SPOILER: The Acolyte -- Disney+ Star Wars -- begins June 5, 2024

[erasure fan1]

Also some choose not to focus on the negative about things they love. That doesn't make them shills or dusters or any other jab you want to throw at them.

That's great, I have no issues with that attitude. The problem is when people do critique something and are told they're wrong. Especially in a series like Acolyte when the storytelling is criticized, you get bombarded with negative pushback. When I'm not sure how anyone can defend it. I don't call people out when they criticize something like Michael Bays storytelling in transformers. Why? Even though I enjoy the movie I can understand the issues. So when there are valid complaints, and are told no, you're wrong. It comes off as shilling.

And don't get me wrong it can go both ways. I don't like encanto, and liked the music less. I voiced that when the discussions were happening. I always said, that's on me, it's not my style... Because obviously the amount of people who loved it well outnumbered my opinion. Just like the vast majority didn't care for the storytelling in acolyte. So if someone doesn't agree, maybe they're in the minority. And if they liked it, great, I really am glad. But just admit that you are the outlier. Fyi I this isn't directed at you, just giving the why that label gets thrown around.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Its not written by Orson Welles, its Star Wars. Its a popcorn flick Saturday afternoon franchise. It doesn't have to be some smart franchise that makes you think, heck none of the OT made you think.

You don’t understand Star Wars…it appears

It’s not measured…it set the measurements.

The OT didn’t have characters who didn’t believe the story they were in…that’s what the current stuff peddle. Just empty suits (like Bob)…and 5 year old weenies.

The problem with people who don’t understand Star Wars is they don’t get that it was not for kids…it was classic storytelling themes…that kids just happened to love.

And they idiot George started disputing that when he screwed up…then Bob believed that excuse when he bought it.


Maybe it’s not a matter of “fan service” in this case? Maybe there is no other way and the label doesn’t apply?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's great, I have no issues with that attitude. The problem is when people do critique something and are told they're wrong. Especially in a series like Acolyte when the storytelling is criticized, you get bombarded with negative pushback. When I'm not sure how anyone can defend it. I don't call people out when they criticize something like Michael Bays storytelling in transformers. Why? Even though I enjoy the movie I can understand the issues. So when there are valid complaints, and are told no, you're wrong. It comes off as shilling.

And don't get me wrong it can go both ways. I don't like encanto, and liked the music less. I voiced that when the discussions were happening. I always said, that's on me, it's not my style... Because obviously the amount of people who loved it well outnumbered my opinion. Just like the vast majority didn't care for the storytelling in acolyte. So if someone doesn't agree, maybe they're in the minority. And if they liked it, great, I really am glad. But just admit that you are the outlier. Fyi I this isn't directed at you, just giving the why that label gets thrown around.

I’ll say this again…it’s about the label.

If the same stuff as being made by Warner bros or universal…everyone here would blast it.

 

[Disney Irish]

That's great, I have no issues with that attitude. The problem is when people do critique something and are told they're wrong. Especially in a series like Acolyte when the storytelling is criticized, you get bombarded with negative pushback. When I'm not sure how anyone can defend it. I don't call people out when they criticize something like Michael Bays storytelling in transformers. Why? Even though I enjoy the movie I can understand the issues. So when there are valid complaints, and are told no, you're wrong. It comes off as shilling.

And don't get me wrong it can go both ways. I don't like encanto, and liked the music less. I voiced that when the discussions were happening. I always said, that's on me, it's not my style... Because obviously the amount of people who loved it well outnumbered my opinion. Just like the vast majority didn't care for the storytelling in acolyte. So if someone doesn't agree, maybe they're in the minority. And if they liked it, great, I really am glad. But just admit that you are the outlier. Fyi I this isn't directed at you, just giving the why that label gets thrown around.

The thing though is that its human nature to defend the things you like, even if the majority of others say you're wrong, and vice-versa. So just because some counter your critiques doesn't make your critiques any less valid even if they disagree with you, just like their opinions aren't less valid just because they like something that you critique. What we've lost in this era of social media and fandom is the ability to accept that its fine to have a difference of opinions, that not everyone has to like or dislike something just because you're a part of the fandom. That is the issue I've seen on this site and other sites likes especially over the last few years. Many (not saying you) can't accept that people can like X that Disney puts out because "everyone must hate it because that is how I feel and if you don't feel the same way you're not being honest or willing to accept the truth and so are a shill".

And while maybe your post isn't directed at me specifically, I've been called a shill (I'm still waiting for these magical paychecks that I'm evidently suppose to be getting) and pixie duster more times than I can count on this board. And both of those terms have taken on a new kind of negative connotation over the last 5-10 years as Disney hate has taken over the narrative.

 

[Disney Irish]

You don’t understand Star Wars…it appears

It’s not measured…it set the measurements.

The OT didn’t have characters who didn’t believe the story they were in…that’s what the current stuff peddle. Just empty suits (like Bob)…and 5 year old weenies.

The problem with people who don’t understand Star Wars is they don’t get that it was not for kids…it was classic storytelling themes…that kids just happened to love.

And they idiot George started disputing that when he screwed up…then Bob believed that excuse when he bought it.


Maybe it’s not a matter of “fan service” in this case? Maybe there is no other way and the label doesn’t apply?

Or maybe I understand Star Wars better than you want to admit.

You can admonish me all you want. But if the creator of the franchise said he created it for 12 year olds, his direct quote, then maybe you're holding it up on an unachievable pedestal because you don't want to admit that for the last 47 year you've been in love with a franchise for kids. The fandom tries to make it something its not, its not this sophisticated franchise, its simple and meant to be easily digestible because its made for kids. Too many lost sight of that because they grew up and expected the franchise to grow up with them.

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

Even if you have a cast that looks completely different, you can't escape the bad script. Maybe a more talented director could have navigated it better, but even that's a long shot.

 

[erasure fan1]

The thing though is that its human nature to defend the things you like, even if the majority of others say you're wrong, and vice-versa. So just because some counter your critiques doesn't make your critiques any less valid even if they disagree with you, just like their opinions aren't less valid just because they like something that you critique.

Oh I know it's human nature to defend what you love. I do it all the time. Disagreeing is fine. But what I'm really talking about is, someone might love six flags. They might just like it better than Disney, I know a few. You can have that opinion, 100%. I'm not going to agree obviously, but if that's what you like, have at it. But have the integrity to say, yea I know it's crazy and I know It's just me. If you sit there and say no, you're wrong six flags is better and your opinion is absolutely wrong. That's where the problem is.

It's not something like what's better, space or thunder mountain? That's probably more 50/50. As I said, when the VAST majority feel one way, and you don't, you are probably the outlier. And that's fine, just know that you are. My opinion was considered dumb because I said the storytelling was bad... You know the thing that almost everyone agrees with. I was also one of the few who stuck up for it and gave it a chance. I watched it until the end and said I liked the concept of the show but it was poorly executed. So if that's the stance someone wants to take on that opinion, you will probably end up with the shill or troll label.

 

[Disney Irish]

Oh I know it's human nature to defend what you love. I do it all the time. Disagreeing is fine. But what I'm really talking about is, someone might love six flags. They might just like it better than Disney, I know a few. You can have that opinion, 100%. I'm not going to agree obviously, but if that's what you like, have at it. But have the integrity to say, yea I know it's crazy and I know It's just me. If you sit there and say no, you're wrong six flags is better and your opinion is absolutely wrong. That's where the problem is.

It's not something like what's better, space or thunder mountain? That's probably more 50/50. As I said, when the VAST majority feel one way, and you don't, you are probably the outlier. And that's fine, just know that you are. My opinion was considered dumb because I said the storytelling was bad... You know the thing that almost everyone agrees with. I was also one of the few who stuck up for it and gave it a chance. I watched it until the end and said I liked the concept of the show but it was poorly executed. So if that's the stance someone wants to take on that opinion, you will probably end up with the shill or troll label.

I think you're asking too much of people. You're literally asking them to say what they like/love is inferior to something else, that is very hard for people. That might be something you can accept, but that is not something the vast majority of people can accept. Its very easy to be critical of something when you don't like it, its hard to do the same when its something you actually like/love, even when the majority says you're wrong. This is usually when people dig in their heels and defends even harder because now it a matter of pride because many are saying they're wrong.

This is when more understanding is needed in my opinion. Too many are too quick to label people because its just easier than trying to understand where the other is coming from, and it happens on all sides. This is why I don't like labeling people as "shills", "dusters", or even "haters", as once that label is given it makes people close minded and unwilling to understand where that person is coming from, because "oh they're just a shill".

 

[erasure fan1]

You can admonish me all you want. But if the creator of the franchise said he created it for 12 year olds, his direct quote

Yes that is 100% who he said it was made for. Now wether he wanted it to or not, it resonated with a lot more than than that. And I believe that needs to be taken into consideration. But for the most part, I don't think that really matters all that much. There should never be an issue making something for kids, and keeping it engaging for teens and adults. Walt Disney, Jim Henson and many others have been able to thread that needle. I'd say Favreau did a great job with that.

Too many lost sight of that because they grew up and expected the franchise to grow up with them.

I don't know. I think most just want good stories. When George said the prequels weren't liked by fans because they saw the originals when they were 10. The issue I have with that, is the OT didn't have fart and poop jokes. The OT didn't really play down to the 10 or 12yr old group. I really don't think that's an issue with Disney star wars though. My honest feeling is, keep it for kids. I don't really think it needs to necessarily "grow up". At this point in the life of star wars, there should be room for both. I know this is easier said than done but you need quality stories, good writers, that feel like star wars.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yes that is 100% who he said it was made for. Now wether he wanted it to or not, it resonated with a lot more than than that. And I believe that needs to be taken into consideration. But for the most part, I don't think that really matters all that much. There should never be an issue making something for kids, and keeping it engaging for teens and adults. Walt Disney, Jim Henson and many others have been able to thread that needle. I'd say Favreau did a great job with that.

Yes, but you have some like SirWalt here who think George didn't intend it for kids and he only started lying and saying it was when people became critical of it. And on that I call BS, it was always for kids as he himself said. As for threading the needle I think it does for some shows and not so much for others, more on that below.

I don't know. I think most just want good stories. When George said the prequels weren't liked by fans because they saw the originals when they were 10. The issue I have with that, is the OT didn't have fart and poop jokes. The OT didn't really play down to the 10 or 12yr old group. I really don't think that's an issue with Disney star wars though. My honest feeling is, keep it for kids. I don't really think it needs to necessarily "grow up". At this point in the life of star wars, there should be room for both. I know this is easier said than done but you need quality stories, good writers, that feel like star wars.

Andor for example I don't think was written for kids, that was clearly written for Star Wars adults. So I think they do find ways to make SW content for all different kinds of audiences. Its just that shows like Acolyte which is clearly suppose to be more geared toward kids gets an unfair label as being "dumbed" down because its not as sophisticated as Andor. Now yes the writing could have been a whole lot better. But it is meant for a younger audience, and should be viewed through those eyes rather than trying to blame it for being something its not.

 

[flynnibus]

I think you're asking too much of people. You're literally asking them to say what they like/love is inferior to something else, that is very hard for people. That might be something you can accept, but that is not something the vast majority of people can accept. Its very easy to be critical of something when you don't like it, its hard to do the same when its something you actually like/love, even when the majority says you're wrong. This is usually when people dig in their heels and defends even harder because now it a matter of pride because many are saying they're wrong.

I think you both have gone a long way around of just trying to say 'objectivity' - the ability to separate yourself or personal beliefs/stake from your assessment. It's that simple.

Honestly I don't think objectivity over Disneywas an issue with anything in this thread. The problem was many couldn't differentiate between apathy and dislike... or worse.. taking criticism of critiques as defense OF THE SHOW... or in the case of spam-a-lot.. Defense of Disney's management of Star Wars.

Meanwhile.. discussion about the actual script, characters, and how the show was constructed is lost because people dumb their retorts down to arguing you must be defending Disney. Meanwhile, people like me didn't really like the show. That doesn't mean all criticism is now valid and unleash anything and everything as long as it's anti-Acolyte.

I mean come on... this isn't the Nintendo vs Sega fanboi threads of the 80s. Do better people.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think you both have gone a long way around of just trying to say 'objectivity' - the ability to separate yourself or personal beliefs/stake from your assessment. It's that simple.

Honestly I don't think objectivity over Disneywas an issue with anything in this thread. The problem was many couldn't differentiate between apathy and dislike... or worse.. taking criticism of critiques as defense OF THE SHOW... or in the case of spam-a-lot.. Defense of Disney's management of Star Wars.

Meanwhile.. discussion about the actual script, characters, and how the show was constructed is lost because people dumb their retorts down to arguing you must be defending Disney. Meanwhile, people like me didn't really like the show. That doesn't mean all criticism is now valid and unleash anything and everything as long as it's anti-Acolyte.

I mean come on... this isn't the Nintendo vs Sega fanboi threads of the 80s. Do better people.

I don't disagree, I just think it hard for people to be completely objective, or even somewhat objective, when talking about things they like/love. Whereas, like I mentioned, its very easy to be critical of something if you don't like it.

My overall opinion, and its the reason why you don't see me rage posting here, life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, so be it, move on and find something else. I rather post about the things I like than spend cycles of my life posting about why I hate/dislike something. There is enough negativity in the world, no reason I need to add to it. If some call that being a "shill" or "not being honest" or whatever, so be it. But that doesn't sum me up, they don't know me.

 

[flynnibus]

My overall opinion, and its the reason why you don't see me rage posting here, life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, so be it, move on and find something else. I rather post about the things I like than spend cycles of my life posting about why I hate/dislike something.

Exactly.. which is ironically a point brought up in this very thread and people were stumped that people didn't want to go in circles over the same stuff over and over and were ready to look for the next thing. This is part of the toxicity I mentioned. There is nothing to win here... there is no war or people to conquer. Discuss what was there and if you found this product not entertaining, you moved onto something else to be entertained with.

Moving on isn't complacency - it's putting your energy into something better.

I think shehulk was the dumbest thing Disney has done in DTC to date... I don't need to keep telling everyone that until they agree with me or keep shehulk threads alive just so everyone knows... I'll discuss it where appropriate.

But some people will keep that stuff on hot standby to whip out every 10mins when discussing something completely different. It's like bringing up film 1941 when ever someone has something to say about Jurrasic Park or Back to the Future.. they moved on... many others simply can't. And BTW.. I like 1941 too.. come at me

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

12 year old kids today don’t give two s**ts about SW. Make content for your main demo that spends money on SW. 30+ years old and probably 70% males.
They have maybe the most valuable brand in film but they aren’t content with the demo which is not diverse enough for them.
And the number of hardcore SW fans they thought would eat up whatever they sh** out is shrinking

 

[Disney Irish]

12 year old kids today don’t give two s**ts about SW. Make content for your main demo that spends money on SW. 30+ years old and probably 70% males.
They have maybe the most valuable brand in film but they aren’t content with the demo which is not diverse enough for them.
And the number of hardcore SW fans they thought would eat up whatever they sh** out is shrinking

Problem with that is that is also a shrinking market.

There is a reason why Disney is been releasing a bunch of SW cartoons over the last few years, like Young Jedi Adventures. Unless you really think they made that specifically for 30+ yr old males....

 

[erasure fan1]

I think you're asking too much of people. You're literally asking them to say what they like/love is inferior to something else, that is very hard for people. That might be something you can accept, but that is not something the vast majority of people can accept. Its very easy to be critical of something when you don't like it, its hard to do the same when its something you actually like/love, even when the majority says you're wrong. This is usually when people dig in their heels and defends even harder because now it a matter of pride because many are saying they're wrong.

I see what you're saying. I guess it's really not that hard for me sperate. When the absolute majority is on the other side, it's not hard for me to see I'm the outlier. I'm not asking anyone to change what they like/enjoy... I'm not even asking them to defend it. But like in my example, yea, my being critical of the storytelling is somehow WAYYYY off base. It would be like me calling someone dumb for critiquing space mountain because it's too rough. Everyone knows it, most everyone agrees with it. If I find getting banged around while on it fun. Great for me. But trying to call someone out for it, that's the dumb thing. I don't think it's all the big of an ask really.

This is when more understanding is needed in my opinion. Too many are too quick to label people because its just easier than trying to understand where the other is coming from, and it happens on all sides. This is why I don't like labeling people as "shills", "dusters", or even "haters", as once that label is given it makes people close minded and unwilling to understand where that person is coming from, because "oh they're just a shill".

I get that too. But more understanding is a two way street. I don't need to understand someone who is hell bent on defending Disney in this situation and just has problem with me because they've decided to label me a hater. I fully understand when people have an opinion contrary to mine. It doesn't bother me until situations like I've been talking about happen.

 

[Disney Irish]

I see what you're saying. I guess it's really not that hard for me sperate. When the absolute majority is on the other side, it's not hard for me to see I'm the outlier. I'm not asking anyone to change what they like/enjoy... I'm not even asking them to defend it. But like in my example, yea, my being critical of the storytelling is somehow WAYYYY off base. It would be like me calling someone dumb for critiquing space mountain because it's too rough. Everyone knows it, most everyone agrees with it. If I find getting banged around while on it fun. Great for me. But trying to call someone out for it, that's the dumb thing. I don't think it's all the big of an ask really.

I get that too. But more understanding is a two way street. I don't need to understand someone who is hell bent on defending Disney in this situation and just has problem with me because they've decided to label me a hater. I fully understand when people have an opinion contrary to mine. It doesn't bother me until situations like I've been talking about happen.

Well maybe in this case you're more of an outlier than you realize.

While I would hope we all strive for a little more understanding, especially in person, on social media where everyone is nameless faceless avatars its easy to just dig in and defend your position no matter what side you fall on. This is why I'm saying you might be asking, or more precisely expecting, too much from most people. Its might be easy for you, not so much for everyone else.

This is why I go back to this.....

My overall opinion, and its the reason why you don't see me rage posting here, life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, so be it, move on and find something else. I rather post about the things I like than spend cycles of my life posting about why I hate/dislike something. It makes life to much easier when you just let things like this go.

 

[erasure fan1]

I think shehulk was the dumbest thing Disney has done in DTC to date... I don't need to keep telling everyone that until they agree with me or keep shehulk threads alive just so everyone knows... I'll discuss it where appropriate.

Oh I guarantee you have something to say if during a discussion if someone says, if only Andor was as well put together show as she hulk. You aren't the person to just let that slide on by.

Problem with that is that is also a shrinking market.

There is a reason why Disney is been releasing a bunch of SW cartoons over the last few years, like Young Jedi Adventures. Unless you really think they made that specifically for 30+ yr old males....

Here's where I see it a bit different. Star wars came out in the 70s. It's never had a problem gaining new generations of fans. This "shrinking of original fans" narrative seems to be a Disney manufactured thing. Go back to before Disney purchased lucasfilm. I'm not sure how many star wars events you went to. But in all my comic conventions, toy shows, star wars events like star wars weekends, star wars nights at sporting events... One thing that always amazed me was how many new young fans there always were.

I know it gets poo-pooed a lot around here. But before the sequels I was seeing plenty of kids at my kids Halloween parades as luke, vader, Leia, storm troopers, boba Fett, Jedi... We're talking about generations of kids interested in a nearly 50yr old franchise. I'm not saying you never do anything new. You just don't need to change the fundamentals of star wars in order for it to gain a new audience. Especially when the old audience was stronger than ever before the sequels. The force awakens proves it. If the fan base was at all shrinking, that movie does not hit as hard as it did in my opinion.

 

[erasure fan1]

Well maybe in this case you're more of an outlier than you realize.

Touche. That is true.

My overall opinion, and its the reason why you don't see me rage posting here, life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, so be it, move on and find something else. I rather post about the things I like than spend cycles of my life posting about why I hate/dislike something.

I agree. That's the funny part, I wasn't raging over it. I was actually sticking up for it for the most part and giving it the benefit of the doubt by reserving my judgement till I had seen the whole show.

 

[Disney Irish]

Oh I guarantee you have something to say if during a discussion if someone says, if only Andor was as well put together show as she hulk. You aren't the person to just let that slide on by.

Here's where I see it a bit different. Star wars came out in the 70s. It's never had a problem gaining new generations of fans. This "shrinking of original fans" narrative seems to be a Disney manufactured thing. Go back to before Disney purchased lucasfilm. I'm not sure how many star wars events you went to. But in all my comic conventions, toy shows, star wars events like star wars weekends, star wars nights at sporting events... One thing that always amazed me was how many new young fans there always were.

I know it gets poo-pooed a lot around here. But before the sequels I was seeing plenty of kids at my kids Halloween parades as luke, vader, Leia, storm troopers, boba Fett, Jedi... We're talking about generations of kids interested in a nearly 50yr old franchise. I'm not saying you never do anything new. You just don't need to change the fundamentals of star wars in order for it to gain a new audience. Especially when the old audience was stronger than ever before the sequels. The force awakens proves it. If the fan base was at all shrinking, that movie does not hit as hard as it did in my opinion.

My point was that you don't just make content for the 30+ yr old male market only as that poster was saying. How they want to capture the younger generations is the part that can be debated, I think the Young Jedi Adventures series is pretty good, but you don't just stop making content for every other market.