Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

[Anders Limpar]

The timing of my post yesterday was uncanny. Although in a perfect world, Emperor's return would have been kept under wraps until opening night. Now, was this planned in Lucasfilm Story Group's general outline back before Episode VII or did JJ and his co-writer decide to do it before filming IX?

Hoping his return will help improve a lot of open ended questions that came with VII & VIII, such as:
Q: What is the modus operandi of the First Order? Where did it come from? Why do they copy everything the Empire did?
A: First Order is not a new entity, but a direct continuation of the Galactic Empire, made possible by the secret survival of the Emperor (you can't have an Empire without an Emperor) and him clandestinely directing remnant military and political leaders for decades.

Q: Who is Snoke? Where did he come from? How is he so powerful? Sith Lord?
A: Snoke is proxy/puppet/projection of the surviving Emperor, who still controls & foresees all through the shell called Snoke. They are one & the same.

Q: How can they kill the main villain Snoke off so easily in the middle of film 2?
A: They only killed the proxy/shell. The Sauron-like being of Snoke/Palpatine survives.

Q: Aren't the sacrifices & happy endings of Episode VI made moot by everything we learn in Episodes VII & VIII, since the "ultimate triumph over the evil empire" in the originals just gave rise to an even worse empire and sad endings for all the heroes of the originals?
A: To a degree, yes. But having all the heroes sacrifice themselves over generations to defeat the one ultimate evil (Emperor aka Satan) is the way to give the six additional films (outside the originals) a worthy ending.

Thank you for putting more thought into that than the filmmakers did.

 

[Tick Tock]

It’s like saying you’re tired of seeing Harry Potter in a story called Harry Potter.

Potter, Skywalker, Baggins, and Everdeen.

The four royal families of cinema.

 

[Darkprime]

If Palpatine was a Force Ghost aiding Snoke, then it wouldn't necessarily violate the "rule of two". That said, it's not like it hasn't been broken before anyway - Dooku had Asajj Ventress and Vader had the Inquisitors.

Just realized how much I don't like the idea of force ghost Palpatine. I hope they don't do something cringey like he's a restless force ghost spirit haunting the location of his death of the way he died. I hope they go with the clone idea.

 

[Paper straw fan]

Most of the more popular fan theories about her identity WERE objectively better, or at least had elements to them that were more consistent and logical (not to mention more interesting and entertaining) than the official version. So yes many of the "made up ideas" WERE preferable.

This would end up being a rather long post to explain, so i'll put it in a spoiler to shorten it a bit. I've posted this before in my criticism of the sequel trilogy and Rey's character. To put it in short terms with all the reasons and details cut out (they're in the spoiler below), Rey's capabilities make absolutely no sense and completely violate a lot of the established rules and logic of the Star Wars franchise.

Spoiler

Firstly, while the execution was handled horribly in the movies, Rey's parents being "nobodies" COULD have worked out if done properly. Giving her parents significance however would have been one way to better explain why she's so powerful. "Rey Skywalker" was just one of the more common and popular theories surrounding Ep 7. But i've heard a lot of other really fun ones too such as her being a Kenobi or even a Palpatine (I liked the idea of this one personally, opens up a lot of potentially interesting facets to her character).

But her parents being "important" wasn't a hard requirement. It was previously established that the Force can manifest exceptionally powerful people from unexceptional parents if the balance of the universe was off. Anakin being the template for this. But unlike Anakin, the details around why Rey exists and is so powerful hasn't been adequately (or really at all) explained. The writers made this worse by flagrantly trying to tease her parentage to fans, but then just pulling the rug out from under them in a really incompetent attempt to pull a "twist". Her parents are nobodies, and she's apparently just some random absurdly powerful force user with no explanation. Subverting expectations should be meaningful, interesting and have an impact (like the twist with Vader in Empire Strikes Back). Not disappointing, pointless and hollow. It IS plausible that the writers are going to pull another twist and retcon her parents into being important (with Kylo Ren being a liar).

But by far the biggest and most glaring problem with Rey is her power growth. And I can't see any retcons being able to fix this. The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi apparently occur over the span of only about a week or so. Last Jedi is only about 2-3 days long. In the span of this absurdly brief period of time, Rey starts out stuck on Jakku and knowing literally nothing about the force. She has exceptionally potent reflexes and intuition, as is the norm with force sensitives. But she never consciously knew this or had control over it. Within the next few days however, she's able to block out and actually rebound Kylo Ren's mental probe back onto him to invade HIS mind instead. She mind tricks a stormtrooper moments later. And a few minutes after this manages to overpower Kylo Ren's telekinetic pull and take the lightsaber from him. After spending two days on an island with Luke Skywalker (wherein he refused to teach her), she is able to break a lightsaber in half using the force (again matching Kylo Ren's power here) and levitate hundreds of massive heavy boulders as if they were helium filled balloons...

These feats of power are absolutely absurd and a sign of horrible writing from people who either have no understanding of the rules and logic of the series (heck of logical plot progression in general), or just don't care. Powers like what Rey demonstrated requires years or decades of intense training. This is regardless of how insanely strong you are in the force such as with Anakin and Luke. In the prequel trilogy, there are lengthy timeskips that explain why characters are growing more powerful. Anakin doesn't start out being capable of mind tricks and telekinesis in Ep1. He only gains these powers in Ep 2, which occurs 10 years after the first and where he received exceptional training and experience under older and powerful jedi masters. There was another 3 year gap between EP2 and EP3.

Luke also started out only having exceptional reflexes and intuition, not able to float objects or mind trick people. EP5 was 3 years later. No master to properly train him, he still couldn't levitate objects by then. He was only able to finally do it with EXTREME difficulty when he summoned his lightsaber laying on the ground about a foot or two away. Barely pulling THAT off. He progressed more quickly on Dagobah thanks to Yoda, it's believed he was there for at least several weeks or even months. At first Luke still struggled to lift anything more than one football sized stone at a time. Eventually he was able to levitate a couple of supply boxes and R2D2 simultaneously, before abruptly leaving to try to save his friends. It should also be mentioned that these skills were nothing to Darth Vader, who wiped the floor with him. Vader incidentally was at this point a tremendously weakened shell of his former prequel self (losing half of his potential). Luke's innate potential was the same as Anakin's was pre-burning. But Vader had over 20 years of intense experience as a Sith lord (and another 20 years on top from his prior jedi training) to compensate and made a fool of Luke in that battle. It took Luke yet another year of training to compete with Vader (and tapping strongly into the dark side to actually beat him). And then of course the Emperor stepped up and took Luke down a notch. Palpatine himself is nowhere near the Skywalker in raw potential, but was almost 90 years old. He was a Sith lord for most his life, training and experience matter.

The point is that no matter how innately strong Rey might be in the force, there is no logical reason that she should be able to use such advanced and difficult force powers without any training or experience. Untrained force sensitive people don't just wake up one day able to levitate a mountain of boulders. It takes decades of intense training (regardless of how innately powerful) to be able to do what Rey learned to do in the span of days.

Even the way Rey taps into these powers contradicts the original trilogy. When Yoda is trying to teach Luke to levitate objects at the beginning, he is struggling and failing with anything more than a single small stone. Luke tells Yoda he thinks it's impossible, and Yoda tells him his disbelief is a major reason for his failure. After Luke realizes the truth of this comment, he does better (though still gets his butt kicked by Vader). Rey has a more optimistic personality than Luke had, but she still clearly exhibits the same exact thoughts as him when it came to belief in her abilities. Whenever she manages to use the force, she acts completely surprised and taken aback that it actually worked. So she has the same self-doubt that Luke had, yet is somehow succeeding where he didn't. Because the writers either didn't understand the source material or didn't care...

Part of the theory Mike S posted would have helped explain the issues with Rey. Rey having been a prior jedi trainee with exceptional skill, but had her memory locked away (this was actually done in a really awesome video game plot in the now non-canon Star Wars Expanded Universe material). The film makers could have even written in that it was Kylo Ren's mental probe of her in Episode 7 that was what "Awakened" her sleeping memories and also her prior training. Explaining why she gradually began to use advanced force powers afterward, some of the skills were coming back to her, along with fragments of her prior memories. There was already a somewhat similar story to this idea in one of the now non-canon Star Wars Expanded Universe plots (a very popular video game).

It’s more just the finger RJ gave to fans throughout the movie, seemingly going out of his way to crap on anything and everything people held dear.

Honestly if your in this thread, you should be caught up now and deserve spoilers if you’re still here, so...

Luke? An angry prick now that almost seems like RJ’s mouthpiece for how much he hates his source material.

Leia? Oh all the sudden she can levitate in space no big deal

Ackbar? You like him right? Ok he’s dead haha FU STAR WARS NERDZ!

Ah the Kylo Ren helmet was cool YEAH ITS GONE.

Oh where did Snoke come from, what’s his deal WHATEVER HES DEAD TOO

Oh Rey’s history that still might be cool NAH WERE DITCHING THAT PLOT TOO LOLZ U MAD STAR NERDS?

Oh and Kylo and Rey have the Sprint family plan now for when they want to talk it’s super cool! (It isn’t)

Remember how Luke is terrible now? Oh wait now he’s sorta ok NAH JUST KIDDING HES A HOLOGRAM OR SOMETHING WHATEVER AND ALSO DEAD

Also the whole movie is basically the laziest high speed chase ever, just to make you miss Jar Jar and senate hearings as plot points compared to this pablum.

Well also take a long time on finding some master code breaker and it’s only life and death OH I MET A GUY IN PRISON WHO SAYS HE CAN DO IT THAT WORKS.

It’s cool tho anyone can be a Jedi! (No s**t RJ we already knew that)

Jeez I’m getting angry thinking about that movie. I’d rather watch video of an otter getting a tonsillectomy than ever see that movie again.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

If a big universe is what you crave that’s what the prequels did believe it or not. To me this whole trilogy feels small.

The prequels have a lot of issues, and I mostly despise them, but the world building and the size of the universe was not one of their issues.

I have always held the opinion that while technically "bad" movies, the prequels are still very entertaining movies. And they have a ton of great concepts and a very solid overall story foundation. The problem was that the execution was botched. Lucas has a lot of primal creative talent, and I think this creativity IS what made the prequels so entertaining for me. But giving him complete free reign over the editing, script writing and directing seems to be where things tend to go wrong. But I do stand by them being very fun to watch, they are filled with good story concepts that could easily have been tweaked to make legitimately great movies.

The sequels are a different type of animal. They're also what i'd consider "bad" movies (well I should say Ep 7 is a mixture of okay to bad while Ep 8 is just outright terrible IMO). But they are bad in a very different sort of way to the prequels. A lot of their story elements on even a conceptual level are completely bland and uninteresting, as well as illogical and incompetently thought out. There are infinitely fewer silly cringe inducing moments than the prequels, in a lot of ways they're actually competently and well acted/directed.

But the biggest problem for me is that the sequels just aren't fun. The story and characters seem to be random and heading nowhere. Rey is a Mary Sue, see my previous post. Kylo Ren showed initial promise at the beginning of Ep 7, but was downgraded to a pathetic chump halfway through and has stayed that way since then. He isn't a threatening villain, Finn (who I actually kind of liked in Ep 7 but he isn't force sensitive) managed to wound him and Rey outright beat him without training and having never held a lightsaber in her life. And we have yet to be given ANY reasonable explanation for his motivations for being evil. Finn and Poe I actually liked in Force Awakens, but they became pointless and bland in Last Jedi. Rose was pointless and a bit annoying. Snoke was always just a far blander and less entertaining version of Palpatine, and he was killed off like a chump and without any explanation as to who he is.

It is far easier to salvage the concepts in the prequel trilogy than the sequel trilogy IMO.

 

[doctornick]

Just realized how much I don't like the idea of force ghost Palpatine. I hope they don't do something cringey like he's a restless force ghost spirit haunting the location of his death of the way he died. I hope they go with the clone idea.

Do we know Palpatine is "really" in the movie. What I mean is, maybe this is just a tease to throw people off the scent. Maybe the laughter is in the movie and McDiarmid filmed some stuff, but its Kylo watching a video of him or something. Or a flashback of some sort.

I know that sounds crazy, but Lucasfilm under Disney has gone heavy into misdirection like having Finn wield a lightsaber in a trailer for TFA making it seem like he was going to be a Jedi.

 

[Darkprime]

Do we know Palpatine is "really" in the movie. What I mean is, maybe this is just a tease to throw people off the scent. Maybe the laughter is in the movie and McDiarmid filmed some stuff, but its Kylo watching a video of him or something. Or a flashback of some sort.

I know that sounds crazy, but Lucasfilm under Disney has gone heavy into misdirection like having Finn wield a lightsaber in a trailer for TFA making it seem like he was going to be a Jedi.

JJ confirmed it at celebration he's back he said he was surprised Ian's presence on the set didn't leak.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Well the one thing i'll say is that Ian McDiarmid absolutely stole every scene he was in in the previous movies. He was captivating and hugely entertaining regardless of whether he was playing the politician OR the Sith lord. He really is a fantastic actor and made even the most over the top silly moments an absolute joy to watch.

Though I wonder if the Emperor is really back in the flesh, or if it's just going to be some sort of recording or whatnot. I think some of the recent video games and comic books taking place between Episode 6 and 7 had holographic droids in them that carried recorded messages from Palpatine to remnants of the Empire. I'm not at all knowledgeable about the details behind these things though.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

They should have got Mike from Red Letter Media to play Palpatine.

 

[fractal]

Perhaps "Skywalker" does not refer to a single person. Perhaps it refers to a new Order of Force Users. More "balanced" Force Users - like Gray Jedi.

The Rise of Skywalker

 

[Tony Perkis]

They should have got Mike from Red Letter Media to play Palpatine.

YES

 

[Tony Perkis]

Well the one thing i'll say is that Ian McDiarmid absolutely stole every scene he was in in the previous movies. He was captivating and hugely entertaining regardless of whether he was playing the politician OR the Sith lord. He really is a fantastic actor and made even the most over the top silly moments an absolute joy to watch.

Though I wonder if the Emperor is really back in the flesh, or if it's just going to be some sort of recording or whatnot. I think some of the recent video games and comic books taking place between Episode 6 and 7 had holographic droids in them that carried recorded messages from Palpatine to remnants of the Empire. I'm not at all knowledgeable about the details behind these things though.

I will credit him for the most entertaining performance in the final film, terrible makeup notwithstanding.

 

[Tony Perkis]

The main episodes have always been about the Skywalkers. You should know that going in.

It’s like saying you’re tired of seeing Harry Potter in a story called Harry Potter.

Not really the same. We had a film, that Lucasfilm considers canon, that did its best to say forget the past, forge a new beginning....

....and we’re now just going back to the familiar.

 

[Tony Perkis]

Totally agree on the Rogue One characters. There were so much better and more interesting.

Does anybody remember anything about Rogue One except for the last 45 minutes?

I think that film is a fantastic TV episode, but there were 90 minutes ahead of the stuff anybody remembers.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

How are the Kathy-Kennedy-is-going-to-be-fired club meetings going? You all need a lot of support considering the number of years gone by in which she hasn't been fired.

They practically have her in witness protection...

People always “retire”...usually not by choice in Hollywood. Stay tuned.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Not really the same. We had a film, that Lucasfilm considers canon, that did its best to say forget the past, forge a new beginning....

....and we’re now just going back to the familiar.

Because what they tried - a focus/marketing group conclusion desire to refocus on a changing 21st century changing cultural dynamic - hasn’t worked at all.

So now this movie will be nothing but really expensive fan fiction. That’s the only move they have.

Does anyone for a second think that in 2013 when they started this that billy dee Williams was an option? At all?

Of course not... Death Stars? Emperors?

Of. Course. Not.

So now we have this.

It has been woefully mismanaged. As in it makes Johnny depps stranglehold on pirates look “wise”

So by attempting to “reinvigorate” the Merch machine....and create a G3 of fans...they are hurting the G1 and G2 sales (the LEGO story)....

So I have a question...
Where would they be if they had just brought all the oldies back and had them command the kids in a war? Pleasing the oldies like me and concentrating on new cgi of the old stuff? Maybe they coulda shot them all before some
Overdosed??

Rogue one kinda did that...and that’s why it’s become the sacred cult holy cow of Star Wars!!!

Honestly...If you are gonna do fan fiction...now...you shoulda started that way. Spare me the “resistance” and the “first Order”

 

[Tony Perkis]

Because what they tried - a focus/marketing group conclusion desire to refocus on a changing 21st century changing cultural dynamic - hasn’t worked at all.

So now this movie will be nothing but really expensive fan fiction. That’s the only move they have.

Does anyone for a second think that in 2013 when they started this that billy dee Williams was an option? At all?

Of course not... Death Stars? Emperors?

Of. Course. Not.

So now we have this.

It has been woefully mismanaged. As in it makes Johnny depps stranglehold on pirates look “wise”

So by attempting to “reinvigorate” the Merch machine....and create a G3 of fans...they are hurting the G1 and G2 sales (the LEGO story)....

So I have a question...
Where would they be if they had just brought all the oldies back and had them command the kids in a war? Pleasing the oldies like me and concentrating on new cgi of the old stuff? Maybe they coulda shot them all before some
Overdosed??

Rogue one kinda did that...and that’s why it’s become the sacred cult holy cow of Star Wars!!!

Honestly...I’d go are gonna do fan fiction...now...you shoulda started that way. Spare me the “resistance” and the “first Order”

I don’t think it had anything to do with Lucasfilm attempting to cater Star Wars to a 21st Century market.

I think it is legitimately as simple as Rian Johnson wanting to make a film in this franchise that subverted expectations. Many hated it (though the people who whine about it because of virtue signaling, they’re wrong and stupid), but I loved it.

Abrams is great at giving fans what they think they want. It worked for TFA because the prequels were awful and we needed reassurance that the new series would be different.

He absolutely cannot do that again.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don’t think it had anything to do with Lucasfilm attempting to cater Star Wars to a 21st Century market.

I think it is legitimately as simple as Rian Johnson wanting to make a film in this franchise that subverted expectations. Many hated it (though the people who whine about it because of virtue signaling, they’re wrong and stupid), but I loved it.

Abrams is great at giving fans what they think they want. It worked for TFA because the prequels were awful and we needed reassurance that the new series would be different.

He absolutely cannot do that again.

The only reason to do a straight Star Wars remake...which is what abrams did...was to add the G3 of fans.

They hedged their bets...taking a calculated risk they didn’t think was there.

The franchise is more damaged now. It’s an opinion...but I’ll meet anyone for drinks and hash it out. Better than this board

In a way...i think Disney misread the prequels badly. While the fans assumed a fix was on the way...the suits appear to have thought” that was terrible and they’re STILL THERE. The product doesn’t matter”

We argue this all the time about everything...does the quality matter once you get big?

Yes. It dId. It does. It will.

We can have a difference of opinion about Star Wars...certainly not universal opinions.

But I don’t think it’s realistic to look at Star Wars and think it’s fine. The last two have caused more business damage to the Franchise than the complete suckiosity of episodes 1 and 2 combined.

I Couldn’t get my kids to watch the trailer today...
They’re pumped for Endgame 13 days from now though...lock and load.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Despite the current fan issues with this trilogy, I believe there will be enough of a response to it ending that it'll bring out even the most critical of fan. It'll be a bookend to what FA started. There will be enough repeat viewings that it'll break 2B if not more. Like I said I'm betting on 2.5B-3B.

I think you’re heavy by 100%....

I’m thinking even the greatest fan service they can cram into 2 hours won’t have enough juice to bring that kinda crowd now. It’s not the front page pop franchise anymore.

Once...the entire world movie industry cleared its schedule for Star Wars...
Now it hides in winter...and 2 in a fleeting 6 month period is “too boring” to get people to buy tickets.

We’ll have to see. Here, on a Disney board, there’s tends to be a little overzeal on JJ abrams...

Most of the kids don’t really care.

 

[mikejs78]

Most of the kids don’t really care.

Apparently at my son's school Ep IX was the topic of the day. I think you underestimate the ongoing appeal of SW.