems very poetic. I will admit that I am a teen girl, so my opinion probably doesn’t mean much to you. I would point out the allusions in their relationship to the Death and the Maiden trope, as well as others, but I don’t want to waste your time. I think Kylo’s redemption will be a moving story, but I would like to see why you think you don’t think so.

Because not only does it completely contradict TFA,

Spoiler

Padme fell in love with Anakin when he was good. All Rey has known about Kylo Ren is that he is an evil killer - she watched him kill his own father, after he kidnapped and tortured her. What makes it "teenage" IMO is the fact that the only thing "romantic" about him is his appearance - that homely, broody guy with frilly long girlish hair - how he looks when he whisks that mask off and his locks fall to the side. The fact that they went this route was just pandering to adolescent, misogynistic tropes. [/spoiler[

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Or they're setting up a love triangle, which kind of echos the one between Han-Leia-Luke but never really explored outside the kiss on Hoth.

Also, we don't really know how awful Lucas' ideas where or why Disney decided to do their own thing, but if the prequels are an indication they weren't going to be good

The original trilogy was Not a love triangle...at the end the day is was a hero's tale that took place within a family dynamic.

I never rejected Rey till this moment...but the reality is we don't need her dancing the line between empowered heroine and a primal female creature at the hands of nature...

If that's the endgame? We are in prequels territory...it's just anakin flipped on its ear.

I'm fighting the urge right now not to queue up Yub Yub and pretend like it's the end...i can't see how it ever got this way...

 

[AEfx]

To your points:

Spoiler

1) how do we know that Kylo wasn't lying about her parents, to manipulate her to join him and 2) people point to the question he asks as "what girl?" in TFA as a hint but I took it more as an exacerbated Kylo, prone to temper tantrums, just given more bad news by a subordinate

As I said, if it's all a big ruse to drag it out another film, it's poor storytelling.

Spoiler

It also means somehow Snoke has no idea but Kylo does?

I think you need to watch TFA again, he doesn't get truly enraged until

Spoiler

he hears about "the girl" - he so clearly knows who she is and that she is important, as does everyone else in the film. I mean, the Leia hug? How does Leia even know who the hell she is when she walks off the ship? It's in scene after scene.

 

[AEfx]

I never rejected Rey till this moment...but the reality is we don't need her dancing the line between empowered heroine and a primal female creature at the hands of nature...

I can't wait for the SJW's to get a hold of this. It makes the whole "progressive" Star Wars thing go straight out the window, then stomps on it, chews it up, and spits it back out just to spite them. And in this case...they wouldn't be wrong.

 

[ProfSavage]

The original trilogy was Not a love triangle...at the end the day is was a hero's tale that took place within a family dynamic.

I never rejected Rey till this moment...but the reality is we don't need her dancing the line between empowered heroine and a primal female creature at the hands of nature...

If that's the endgame? We are in prequels territory...it's just anakin flipped on its ear.

I'm fighting the urge right now not to queue up Yub Yub and pretend like it's the end...i can't see how it ever got this way...

Yeah, okay, and Lucas had the whole three movies planned out ahead of time

The rest of that, I don't know where you're getting that from

 

[ProfSavage]

How I feel in this thread haha

 

[AEfx]

Yeah, okay, and Lucas had the whole three movies planned out ahead of time

That's why holding up examples from it are not really an argument. While not nearly as bad as the issues with the PT (where Lucas was the sole writer), at least the OT (particularly with ESB and ROTJ) were plotted out by multiple writers who challenged Lucas' tendency to write poorly.

The point is, it is now 2017 with many, many people involved - so they just shouldn't be falling into the same traps that they should have learned from now that this is the third time around. They clearly didn't have this trilogy any more planned out than the other two were, which was supposed to be the big plus getting Disney and the "story team" behind it was going to do.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah, okay, and Lucas had the whole three movies planned out ahead of time

The rest of that, I don't know where you're getting that from

I'm not saying he did...merely theres a template that worked better than practically any other movies ever made...

And I'm convinced that Kurtz and kirshner really were the driving force...with kasdan...

And Lucas hated them for it.

 

[AEfx]

How I feel in this thread haha

Funny you should pick that one...because while it certainly was an epic battle scene, everything around it (and Jon Snow's apparent temporary Force powers) is pretty much reviled as the worst plotting of anything in GoT aside from the Dorne travesty...LOL.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's why holding up examples from it are not really an argument. While not nearly as bad as the issues with the PT (where Lucas was the sole writer), at least the OT (particularly with ESB and ROTJ) were plotted out by multiple writers who challenged Lucas' tendency to write poorly.

The point is, it is now 2017 with many, many people involved - so they just shouldn't be falling into the same traps that they should have learned from now that this is the third time around. They clearly didn't have this trilogy any more planned out than the other two were, which was supposed to be the big plus getting Disney and the "story team" behind it was going to do.

I agree..they are repeating the "same" mistakes without yielding a product that's even fun...

How is that even possible?

 

[ProfSavage]

Funny you should pick that one...because while it certainly was an epic battle scene, everything around it (and Jon Snow's apparent temporary Force powers) is pretty much reviled as the worst plotting of anything in GoT aside from the Dorne travesty...LOL.

What? That battle was one of the... I can't tell if you're trolling or being purposefully pedantic

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

What? That battle was one of the... I can't tell if you're trolling or being purposefully pedantic

That sequence kinda is the benchmark from where the show pivoted from "fantasy"...to "come onnnnnn!?!?"

Kinda been downhill ever since

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

Because not only does it completely contradict TFA,

Spoiler

Padme fell in love with Anakin when he was good. All Rey has known about Kylo Ren is that he is an evil killer - she watched him kill his own father, after he kidnapped and tortured her. What makes it "teenage" IMO is the fact that the only thing "romantic" about him is his appearance - that homely, broody guy with frilly long girlish hair - how he looks when he whisks that mask off and his locks fall to the side. The fact that they went this route was just pandering to adolescent, misogynistic tropes. [/spoiler[

Spoiler

Let me be clear: I don’t think Rey is going to fall for Kylo Ren, ever (attracted? Maybe.) But Ben Solo? Yeah, probably. I don't want to see Rey fall in love with Kylo while he's still Kylo. I want Kylo to redeem himself, not just for Rey, but for Leia, his father, Luke, and himself. I don't think there are any signs of attraction between the two in TFA, but there are allusions to tropes. This is the main one:

There are also quite a few parallels to the story of Hades and Persephone. There is an excellent essay that delves into detail about this and other allusions, but I can't link it here. Keep in mind, these parallels were made in January 2016. If these relationships are "teenage," then I suppose I want a teenage Star Wars story. I personally don't think they are.

 

[AEfx]

What? That battle was one of the... I can't tell if you're trolling or being purposefully pedantic

The battle itself. Yes. Epic. But his whole "I'm so lucky that the Gods protect me over and over in nonsensical ways", the whole "Sansa doesn't tell him about the Vale", the entire Jon Snow being so dumb as to fall for the trick with Rickon...plot wise, it's a mess. Epic battle, terrible set-up, and resolution.

 

[AEfx]

Spoiler

Let me be clear: I don’t think Rey is going to fall for Kylo Ren, ever (attracted? Maybe.) But Ben Solo? Yeah, probably. I don't want to see Rey fall in love with Kylo while he's still Kylo. I want Kylo to redeem himself, not just for Rey, but for Leia, his father, Luke, and himself. I don't think there are any signs of attraction between the two in TFA, but there are allusions to tropes. This is the main one:

Yes, I am so well aware of people basing this off of two shots in a film. I have heard all the arguments. I've read the essay. Terrible, antiquated tropes that are adolescent in nature based on male fantasy. I realize that a lot of people who thought this were middle-aged women, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't based on adolescent fantasy. They clearly did this for commercial reasons, because story-wise, it's just awful and as your pics pointed out, has been done so many times before.

Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are also the same person. "There is good in him, I know it. If only you could see him when he's not like this..." - so said every woman who has stayed in an abusive relationship, ever. It's just sad trope after trope designed to bring in repeat box office from female moviegoers who want to see that stuff. I'm utterly convinced that is the only reason they actually went this route, because TFA, as successful as it was, didn't get the repeat box office that they wanted. They want these girls to come back and swoon over Mister Wavy Hair Non-threatening Looking Misguided Boyman over and over.

It's just sad. Up until now I have railed against the criticism of how Disney has handled Star Wars, now I know...

...it was true. All of it.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

If they go the route your suggesting...it's just a repeat of a prior trilogy again with the roles reassigned...and that's what Disney REJECTED Lucas's ideas for...

I don't get why you would do that.
These movies aren't "deep" necessary...but they are not nealry as shallow as disney is treating them. I honestly think gareth Edwards is the ONLY one Involved so far that has gotten it...

Spoiler

Ideally, how would you have liked to see this trilogy go, if you were given the characters of the sequel trilogy? The idea of Kylo Ren, who wants so desperately to be like his grandfather (and I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that Kylo doesn't know Vader was redeemed), not getting redeemed would be supremely unsatisfying to me. He's obviously conflicted. We see that his mentor tried to kill him. Luke turning on Ben because he thought he was going to go dark was a self fulfilling prophecy. I want more for Han and Leia's son than for him to become irredeemable.

 

[AEfx]

Spoiler

Ideally, how would you have liked to see this trilogy go, if you were given the characters of the sequel trilogy? The idea of Kylo Ren, who wants so desperately to be like his grandfather (and I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that Kylo doesn't know Vader was redeemed), not getting redeemed would be supremely unsatisfying to me. He's obviously conflicted. We see that his mentor tried to kill him. Luke turning on Ben because he thought he was going to go dark was a self fulfilling prophecy. I want more for Han and Leia's son than for him to become irredeemable.

To be honest, you really just pointed out what is the biggest flaw in the entire OT.

Spoiler

Darth Vader wasn't "redeemed" - he murdered thousands upon thousands of people. Caused untold suffering for millions. He did one good thing at the very end of his life. That Rey would similarly love Ben after he has done the same thing, is just...beyond awful storytelling. Especially since she did not know him before hand. To answer your question - they should have been siblings, as TFA painstakingly tried to subtextualize that was completely thrown out the window here. The good, and the bad. The light, and the dark.

Rey could have been the good, the light. Now she's just a sad romantic trope in a Mary Sue package.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

Yes, I am so well aware of people basing this off of two shots in a film. I have heard all the arguments. I've read the essay. Terrible, antiquated tropes that are adolescent in nature based on male fantasy. I realize that a lot of people who thought this were middle-aged women, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't based on adolescent fantasy. They clearly did this for commercial reasons, because story-wise, it's just awful and as your pics pointed out, has been done so many times before.

Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are also the same person. "There is good in him, I know it. If only you could see him when he's not like this..." - so said every woman who has stayed in an abusive relationship, ever. It's just sad trope after trope designed to bring in repeat box office from female moviegoers who want to see that stuff. I'm utterly convinced that is the only reason they actually went this route, because TFA, as successful as it was, didn't get the repeat box office that they wanted. They want these girls to come back and swoon over Mister Wavy Hair Non-threatening Looking Misguided Boyman over and over.

It's just sad. Up until now I have railed against the criticism of how Disney has handled Star Wars, now I know...

...it was true. All of it.

We're obviously not going to agree on this, but I want to point out that the majority of the audience thought Rey was a Skywalker or that Kylo was her brother. It has been confirmed that the plot of the saga was plotted before TFA even came out, so they're not doing this just to please a small part of the fanbase. I will admit, that as a female Star Wars fan, the assumption that I would only see the films so I could "swoon over Mister Wavy Hair Non-threatening Looking Misguided Boyman" is insulting. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 11 years old. I am now a senior in high school. Ahsoka Tano- who is one of the strongest females in Star Wars -is my favorite character. I waited in line for 2 hours to meet her voice actress. I saw Rogue One five times. I do not need male eye candy for me to enjoy these films. For you to imply that the female audience only cares about Adam Driver's abs is the same as me insinuating that males only see Star Wars for the violence. This may be true for some people, but I go for the plot. You are underestimating the female audience.

Luke said the same of Darth Vader: "There is still good in him." Obviously, the relationship between Rey and Kylo will be vastly different than that of Luke and Vader. I will be perfectly content if there is no romance between Rey and Ben at the end of this trilogy. I will be perfectly content if Ben dies redeemed.

 

[AEfx]

The Last Jedi scores Lower Than Justice League with Fans

 

[AEfx]

We're obviously not going to agree on this, but I want to point out that the majority of the audience thought Rey was a Skywalker or that Kylo was her brother. It has been confirmed that the plot of the saga was plotted before TFA even came out, so they're not doing this just to please a small part of the fanbase. I will admit, that as a female Star Wars fan, the assumption that I would only see the films so I could "swoon over Mister Wavy Hair Non-threatening Looking Misguided Boyman" is insulting. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 11 years old. I am now a senior in high school. Ahsoka Tano- who is one of the strongest females in Star Wars -is my favorite character. I waited in line for 2 hours to meet her voice actress. I saw Rogue One five times. I do not need male eye candy for me to enjoy these films. For you to imply that the female audience only cares about Adam Driver's abs is the same as me insinuating that males only see Star Wars for the violence. This may be true for some people, but I go for the plot. You are underestimating the female audience.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that is you. But the female audience that does go to see films over and over, which apparently they are going for with this, is exactly what this is aimed at. They are the ones that made Titanic the hit that it was. They are the ones that go to see Fifty Shades of Abuse and make them hits.

It is a segment of the female audience that goes to see films over and over due to these outdated tropes.

I too am all about female heroines. All of my favorite movies have them. My entire love of Star Wars is because of Princess Leia. That's why I can never forgive the prequels for what they did to Padme - she died of a broken heart. Boo-hoo. All because Lucas (who fully admits this) wrote himself into a hole and didn't have time to properly deal with her character as he had to make Anakin go from brat to mass-murder in one film because he spent too much time on Pod Races and Arena junk while setting up the main story.

Spoiler

It is such a disservice to Rey that her development is relegated to gaining Mary Sue powers that clearly are being now set up to save a man by the strength of her "love" for him after he kidnapped and basically mind raped her. That her entire function is now to find a way to make a man be a "better person".

I thought we were past this stuff...