SPOILER: The Acolyte -- Disney+ Star Wars -- begins June 5, 2024

[Disney Irish]

He also was very effective in controlling his costs. He also would have been very lost if he hadn't watched and studied Akira Kurosawa's movies.

Completely agree, its one thing I've complained about with Disney, they end up spending too much and need to reign in costs.

 

[erasure fan1]

This is the mythos that is George. The man is good. But many just don't want to accept the reality that he flew by the seat of his pants most of the time.

It's not really a mythos though. The absolute truth is he still had more of a plan than Disney, and that's the issue in my eyes. A good creative HAS to be able to "fly by the seat of your pants" sometimes. Things come up, things aren't translating well from your yellow notepad to film... But when you have an outline of where you want to start and where you want it to end up, it's expected you make adjustments along the way. Don't just plow on with something that isn't working.

The difference between the OT and the sequels boils down to one thing. George did have an idea of where and how this thing would play out. And Disney had zero idea where they would take the films. It was all pass the baton choose your own adventure. Without the basics of an outline of where you want to go, it will more often than not go sideways.

I think we have to stop giving Disney a pass on having no plan. This isn't the 1970s. For 4bil a strong plan for your trilogy should have been a plan #1. George had a vision for a story, he had outlines. Did it change over the course of the OT? Of course. But Disney never got to step one, a vision for a story. I don't need every aspect of star wars planned out for the next decade. But have some direction for one of the biggest franchises in history.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's not really a mythos though. The absolute truth is he still had more of a plan than Disney, and that's the issue in my eyes.

This is not in dispute, as we know Disney really had no plan. What is in dispute is that George had this grand plan for the OT, and that is what is the myth. If anything he had more of a plan for the PT than he did for the OT. But based on this myth of a plan for the OT fans expected that Disney would do like what Feige did with the MCU, and again that is what is being disputed.

Also no one is giving Disney a pass. I 100% think they should have things planned out, or at least an outline of what they want from their storytelling within the SW Universe, which again they don't appear to have had at least until recently. This is where my hope that Filoni now being the Head Creative will get things more planned out in the future.

 

[DKampy]

That audience didn’t tell their friends…apparently

That might be the real problem.

Nobody is interacted in anything LFL does

And why?

Bad sequels

Or maybe Indiana Jones is a has been IP…. As an Indy fan I hope not…. But IP’s that have done well usually there is some appeal among the younger generations….

could be the same issue with the Mission Impossible film series…I wonder if anyone below the age of 40 realize it was based on an old TV show

 

[erasure fan1]

This is not in dispute, as we know Disney really had no plan. What is in dispute is that George had this grand plan for the OT, and that is what is the myth.

I'll be honest, I don't know where this everyone thought George had some grand plan has come from. When I say Disney needs a plan, it's inevitable that someone chimes in with "well George didn't have a plan". But he absolutely did have a plan. As I said it wasn't for some cinematic universe but it's there. I've never advocated that he wrote all 3 films first.

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

Disney 100% purchased it to be an ongoing franchise. And in order to do that successfully, you absolutely need a plan. Otherwise you end up with DC instead of the infinity saga.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Or maybe Indiana Jones is a has been IP…. As an Indy fan I hope not…. But IP’s that have done well usually there is some appeal among the younger generations….

could be the same issue with the Mission Impossible film series…I wonder if anyone below the age of 40 realize it was based on an old TV show

I think it may me an outdated franchise…and Star Wars wrecked it.

You cannot be a corporate Hollywood studio and wreck Star Wars. Just can’t.

And everyone knows it. The prequels happened…and they managed to do worse

 

[Disney Irish]

I'll be honest, I don't know where this everyone thought George had some grand plan has come from. When I say Disney needs a plan, it's inevitable that someone chimes in with "well George didn't have a plan". But he absolutely did have a plan. As I said it wasn't for some cinematic universe but it's there. I've never advocated that he wrote all 3 films first.

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

Disney 100% purchased it to be an ongoing franchise. And in order to do that successfully, you absolutely need a plan. Otherwise you end up with DC instead of the infinity saga.

Except even the "there is a reason it all started with Ep4" is also a myth. When it was being filmed, and then initially released, it had no number, simply just called Star Wars. It didn't get a number until Empire came out. He didn't even know if it was going to be a success, so didn't plan much beyond just some rough basic ideas.

So yes he had some rough basic ideas but he didn't have a full plan. For example he didn't have it planned out about Vader being Luke and Leia's father, that came later as other writers came in to write the actual movies.

And again I 100% agree that Disney should have had a plan, full stop. That I 100% blame Disney for, both Kennedy and the LFL story team, and on Iger. 100%, you get no disagreement from me on that. And have said so many many many times over in these threads.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Then she can't take the credit for Mando or Rogue one either. That's a bit silly I think. She's the president of Lucasfilm. She approves the content and the direction of the content for better or for worse.

Well, that's an oddly binary way to misrepresent my comment. I said she shouldn't take 100% of the blame and likewise should also share praise when warranted. Filmmaking is after all a collaborative process.

She gets credit for bringing in Favreau who did a good job with the Mandalorian, and he gets credit for the creative side of things.

Likewise I'll give her credit for bringing in JJ, who managed to recapture the feel of classic Star Wars, but also criticism for not ensuring the three films had a basic storyline mapped out.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

The idea that Lucas had a plan for the entire original trilogy doesn't really hold water when the best he could come up with was doing the Death Star again.

The Luke/Leia revelation also felt more like meeting a newfound expectation that the movies have a big twist moment.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Episode 7 was absolutely the most anticipated movie sequel in history…as was episode 1 was the most anticipated movie overall

Disney absolutely knew a plan was necessary. You can not believe that…and be wrong.

They tried some stupid Gen X/Y hipster neck beard “free flowing organic art” nonsense production…kiri hart in particular. A self styled Shonda Rymes with zero talent

No one should feign ignorance to this to try and win unreasonable points.

Even I have more respect for the posters here than to try that

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's very well known he wrote a basic story and realized he couldn't make the whole thing. He broke it into 3 parts. There's a reason it all started with ep4. That's absolutely a plan. It was enough of a plan that he knew that there was a ep1-2-3 and ep7-8-9. All he had for those is rough story points but that's still a plan. Something he knew he could come back to. Again he had no idea he would even get a 2nd movie. Hence it was just star wars when it released.

This is not what happened and is part of the grand plan myth.

It started with just what became Star Wars. It was not Episode IV at the time of its writing or release. Various drafts of various names had a bunch of extra backstory and exposition, some of which would survive. The first big idea of multiple films that Lucas talked about was an anthology series of about twelve different movies. He wanted to get other friends and film makers like Francis Ford Coppola to make their own movies set in the universe. He himself would maybe do a single direct sequel or single prequel about Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

The first sequel to Star Wars was the novel Splinter of the Mind’s Eye written by Alan Dean Foster. It was written with the idea that it could cheaply be produced as a sequel and, as would be the case with the Expanded Universe it would launch, featured very minimal input from Lucas. In a post-Jedi world it is notable for the very clear romantic elements between Luke and Leia because them being siblings was Lucas trying to come up with another twist to insert into Return of the Jedi following the success of turning Darth Vader into Anakin Skywalker.

Lucas had some ideas for the sequel, but hired Leigh Brackett to actually make a cogent narrative and take them somewhere. Early drafts of Star Wars Chapter II included Luke having a sister (with Lucas starting to toy with it being Leia but not yet committing) and a Force ghost visit from Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan talks about Anakin as a separate person because he was a separate person, something supported by early drafts of the sequel and Lucas’ own musings for a single prequel.

The idea of the original trilogy being the middle of something came during the development of The Empire Strikes Back. Star Wars didn’t even get retitled until 1981, the year after Empire was released sporting Episode V in its opening crawl. Lucas’ story of what this meant would change over the years. Sometimes it was just world building to make it bigger, sometimes it was the “trilogy of trilogies” and then for awhile it was just the second half of what he insisted had always been the six part story of Anakin Skywalker (even though he had very clearly been a separate character from Darth Vader).


Recognizing the facts of history and even the precarious notion of appointing a new Lucas does not in any way excuse how Disney handled the property. Knowing context and understanding motivations is not a validation of process and decisions. More importantly for these types of discussions is it can help you realize who is absolutely, completely full of it and should not be taken as a reliable source of information regarding what went wrong.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Likewise I'll give her credit for bringing in JJ, who managed to recapture the feel of classic Star Wars, but also criticism for not ensuring the three films had a basic storyline mapped out.

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

 

[erasure fan1]

Except even the "there is a reason it all started with Ep4" is also a myth. When it was being filmed, and then initially released, it had no number, simply just called Star Wars. It didn't get a number until Empire came out. He didn't even know if it was going to be a success, so didn't plan much beyond just some rough basic ideas.

So yes he had some rough basic ideas but he didn't have a full plan. For example he didn't have it planned out about Vader being Luke and Leia's father, that came later as other writers came in to write the actual movies.

Not to sound snarky, but you kind of just re-stated what I said in my post. Again, it doesn't matter that parts of the OT changed, that's just smart filmmaking. I guess the disconnect is what's considered a plan. I do a lot of what would be considered creative. Obviously nothing on the scale of star wars. I've built garden ponds, made stop motion films, music composition... I start with an idea, flesh it out, map it out... You want to guess how many times it ended up exactly what my plan was? It's Zero. But it guided me to the final product. When I have no overall plan, it almost always needs to be reworked, redone, and never really ends up very good.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that a rough outline of what you are going to do, improves the final outcome ten fold. George had an idea for a story he wanted to tell. He had an outline of what he wanted to do and where he wanted it to go. Just because it changed or was crazy super in depth, does not mean it wasn't a plan.

The idea that Lucas had a plan for the entire original trilogy doesn't really hold water when the best he could come up with was doing the Death Star again.

The Luke/Leia revelation also felt more like meeting a newfound expectation that the movies have a big twist moment.

Again, where did this idea that Lucas planned every detail of the whole trilogy come from? I don't read that being stated. Maybe it's come up a couple times but it's not something that all tons of people talk about.

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative. If Kennedy had an ounce of that, a lot of the pitfalls of the sequels could have been avoided.

when the best he could come up with was doing the Death Star again.

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

 

[Disney Irish]

Not to sound snarky, but you kind of just re-stated what I said in my post. Again, it doesn't matter that parts of the OT changed, that's just smart filmmaking. I guess the disconnect is what's considered a plan. I do a lot of what would be considered creative. Obviously nothing on the scale of star wars. I've built garden ponds, made stop motion films, music composition... I start with an idea, flesh it out, map it out... You want to guess how many times it ended up exactly what my plan was? It's Zero. But it guided me to the final product. When I have no overall plan, it almost always needs to be reworked, redone, and never really ends up very good.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that a rough outline of what you are going to do, improves the final outcome ten fold. George had an idea for a story he wanted to tell. He had an outline of what he wanted to do and where he wanted it to go. Just because it changed or was crazy super in depth, does not mean it wasn't a plan.

Again, where did this idea that Lucas planned every detail of the whole trilogy come from? I don't read that being stated. Maybe it's come up a couple times but it's not something that all tons of people talk about.

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative. If Kennedy had an ounce of that, a lot of the pitfalls of the sequels could have been avoided.

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

Also not to sound snarky, but I think you're believing more of the myth than you realize. As @lazyboy97o just summarized its not the overarching rough outline that you've been lead to believe. It really was fly by the seat of his pants, throw it against the wall and seeing what sticks, type of film making. Lucas is great, but he is not the master planner everyone tries to make him out to be.

 

[Disney Irish]

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

Starkiller was not on Kennedy, that was on JJ and his team of writers.

 

[Disney Irish]

Why are we rehashing the last 9 years of Star Wars (yet again) in a thread that is suppose to be about Spoilers for Acolyte?

I suggest we create a new thread if we're going to continue this discussion, just a friendly suggestion.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

I'd have to ask then. So if the "best Lucas could come up with" is another death star. What does that say about Kennedy star wars? A third death star? And a bunch of mini death stars? That's what happens when you have zero plan. You end up with something that comes off as glorified fan fiction more than actual star wars.

I'm pretty sure most people acknowledge that The Force Awakens rehashes a lot of what came before.

I still like it as the security blanket of Star Wars. It feels comforting after the CGI heavy prequels.

In my opinion, hiring JJ and letting him do his whole mystery box thing was the root mistake. It’s not just that he didn’t coordinate with the other film makers, but he didn’t have any sort of actual idea of what he was setting up.

And then disregarded the answers to those mysteries he set up. Rian was correct that there was no logical known character for Rey to be related to, and then we get the Palpatine reveal which doesn't amount to anything because they didn't set it up.

As I said when Rise of Skywalker was released, having Rey grapple with going to the dark side would have been fine, even if a rehash of Anakin's story, but it didn't work because she never actually struggled with a decision.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Why are we rehashing the last 9 years of Star Wars (yet again) in a thread that is suppose to be about Spoilers for Acolyte?

I suggest we create a new thread if we're going to continue this discussion, just a friendly suggestion.

I tried that. No one used it.

 

[Disney Irish]

I tried that. No one used it.

Of course not, because they rather gripe in any other thread about past grievances.

 

[lazyboy97o]

He absolutely 100% had a plan. Did things change and modulate from his original outline? Of course. That's what a good creative will do. Being able to recognize what might not be working, or what would work better is an essential attribute to have as a creative.

No he did not. You keep trying to making it about little details when he absolutely did not have the bigger picture outlined. At best you could say he had a vague idea of the larger universe but it was nowhere near close to what could be described as even a rough outline.