Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi NO SPOILERS!!!!

[ProfSavage]

I loved it! Much like Rogue One, I felt there were flaws where they could do something different but they're minor gripes compared to the overall movie. This may be the best since Empire, it may even overshadow Empire in some areas.

The humor was spot on to what it was in the OT, the cinematography was gorgeous, the John Williams and his use of leitmotif was right out of the classic Star Wars playbook. There were two scenes I was worried about and they were executed well.

Spoiler: SPOILER

Leia's "Mary Poppins" moment and the stableboy at the end. Both sounded stupid by leakers, were a lot better and better executed than I could have imagined.

There was two things I would have changed, character actions wise,

Spoiler: SPOILER

Finn sacrificing himself should have happened and it should have been Leia to drive Home One through the Supremacy, but I think that decision only looks bad in hindsight because we know Carrie Fisher died in real life.

Otherwise I felt it was a great movie and the best Star Wars movie I've seen in theaters since 1997. It could have ended at the halfway point and it would have been amazing and yet it kept going. The longer runtime allowed everyone to chew the scenery and allowed for character development. I definitely feel like I know these characters better now than I did after The Force Awakens.

Speaking of Empire... while I wasn't around yet, I recall reading where people left the theater after seeing Empire and not liking it/hating it. It was only after repeat viewings and over time did many love it. So I don't know... I wonder how things would have been different had the internet existed back in 1980 as it does now.

I've also seen some people complain about the main plot of the film, but to me, that was pure classic military scifi a la Heinlein and Battlestar Galatica and it was great to see some of that in my fantasy opera about space wizards.

Also, as for critics: I have seen reviews all over the place. One guy in The New Yorker said: "I desperately miss the pseudo-Shakespearean dialectical wrangles and the exhilarating sense of C.G.I. discoveries that mark George Lucas’s last forays into the franchise—their sense of renewed personal investment in a cinematic universe that seemed to be growing ever more complex before its creator’s eyes, their sense that its creator was personally wrestling with a world that was escaping his own control and taking on a life of its own." https://www.newyorker.com/culture/richard-brody/star-wars-the-last-jedi-reviewed

CNN and Variety panned the film... so I don't know where commentators are coming across saying critics have loved it. The best review I saw was from NPR. So 1) take critics with a grain of salt and remember their source and 2) I think it's in the nature of 2017 and the internet culture we live it to automatically hate something online and in the comments. It's contrarian mindset and it removes a lot of objectivity... just imo.

I liked the theme of letting the past die. That was Rian Johnson talking to the fans saying let go to everything we know because we are in uncharted waters. I loved that and I am along for the ride, Lucasfilm! Also, changing the idea that the Force is unique to people with special birth (which drips with Lucas' Boomer worldview) and instead it belongs to everyone.. yes! Again, I am here for it.

I like the direction The Last Jedi took and is taking the series. I am looking forward to Johnson's trilogy and I think JJ Abrams has huge shoes to fill with Episode IX.

 

[RandySavage]

My initial feelings during and after "Last Jedi" aren't very positive, unfortunately.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I will say you can be a Star Wars fan and both like and dislike the modern movies individually. My gut reaction during and after 2016's "Rogue One" was extremely positive. It electrified and awed me - something that almost never happens at the cinemas anymore. I was giddy when I left "Rogue One" and wanted to see it again right away.

In analyzing why it had that effect that none of the other modern Star Wars movies come close to achieving for me, I think it was because "Rogue One" nested into the Original Star Wars Universe of my childhood like no movie since RotJ. It, miraculously, felt and looked like a natural preamble to the 1977-83 films with a smart script, great casting, and elegant fan service. Its production design deserves a huge amount of credit: from ships and locations to hair styles and uniforms - it delivered visuals better than most modern VFX spectaculars, but felt Old School, in the best possible way. Rogue One also avoided my biggest issue with prequels and late sequels of 80s movies (including Alien and Indiana Jones): they mess with the mythos (often damaging it) and rob you of the original Happily Ever After endings.

Rogue One performed another miracle: it significantly improved the original "A New Hope" movie, by upping the stakes and pay-off for the Death Star's destruction, giving some backstory to its creation, explaining its fatal flaw, etc.. And Rogue One did something that is so rare in event films like Star Wars, Middle Earth and MCU: it showed some restraint, making the numerical and tactical differential between the evil minions / good forces look and feel more believable (the Rebel fleet surprised two Star Destroyers during the finale, rather than 50, and still lost the battle, militarily), and made the primary heroes (not just the throwaways) pay a real and dear price for victory.

"Force Awakens", I thought was ably-made (though both the prequel trilogy and sequel trilogy feel a bit like unnaturally-forced fan fiction to me, both in script and production design), but its real promise was in what it was setting up.... "where are they going to take this" and what could be developed and revealed in "Last Jedi" and the third movie. That is where the new film disappoints me the most. Contrary to Rogue One making ANH stronger and better, TLJ makes TFA weaker, in that the characters and storylines TFA introduced were unsatisfactorily (IMO) developed or resolved.

Rogue One lifted my expectations for what SW could be into the stratosphere. Last Jedi brought them back to ground.

 

[wdwgreek]

I dont think 8 should be your reset. There are parts i hated in this movie that if moved to 9 id feel better about. A trilogy is. first movie is introduction to characters second conflict third resolution. To me they failed at character development and theres no reason for a third movie.

So if the second part of a three part arch is supposed to be conflict, conflict by defintion resets the clock. It turns the tide, the victories made in the first 1/3 needed to introduce the characters now have impact. The conflict in the second is caused by the decisions made in the first, be it grudges or connections. i really think this is a above average chapter. I give it an A-.

 

[jt04]

I hear it is a much better movie on a second viewing. And I personally experienced that with TFA and especially RO.

I think it is because SW movies throw so much at you.

 

[BasiltheBatLord]

The more I'm thinking about it the more it's sinking for me. I think it's probably in competition for Attack of the Clones for the worst mainline Star Wars film. It just feels like a mess that wanders around for a while and never goes anywhere. Just kind of flabbergasting to me how all of these new films so far seem to just ignore foundational tenets of plot and character development. At least they can never take the original trilogy away.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Average critical rating for a Disney Marvel movie: 69
Average critical rating for a Star Wars movie: 73
Average critical rating for a Disney Pixar movie: 79
Average critical rating for The Last Jedi: 84, making it the 3rd highest rated SW movie (behind Ep. 4 & 5)

What exactly does any of that mean?

1. Did you see the movie?
2. What do YOU think of it?

It means that the overwhelming majority of reviews were positive and gave TLJ high marks. It means saying that CNN and Variety panned it shows that CNN and Variety are in the minority and people are cherry-picking their reviewers to bolster their opinion. It means people who didn't like it are in the minority.

I saw TLJ and loved it. There were enough tropes being broken and yet some being fulfilled that in the end you really couldn't guess what was going to happen. That's excellent film-making.

And before you ask, I'm old enough that I saw ANH when it was released in theaters, and I'm a big SW fan. So stop trying to make this about newbs to the franchise who don't know what true Star Wars is all about.

Speaking of Empire... while I wasn't around yet, I recall reading where people left the theater after seeing Empire and not liking it/hating it. It was only after repeat viewings and over time did many love it. So I don't know... I wonder how things would have been different had the internet existed back in 1980 as it does now.

Yeah, I remember that. Lots of people were disappointed with ESB at the time. They weren't used to a movie cliffhanger that left the heroes down and out! That surprise reveal out of nowhere! Rage!!

I was actually surprised to hear decades later how many people considered it the best SW movie. Was left very confused about what 'the people' liked. I was an original liker.

 

[Andrew C]

But it is the number on the right

The number on the right....65,000 "random" people gave it an average of 3.4 out of 5?

I think you're putting too much stock into this number.

 

[Andrew C]

Yes. The people buying tickets and taking their children and families to see these movies. Their children who are being introduced to the SW world and will be taking their children to future movies and trilogies long term down the road. The people who's excitement is what keeps SW afloat currently, or disappointment **could** affect the franchise of the future. Yes those random people, us the public do weigh much heavier in where SW goes than those 272 film critics.

I put "random" in quotes for a reason.

I am betting that Disney puts together internal numbers that are a bit more scientific and analytical in nature and will give them a true picture about whether or not they should be worried.

 

[spacemt354]

Yes. The people buying tickets and taking their children and families to see these movies. Their children who are being introduced to the SW world and will be taking their children to future movies and trilogies long term down the road. The people who's excitement is what keeps SW afloat currently, or disappointment **could** affect the franchise of the future. Yes those random people, us the public do weigh much heavier in where SW goes from here long term than those 272 film critics.

The RT Audience Score has no screening process to prove you actually saw the movie, unlike other audience polls like CinemaScore, so I'm not sure that is the best evidence when any random person who may never have even seen the film can post a rating.

 

[Andrew C]

I'm not saying the franchise is dying or even in trouble. Yes the franchise is still rolling strong and I hope that will forever be the situation. One movie is not enough to sink all the greatness this franchise has embedded into pop culture. But they should not be dismissive when you have such a divide between critics and audiences.

Disney is not being dismissive of anything. I am being dismissive of one number on a website that is non-scientific and may not be an accurate representation of how the general public and/or SW fans feel about the movie. You are essentially stating this number tells the full story and Disney should be worried. I am saying it does not. That is all...

 

[AEfx]

Still processing, but I'll be honest...TLJ on its own would have been one thing, but the problem is that it completely contradicted TFA and the story it set up. In retrospect, it made all of the criticism I have been defending TFA against for the past two years true and valid about it just being

Spoiler

a "Mary Sue" story, and how clear the obvious subtext was (TFA just hits you on the dang head with it, it's so obvious when you rewatch it) was completely erased and they have instead gone down the ridiculous Twilight-level teen fantasy romance garbage path.

TFA literally makes no sense now, and even if they completely reverse course with a big "just kidding!" in the next film, it just makes it terrible storytelling.

Not to mention, while Leia wasn't totally shat upon like she was last time, she still was sidelined and now that Fisher is gone, it's a lot easier to just let go of "new" Star Wars for me. Episode IX will never be the film it was supposed to be - hers - and what they did with this one just made me so completely disinterested in what they do with the new characters, I'll probably just wait to watch it when it comes out on video.

Ultimately, the ST is going to be like the PT for me - some good moments of fan service that I will look forward to rewatching, movies that are generally visually interesting (though in this case - I just thought Snoke's throne room looked like unfinished CGI, I don't get all the praise), but ultimately I just don't have much emotional connection to or care about the overarching plot lines/characters of, with very few exceptions.

 

[Clamman73]

Hmmm...sounds like I should wait until it's out on VHS.

 

[spacemt354]

Neither are perfect but they do give a realistic overall consensus of how audiences and critics feel about movies.

Comparison between critic's thoughts and audience thoughts of all SW movies released after the prequels. The balance is not strong in one of these. Just saying.
View attachment 250583

Showing me more 'evidence' from a system I don't trust doesn't validate your point any further. Even in your example image you show how easy it is for anyone (seen the film or not) to give a review (good or bad) - by simply using the 'add a review' function.

 

[AEfx]

I was actually surprised to hear decades later how many people considered it the best SW movie. Was left very confused about what 'the people' liked. I was an original liker.

It's because it has the most depth. The most organic character development. The most nuance (because it's also the one that Lucas had the least to do with, IMO). The most world-building. There are elements of all those things strewn about in the various other films, but ESB did them all in one picture. There is a reason that it, along with GFII, and Aliens, are considered the best sequels of all time. It's because they were different than the original pictures, surpassed them artistically in many ways, and didn't just try to recapture what the first film was.

 

[AEfx]

Hmmm...sounds like I should wait until it's out on VHS.

It's worth seeing only to save yourself from all the spoilers. There are some genuinely cool moments you don't want spoiled. But to reinforce the post I made above - keep in mind I have been a staunch champion of what Disney was (or what I thought they were...) doing with the franchise, and yet...I now won't be counting the days until the next one. A chunk of that is the loss of Fisher, but the other chunk is just that I don't give a crap about the new characters now because of the directions it went.

And it honestly has nothing to do with the one element that the most criticism the film is getting is coming from long time fans - that was completely aside the point for me.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

I’ll read the rest of the thread later, but this film was great. I’m still processing my thoughts.

Spoiler: MASSIVE SPOILERS

I am impressed Rian Johnson had the gall to kill off Luke. I agree with the decision, but wow. I’m still surprised they did that. Major props to him.
And Rey Skywalker is debunked once and for all. Rey and Kylo will be romantically intertwined in Episode 9, that’s for sure. So much tension there, dear lord. One of my only qualms is how tied up the story seems at this point? I’m just not sure they have another movie worth of story left to tell. We’ll see.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It means that the overwhelming majority of reviews were positive and gave TLJ high marks. It means saying that CNN and Variety panned it shows that CNN and Variety are in the minority and people are cherry-picking their reviewers to bolster their opinion. It means people who didn't like it are in the minority.

I saw TLJ and loved it. There were enough tropes being broken and yet some being fulfilled that in the end you really couldn't guess what was going to happen. That's excellent film-making.

And before you ask, I'm old enough that I saw ANH when it was released in theaters, and I'm a big SW fan. So stop trying to make this about newbs to the franchise who don't know what true Star Wars is all about.





Yeah, I remember that. Lots of people were disappointed with ESB at the time. They weren't used to a movie cliffhanger that left the heroes down and out! That surprise reveal out of nowhere! Rage!!

I was actually surprised to hear decades later how many people considered it the best SW movie. Was left very confused about what 'the people' liked. I was an original liker.

We should meet up and watch it again...I'll buy the popcorn.

My main problem...with one character specifically and the main plot in particular...is where do they go?

Before you're dismissive...stop and consider that. From a story perspective:
1. What on earth do you do?
2. How the heck is JJ Abrams gonna do it? A guy that's known in Hollywood for anything BUT finish...
3. What characters can pull it off? That's a big one...and while some characters actually improved for me this time...others spun their wheels or dropped off the "proverbial" cliff...

It might not even be the movie itself...it's the situation that's kinda hairy.

And to be fair: empire and jedi had legs and that's kinda why the legend grew. But a lot of that is social context. I think we were a lot more satisfied/happy before the Internet and when we could hate Russians. It was a simpler time when there wasn't as much daily cool things to look at and that's why those movies resonated.

So new movies are never gonna be the same due to the change in pop culture...but there is no valid excuse for babying a movie and doing dead ends or off screen references.

There were two MASSIVE unexplained key points in that movie...to be fair I might go back tonight to see if I just missed it? I can't imagine anyone would cut a film that left things that in the dark. It's not "nuance"...it's kicking out the foundation of the franchise...longterm.

I'm talking attack of the clones style...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I dont think 8 should be your reset. There are parts i hated in this movie that if moved to 9 id feel better about. A trilogy is. first movie is introduction to characters second conflict third resolution. To me they failed at character development and theres no reason for a third movie.

Cant agree more...and while I am definitely still looking to see it again/be benefit of the doubt - I've always found that anyone who's honest with themselves knows the problems with a movie within the first 10 seconds after they walk out. First impressions are usually dead on.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Ok...I'm gonna throw this out there too...
Isn't part of a 3 story Star Wars arc "escalation" in terms of the visual tech and how it raises the stakes?

ANH (star wars for we purists): star destroyers, Death Star, tie fighters, corvettes, falcon, x wings and y wings

Empire: all of that...walkers, snow speeders, rebel transports, ground defenses, tie bombers superstardestoyers...and at the end of the movie the forever awesome nebulon B

Jedi: all of that...plus speeder bikes, shuttles, mon cal capital ships, a wings, B wings, tie interceptors...

Even the prequels did that...which is a part of war...bigger things lead to bigger ideas...

But what the heck is going on now with the last two? I just leave that question out there...

And say this as well... Lego is selling a "sand speeder" that looks exactly like a snowspeeder for its last jedi line...

...um...someone help me out there, please? Couldn't find anyone to sell you one in Vegas?

 

[Princess Leia]

About to go see Last Jedi, I’ll report later.