SPOILER: The Acolyte -- Disney+ Star Wars -- begins June 5, 2024

[Disney Irish]

You’re never gonna accept my criticisms

I’m never gonna accept excuses for Disney being bad at something

On the contrary, I accept your criticisms and have said so over the years. Just doesn't mean I agree with them overall, and that is what you appear to not being able to accept.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Or its possible the masses didn't want to see an 80+ yr old Indy. The story was done too late in my opinion, should have been done a decade earlier.

It sort of was with Crystal Skull, it bombed though so it didn’t get any traction to go anywhere. They’ve been trying to restart Indy with a younger star for a decade. It failed with Crystal Skull and Shia Labouf and it looks like it failed with Destiny and Phoebe Waller also.

They may have to give up on Harrison directly handing over the reins and just start a fresh reboot sans Harrison entirely.

 

[Disney Irish]

It sort of was with Crystal Skull, it bombed though so it didn’t get any traction to go anywhere. They’ve been trying to restart Indy with a younger star for a decade. It failed with Crystal Skull and Shia Labouf and it looks like it failed with Destiny and Phoebe Waller also.

I wish Crystal Skull did better, I think Shia would have been good in that role and might have kept him from going off the deep end.

They may have to give up on Harrison directly handing over the reins and just start a fresh reboot sans Harrison entirely.

While I agree, not sure if the masses are ready for that yet. Might have to wait a decade or so before that happens.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think the point was that fans complained that there wasn't some overarching plan for the ST, well there wasn't one for the OT or even PT either. George flew by the seat of his pants, and it just happened to work out for the most part, at least for the OT.

But the original movies were well executed and groundbreaking

The prequels were a decent plan that fell flat on execution…mostly by George and McCallum

The DT weren’t well conceived, shot, marketed…or frankly likeable at all. They are that bad

Bob built two lands and two ridiculously priced rides to them. And still managed to hedge. It’s a talent

 

[networkpro]

It sort of was with Crystal Skull, it bombed though so it didn’t get any traction to go anywhere. They’ve been trying to restart Indy with a younger star for a decade. It failed with Crystal Skull and Shia Labouf and it looks like it failed with Destiny and Phoebe Waller also.

They may have to give up on Harrison directly handing over the reins and just start a fresh reboot sans Harrison entirely.

I'm very afraid of how that would turn out

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don't think anyone here is saying that SW hasn't been a financial disappoint overall to Disney, it has. Yes they expected more, which is why they greenlit a bunch of projects.

Few doubt that the mistakes have cost Disney billions…those that still deny it are possible a lost cause?

But that alone would be grounds for dismissal in most business, don’t you think?

The curve is Disney reality has changed. 10 years ago they could do things for motive other than money. They can’t anymore and it’s causing huge problems

Past became prologue

 

[erasure fan1]

Or its possible the masses didn't want to see an 80+ yr old Indy. The story was done too late in my opinion, should have been done a decade earlier.

To be fair, didn't this movie start a decade earlier? That's kind of the problem that's plagued Lucasfilm. They can't seem to get a proper story to save their life.

I think the point was that fans complained that there wasn't some overarching plan for the ST, well there wasn't one for the OT or even PT either. George flew by the seat of his pants, and it just happened to work out for the most part, at least for the OT.

But that's the thing, he did have a plan. It wasn't Kevin Feige 22 movies out kind of plan. But he had a through put for a trilogy. He wasn't sure he'd even get a second movie. He had a much more cohesive plan than the sequels had. And I'm not sticking up for Lucas, there wasn't anyone happier than me whe Disney bought lucasfilm. But back in the 70s no one was thinking grand cinematic universe. Yet he still had more of a plan than Disney. Because George didn't write all 9 movies back in the 70s/ early 80s in no way exonerates Disneys mishandling of what was expected to be a cinematic universe.

 

[Disney Irish]

Few doubt that the mistakes have cost Disney billions…those that still deny it are possible a lost cause?

You cannot calculate a potential cost like that, at least not in the way you're doing it. Sorry I know you believe this with every fiber of your being, but you can't calculate out a potential cost just based on your gut feeling.

But that alone would be grounds for dismissal in most business, don’t you think?

No, because a company in the 21st century doesn't work like that.

 

[Disney Irish]

To be fair, didn't this movie start a decade earlier? That's kind of the problem that's plagued Lucasfilm. They can't seem to get a proper story to save their life.

Yes, George had the same problem with both SW and Indy. He never could get the stories off the ground, and too many years went by. Which is why he ended up selling to Disney.

But that's the thing, he did have a plan. It wasn't Kevin Feige 22 movies out kind of plan. But he had a through put for a trilogy. He wasn't sure he'd even get a second movie. He had a much more cohesive plan than the sequels had. And I'm sticking up for Lucas, there wasn't anyone happier than me whe Disney bought lucasfilm. But back in the 70s no one was thinking grand cinematic universe. Yet he still had more of a plan than Disney. Because George didn't write all 9 movies back in the 70s/ early 80s in no way exonerates Disneys mishandling of what was expected to be a cinematic universe.

This is the mythos that is George. The man is good. But many just don't want to accept the reality that he flew by the seat of his pants most of the time, it was never as planned out as the myth would have you believe.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You cannot calculate a potential cost like that, at least not in the way you're doing it. Sorry I know you believe this with every fiber of your being, but you can't calculate out a potential cost just based on your gut feeling.

You absolutely…100% can make educated guesses/estimates with reasonable accuracy.

Because the marketing machine of star wars has been studied for 45 years

To refuse to consider this is yet another excuse…which is shocking

 

[Disney Irish]

Because George didn't write all 9 movies back in the 70s/ early 80s in no way exonerates Disneys mishandling of what was expected to be a cinematic universe.

The point was its an expectation based on this myth that George had it all planned out, which he didn't. Disney/LFL basically did the same thing that George did, after all it was run by someone who knows him really well, and it just didn't turn out the same. So yes you can say it was mishandled, as Disney should have had a grand plan for their ST. But lets not get it twisted, George didn't plan it out either.

 

[networkpro]

This is the mythos that is George. The man is good. But many just don't want to accept the reality that he flew by the seat of his pants most of the time, it was never as planned out as the myth would have you believe.

He also was very effective in controlling his costs. He also would have been very lost if he hadn't watched and studied Akira Kurosawa's movies.

 

[Disney Irish]

You absolutely…100% can make educated guesses/estimates with reasonable accuracy.

Because the marketing machine of star wars has been studied for 45 years

To refuse to consider this is yet another excuse…which is shocking

I could say I should get X for the next 20 years just because I made Y for the last 20 years, and if I don't then I lost Z amount of money because I didn't make X. But that is not the reality of how the world works. So many factors both internal and external goes into that X value, many that are beyond your control, that you cannot even estimate it. I know many try, but this is why so many end up missing those targets because its unreasonable and quite honestly bad accounting. Its why companies don't go more than a few quarters ahead in their guidance. Too many factors to account for both internal and external, many that you don't have control over.

So you cannot just state SW should have made X and Disney lost Billions because they didn't meet that X value that you arbitrarily set based on what you perceive they should have made. And it shows that you are only thinking with emotions and not based on reality of how the world actually works.

 

[Disney Irish]

He also was very effective in controlling his costs. He also would have been very lost if he hadn't watched and studied Akira Kurosawa's movies.

Completely agree, its one thing I've complained about with Disney, they end up spending too much and need to reign in costs.

 

[erasure fan1]

This is the mythos that is George. The man is good. But many just don't want to accept the reality that he flew by the seat of his pants most of the time.

It's not really a mythos though. The absolute truth is he still had more of a plan than Disney, and that's the issue in my eyes. A good creative HAS to be able to "fly by the seat of your pants" sometimes. Things come up, things aren't translating well from your yellow notepad to film... But when you have an outline of where you want to start and where you want it to end up, it's expected you make adjustments along the way. Don't just plow on with something that isn't working.

The difference between the OT and the sequels boils down to one thing. George did have an idea of where and how this thing would play out. And Disney had zero idea where they would take the films. It was all pass the baton choose your own adventure. Without the basics of an outline of where you want to go, it will more often than not go sideways.

I think we have to stop giving Disney a pass on having no plan. This isn't the 1970s. For 4bil a strong plan for your trilogy should have been a plan #1. George had a vision for a story, he had outlines. Did it change over the course of the OT? Of course. But Disney never got to step one, a vision for a story. I don't need every aspect of star wars planned out for the next decade. But have some direction for one of the biggest franchises in history.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's not really a mythos though. The absolute truth is he still had more of a plan than Disney, and that's the issue in my eyes.

This is not in dispute, as we know Disney really had no plan. What is in dispute is that George had this grand plan for the OT, and that is what is the myth. If anything he had more of a plan for the PT than he did for the OT. But based on this myth of a plan for the OT fans expected that Disney would do like what Feige did with the MCU, and again that is what is being disputed.

Also no one is giving Disney a pass. I 100% think they should have things planned out, or at least an outline of what they want from their storytelling within the SW Universe, which again they don't appear to have had at least until recently. This is where my hope that Filoni now being the Head Creative will get things more planned out in the future.

 

[DKampy]

That audience didn’t tell their friends…apparently

That might be the real problem.

Nobody is interacted in anything LFL does

And why?

Bad sequels

Or maybe Indiana Jones is a has been IP…. As an Indy fan I hope not…. But IP’s that have done well usually there is some appeal among the younger generations….

could be the same issue with the Mission Impossible film series…I wonder if anyone below the age of 40 realize it was based on an old TV show

 

[erasure fan1]

This is not in dispute, as we know Disney really had no plan. What is in dispute is that George had this grand plan for the OT, and that is what is the myth.

I'll be honest, I don't know where this everyone thought George had some grand plan has come from. When I say Disney needs a plan, it's inevitable that someone chimes in with "well George didn't have a plan". But he absolutely did have a plan. As I said it wasn't for some cinematic universe but it's there. I've never advocated that he wrote all 3 films first.

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

Disney 100% purchased it to be an ongoing franchise. And in order to do that successfully, you absolutely need a plan. Otherwise you end up with DC instead of the infinity saga.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Or maybe Indiana Jones is a has been IP…. As an Indy fan I hope not…. But IP’s that have done well usually there is some appeal among the younger generations….

could be the same issue with the Mission Impossible film series…I wonder if anyone below the age of 40 realize it was based on an old TV show

I think it may me an outdated franchise…and Star Wars wrecked it.

You cannot be a corporate Hollywood studio and wreck Star Wars. Just can’t.

And everyone knows it. The prequels happened…and they managed to do worse

 

[Disney Irish]

I'll be honest, I don't know where this everyone thought George had some grand plan has come from. When I say Disney needs a plan, it's inevitable that someone chimes in with "well George didn't have a plan". But he absolutely did have a plan. As I said it wasn't for some cinematic universe but it's there. I've never advocated that he wrote all 3 films first.

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

Disney 100% purchased it to be an ongoing franchise. And in order to do that successfully, you absolutely need a plan. Otherwise you end up with DC instead of the infinity saga.

Except even the "there is a reason it all started with Ep4" is also a myth. When it was being filmed, and then initially released, it had no number, simply just called Star Wars. It didn't get a number until Empire came out. He didn't even know if it was going to be a success, so didn't plan much beyond just some rough basic ideas.

So yes he had some rough basic ideas but he didn't have a full plan. For example he didn't have it planned out about Vader being Luke and Leia's father, that came later as other writers came in to write the actual movies.

And again I 100% agree that Disney should have had a plan, full stop. That I 100% blame Disney for, both Kennedy and the LFL story team, and on Iger. 100%, you get no disagreement from me on that. And have said so many many many times over in these threads.