SPOILER: The Acolyte -- Disney+ Star Wars -- begins June 5, 2024

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Episode 7 was absolutely the most anticipated movie sequel in history…as was episode 1 was the most anticipated movie overall

Disney absolutely knew a plan was necessary. You can not believe that…and be wrong.

They tried some stupid Gen X/Y hipster neck beard “free flowing organic art” nonsense production…kiri hart in particular. A self styled Shonda Rymes with zero talent

No one should feign ignorance to this to try and win unreasonable points.

Even I have more respect for the posters here than to try that

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

This is not what happened and is part of the grand plan myth.

It started with just what became Star Wars. It was not Episode IV at the time of its writing or release. Various drafts of various names had a bunch of extra backstory and exposition, some of which would survive. The first big idea of multiple films that Lucas talked about was an anthology series of about twelve different movies. He wanted to get other friends and film makers like Francis Ford Coppola to make their own movies set in the universe. He himself would maybe do a single direct sequel or single prequel about Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

The first sequel to Star Wars was the novel Splinter of the Mind’s Eye written by Alan Dean Foster. It was written with the idea that it could cheaply be produced as a sequel and, as would be the case with the Expanded Universe it would launch, featured very minimal input from Lucas. In a post-Jedi world it is notable for the very clear romantic elements between Luke and Leia because them being siblings was Lucas trying to come up with another twist to insert into Return of the Jedi following the success of turning Darth Vader into Anakin Skywalker.

Lucas had some ideas for the sequel, but hired Leigh Brackett to actually make a cogent narrative and take them somewhere. Early drafts of Star Wars Chapter II included Luke having a sister (with Lucas starting to toy with it being Leia but not yet committing) and a Force ghost visit from Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan talks about Anakin as a separate person because he was a separate person, something supported by early drafts of the sequel and Lucas’ own musings for a single prequel.

The idea of the original trilogy being the middle of something came during the development of The Empire Strikes Back. Star Wars didn’t even get retitled until 1981, the year after Empire was released sporting Episode V in its opening crawl. Lucas’ story of what this meant would change over the years. Sometimes it was just world building to make it bigger, sometimes it was the “trilogy of trilogies” and then for awhile it was just the second half of what he insisted had always been the six part story of Anakin Skywalker (even though he had very clearly been a separate character from Darth Vader).


Recognizing the facts of history and even the precarious notion of appointing a new Lucas does not in any way excuse how Disney handled the property. Knowing context and understanding motivations is not a validation of process and decisions. More importantly for these types of discussions is it can help you realize who is absolutely, completely full of it and should not be taken as a reliable source of information regarding what went wrong.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Likewise I'll give her credit for bringing in JJ, who managed to recapture the feel of classic Star Wars, but also criticism for not ensuring the three films had a basic storyline mapped out.

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

 

[erasure fan1]

Except even the "there is a reason it all started with Ep4" is also a myth. When it was being filmed, and then initially released, it had no number, simply just called Star Wars. It didn't get a number until Empire came out. He didn't even know if it was going to be a success, so didn't plan much beyond just some rough basic ideas.

So yes he had some rough basic ideas but he didn't have a full plan. For example he didn't have it planned out about Vader being Luke and Leia's father, that came later as other writers came in to write the actual movies.

Not to sound snarky, but you kind of just re-stated what I said in my post. Again, it doesn't matter that parts of the OT changed, that's just smart filmmaking. I guess the disconnect is what's considered a plan. I do a lot of what would be considered creative. Obviously nothing on the scale of star wars. I've built garden ponds, made stop motion films, music composition... I start with an idea, flesh it out, map it out... You want to guess how many times it ended up exactly what my plan was? It's Zero. But it guided me to the final product. When I have no overall plan, it almost always needs to be reworked, redone, and never really ends up very good.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that a rough outline of what you are going to do, improves the final outcome ten fold. George had an idea for a story he wanted to tell. He had an outline of what he wanted to do and where he wanted it to go. Just because it changed or was crazy super in depth, does not mean it wasn't a plan.

The idea that Lucas had a plan for the entire original trilogy doesn't really hold water when the best he could come up with was doing the Death Star again.

The Luke/Leia revelation also felt more like meeting a newfound expectation that the movies have a big twist moment.

Again, where did this idea that Lucas planned every detail of the whole trilogy come from? I don't read that being stated. Maybe it's come up a couple times but it's not something that all tons of people talk about.

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative. If Kennedy had an ounce of that, a lot of the pitfalls of the sequels could have been avoided.

when the best he could come up with was doing the Death Star again.

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

 

[Disney Irish]

Not to sound snarky, but you kind of just re-stated what I said in my post. Again, it doesn't matter that parts of the OT changed, that's just smart filmmaking. I guess the disconnect is what's considered a plan. I do a lot of what would be considered creative. Obviously nothing on the scale of star wars. I've built garden ponds, made stop motion films, music composition... I start with an idea, flesh it out, map it out... You want to guess how many times it ended up exactly what my plan was? It's Zero. But it guided me to the final product. When I have no overall plan, it almost always needs to be reworked, redone, and never really ends up very good.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that a rough outline of what you are going to do, improves the final outcome ten fold. George had an idea for a story he wanted to tell. He had an outline of what he wanted to do and where he wanted it to go. Just because it changed or was crazy super in depth, does not mean it wasn't a plan.

Again, where did this idea that Lucas planned every detail of the whole trilogy come from? I don't read that being stated. Maybe it's come up a couple times but it's not something that all tons of people talk about.

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative. If Kennedy had an ounce of that, a lot of the pitfalls of the sequels could have been avoided.

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

Also not to sound snarky, but I think you're believing more of the myth than you realize. As @lazyboy97o just summarized its not the overarching rough outline that you've been lead to believe. It really was fly by the seat of his pants, throw it against the wall and seeing what sticks, type of film making. Lucas is great, but he is not the master planner everyone tries to make him out to be.

 

[Disney Irish]

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

Starkiller was not on Kennedy, that was on JJ and his team of writers.

 

[Disney Irish]

Why are we rehashing the last 9 years of Star Wars (yet again) in a thread that is suppose to be about Spoilers for Acolyte?

I suggest we create a new thread if we're going to continue this discussion, just a friendly suggestion.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

I'm pretty sure most people acknowledge that The Force Awakens rehashes a lot of what came before.

I still like it as the security blanket of Star Wars. It feels comforting after the CGI heavy prequels.

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

And then disregarded the answers to those mysteries he set up. Rian was correct that there was no logical known character for Rey to be related to, and then we get the Palpatine reveal which doesn't amount to anything because they didn't set it up.

As I said when Rise of Skywalker was released, having Rey grapple with going to the dark side would have been fine, even if a rehash of Anakin's story, but it didn't work because she never actually struggled with a decision.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Why are we rehashing the last 9 years of Star Wars (yet again) in a thread that is suppose to be about Spoilers for Acolyte?

I suggest we create a new thread if we're going to continue this discussion, just a friendly suggestion.

I tried that. No one used it.

 

[Disney Irish]

I tried that. No one used it.

Of course not, because they rather gripe in any other thread about past grievances.

 

[lazyboy97o]

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative.

No he did not. You keep trying to making it about little details when he absolutely did not have the bigger picture outlined. At best you could say he had a vague idea of the larger universe but it was nowhere near close to what could be described as even a rough outline.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree that Lucas had no inclusive “plan” in 1974-75 when he started throwing it together.

The icons docu series does a great job of highlighting how he was scatterbrained and somehow didn’t pooch the whole thing in his approach. The best thing being he didn’t even have a story for return of the Jedi…not a word…when he has 200 ILM people building models and machines for “possible” effects. Hence the Death Star 2: electric boogaloo

But that does NOT excuse Disney’s just laughable misunderstanding of the appeal, the mythos, the fan dedication and the delicate game they chose to buy their way into.

It’s been a disaster. Almost worse than any of us could have imagined.

The “highlight” for me…other than some sequences of R1 and the last episode of season 2 of Mando…was the third teaser trailer for 7…

This one:



I don’t even know how they managed to cut that one? The source movie had zero of the same feel. That was Abrams pathetic corporate hack piece…and it’s been largely a parade of “creative” buffoons since.


And just to be clear…cause I wasn’t here then…I had little to zero doubts on 10/30/2012 that Disney buying Star Wars was a sure fire smash. George had given up and wallowed in self pity in a decade…and Disney had the deep pockets and gravitas to do it the right way and deliver.

Well we all miss the innocence of our youth, don’t we?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

He chased the money. That was the motivation.

That’s the takeaway. And he just simply isn’t that good. As he toils in the basement of Netflix now

 

[sedati]

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

The root mistake was the Fandom Menace being so loud and obnoxious that JJ was the only high profile director willing to take the considerable risk. I think Disney thought once they got the ball rolling they would have their pick of directors, but all had seen the abuse put on Lucas and didn’t want to put that hell on themselves.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I could say I should get X for the next 20 years just because I made Y for the last 20 years, and if I don't then I lost Z amount of money because I didn't make X. But that is not the reality of how the world works. So many factors both internal and external goes into that X value, many that are beyond your control, that you cannot even estimate it. I know many try, but this is why so many end up missing those targets because its unreasonable and quite honestly bad accounting. Its why companies don't go more than a few quarters ahead in their guidance. Too many factors to account for both internal and external, many that you don't have control over.

So you cannot just state SW should have made X and Disney lost Billions because they didn't meet that X value that you arbitrarily set based on what you perceive they should have made. And it shows that you are only thinking with emotions and not based on reality of how the world actually works.

I think I mentioned before that I have a couple of college buddies who work for danish brick makers for the last 25 years (sometimes information helps)…and they surely don’t waiver on the opinion that Star Wars has VASTLY underperformed under Disney.

There really isn’t a better bellwether on the planet…to be Honest.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The root mistake was the Fandom Menace being so loud and obnoxious that JJ was the only high profile director willing to take the considerable risk. I think Disney thought once they got the ball rolling they would have their pick of directors, but all had seen the abuse put on Lucas and didn’t want to put that hell on themselves.

I sorta agree

But I think the most ridiculous remake/reboot in history had Hollywood shaking they heads collectively like never seen

And theres the whole Johnson thing…not his B rate work…what happened with treverrow.

Anyone still believe he was “fired”? Oh to be a fly on that wall.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think I mentioned before that I have a couple of college buddies who work for danish brick makers for the last 25 years (sometimes information helps)…and they surely don’t waiver on the opinion that Star Wars has VASTLY underperformed under Disney.

There really isn’t a better bellwether on the planet…to be Honest.

And? That still doesn't prove your unsubstantiated claims of loss of potential revenue to Disney in the Billions. You have a gut feeling that is all, and more power to you for that. But that is not an accounting standard used by any company on the planet, not even Lego.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

I remember when Acolyte was first announced, it was described as almost a murder mystery, which it really wasn't.

Will be interesting to see if they eventually continue this story through books or comics

 

[Phroobar]