News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

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Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with the perspective that this is about replacing SotS more than PatF needing more representation in the parks.

Is it really? Because if that were truly the case, they could easily close the ride for two months, remove the 5 characters that have anything to do with the film, and replace the soundtrack with anything else (public domain western songs, old American songs, Disney songs, etc). It’s not as if the 70 other animatronics or random caves have anything to do with SotS whatsoever (just as they wouldn’t have much to do with PatF if those characters were just plopped in). It’s mostly original.

I think they’ve looked at this as an opportunity to replace one of their least lucrative properties with one of their most lucrative (the Disney Princess Brand). So in a sense, it is about getting PatF in there. It would not take an exuberant amount of time and money to remove references to SotS from the ride, if that was the top concern.
 

Ghost93

Well-Known Member
Is it really? Because if that were truly the case, they could easily close the ride for two months, remove the 5 characters that have anything to do with the film, and replace the soundtrack with anything else (public domain western songs, old American songs, Disney songs, etc). It’s not as if the 70 other animatronics or random caves have anything to do with SotS whatsoever (just as they wouldn’t have much to do with PatF if those characters were just plopped in). It’s mostly original.

I think they’ve looked at this as an opportunity to replace one of their least lucrative properties with one of their most lucrative (the Disney Princess Brand). So in a sense, it is about getting PatF in there. It would not take an exuberant amount of time and money to remove references to SotS from the ride, if that was the top concern.
The cheapest option to retheme Splash Mountain would have been Disney's Robin Hood. The Robin hood characters have the same type of anthropomorphic look as the Song of the South and America Sings characters. All they need to do was get rid of the Brers, and add in Robin Hood, Maid Marian, Little John and a few of the other Robin Hood characters. The America sings animatronics would have blended in pretty easily with the Robin Hood characters. In the Disneyland version the rabbits singing "Burrow's Lament" could have been reskinned into the rabbit family that Robin Hood helps throughout the film.

Instead of Brer Fox throwing Brer Rabbit into the Briar Patch, the climax of the ride would be Robin Hood jumping into the river to escape the fire consuming Prince John's Castle. "Zip a Dee Doo Dah Zip a Dee Ay, my oh My What a Wonderful Day" at the end could easily be turned into "Ooh De Lally Ooh De Lally Golly what a Day!" Both songs use made-up words and are about having a good day! Robin Hood also evokes a similar feel to the animated segments of Song of the South.

Personally, I think Princess and the Frog is a better retheme than Robin Hood due to it being a more water-focused IP and due to it potentially feeling more "fresh", but I think a Robin Hood Splash Mountain would have worked pretty darn well.

I think Disney wanted to get rid of SotS AND have more Black representation in the parks and the PatF retheme allowed them to kill two birds with one stone.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
Personally, I think Princess and the Frog is a better retheme than Robin Hood due to it being a more water-focused IP and due to it potentially feeling more "fresh", but I think a Robin Hood Splash Mountain would have worked pretty darn well.
I mean ... There's also the fact that it's in a land based around the American frontier while Robin Hood takes place in 12th century England. 🤷‍♂️
 

Tha Realest

Well-Known Member
I mean, come on it was the 32nd biggest film of that year, it was HUGE!

Not as big as those other culturally resonating classics that came out that year such as "It's Complicated" or "Couples Retreat" of course, but HUGE!

And of course it didn't come close to that animated classic "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs" that came out that same year, but oh yes, it was HUGE!!!

And it made less than half of "Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Squeakquel" from that same year, but it was HUGE!!!

Now that Disney owns Fox, maybe we can convert Pirates or Mansion to Alvin and the Chipmunks seeing as it was over TWICE as big as PATF!

(Rationalization is fun!)
Adjusted for inflation, SOTS is far more successful than PATF
 

Ghost93

Well-Known Member
Adjusted for inflation, SOTS is far more successful than PATF
SoTS was a bit of a box office disappointment in 1946. Its financial success was due to multiple re-releases. In 1946 it wasn't the embarrassing flop that movies like Fantasia were, but it fell below Disney's expectations, and the controversy and protests didn't help either. The stereotypes and romanticized plantation setting featured in the movie were commonplace in the 1930s, but by 1946, critics were already finding them to be outdated and offensive. The 1956 re-release was less controversial, but it also made less money. It sorta flew under the radar. The movie was not re-released in the 60s due to the tensions associated with the Civil rights movement. However, segments of the movie did air on TV, and the Brer characters had a large presence in Disney parks.

Song of the South's real popularity came in the 1970s. While the movie wasn't a critical or commercial hit in 1946, there was an entire generation of children who grew up with the Little Golden Books, record players, comic strips, toys and other associated Song of the South merchandise. Plus, Zip-A-Dee-Dooh Dah had become a Disney anthem. So when the movie was re-released in 1972, it saw a surge in popularity due to the adults who had a nostalgia for SotS and its associated merchandise when they were children. The 1972 re-release was the most profitable re-release of a Disney movie at that time. This release also didn't see much backlash, and the reviews were much more positive — due to a combination of nostalgia and a reevaluation of the film after the passing of Walt Disney. The 1972 re-release was so popular that Disney re-released Song of the South again in 1973 as a double feature with the Aristocats, in 1980 for the 100th anniversary of the Joel Chandler Harris Stories and in 1986 for the movie's 40th anniversary. There was mild criticism of the two 1980s re-releases from some Black writers, but because the 1980s was a pretty conservative decade the criticisms against the film were overshadowed by those who were fans of the film. The 80s were a very anti-PC time so a movie like SotS wasn't as offensive to the general public as it would be in a more PC era like the 90s. And as the movie got older, there was a growing revisionist narrative that the movie was just "of its time" and that no one really found it offensive in the 1940s.

I do wonder what the reputation of the movie would have been in the ensuing decades if Disney had simply released the film on VHS in 1987 after it's final theatrical release and kept it available for home viewing afterward. On one hand, more people would have been aware of Splash Mountains ties to a movie with racist stereotypes. ON the other hand, the availability of Song of the South might have made it a less notorious and controversial film. It may have actually become more "forgotten" as it would have no longer been this mysterious object of obsession by both fans and foes of the film. I believe if SotS had a VHS and DVD release it would have ended up like Swiss Family Robinson, Davy Crockett and Pollyanna — a movie fondly remembered by Baby Boomers and Gen X and largely ignored and unseen by millennials and Gen Z.
 

Disgruntled Walt

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
SoTS was a bit of a box office disappointment in 1946. Its financial success was due to multiple re-releases. In 1946 it wasn't the embarrassing flop that movies like Fantasia were, but it fell below Disney's expectations, and the controversy and protests didn't help either. The stereotypes and romanticized plantation setting featured in the movie were commonplace in the 1930s, but by 1946, critics were already finding them to be outdated and offensive. The 1956 re-release was less controversial, but it also made less money. It sorta flew under the radar. The movie was not re-released in the 60s due to the tensions associated with the Civil rights movement. However, segments of the movie did air on TV, and the Brer characters had a large presence in Disney parks.

Song of the South's real popularity came in the 1970s. While the movie wasn't a critical or commercial hit in 1946, there was an entire generation of children who grew up with the Little Golden Books, record players, comic strips, toys and other associated Song of the South merchandise. Plus, Zip-A-Dee-Dooh Dah had become a Disney anthem. So when the movie was re-released in 1972, it saw a surge in popularity due to the adults who had a nostalgia for SotS and its associated merchandise when they were children. The 1972 re-release was the most profitable re-release of a Disney movie at that time. This release also didn't see much backlash, and the reviews were much more positive — due to a combination of nostalgia and a reevaluation of the film after the passing of Walt Disney. The 1972 re-release was so popular that Disney re-released Song of the South again in 1973 as a double feature with the Aristocats, in 1980 for the 100th anniversary of the Joel Chandler Harris Stories and in 1986 for the movie's 40th anniversary. There was mild criticism of the two 1980s re-releases from some Black writers, but because the 1980s was a pretty conservative decade the criticisms against the film were overshadowed by those who were fans of the film. The 80s were a very anti-PC time so a movie like SotS wasn't as offensive to the general public as it would be in a more PC era like the 90s. And as the movie got older, there was a growing revisionist narrative that the movie was just "of its time" and that no one really found it offensive in the 1940s.

I do wonder what the reputation of the movie would have been in the ensuing decades if Disney had simply released the film on VHS in 1987 after it's final theatrical release and kept it available for home viewing afterward. On one hand, more people would have been aware of Splash Mountains ties to a movie with racist stereotypes. ON the other hand, the availability of Song of the South might have made it a less notorious and controversial film. It may have actually become more "forgotten" as it would have no longer been this mysterious object of obsession by both fans and foes of the film. I believe if SotS had a VHS and DVD release it would have ended up like Swiss Family Robinson, Davy Crockett and Pollyanna — a movie fondly remembered by Baby Boomers and Gen X and largely ignored and unseen by millennials and Gen Z.
Even Whoopi Goldberg has called for Song of the South to be released now. C'mon people, it's historical fiction! Let's not try to erase history and Black culture!
 

Disgruntled Walt

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Eh, I think it's a bit insidious to say SotS is black culture.

HOWEVER, aside from the songs and characters, Splash is literally that.
The stories SotS is based on are literally Black culture that were written down by a white man. It's not at all insidious to call it Black culture when that's the origin of the stories.
 

montyz81

Well-Known Member
It feels like it's been forever since the remake was announced. I understand wanting to keep the ride as is open throughout the 50th anniversary, but hopefully, they begin work on the retheme sometime in 2023. If they give it the budget it deserves it could be spectacular. My only worries are Bob Chapek going cheap on the retheme budget. In Magic Kingdom especially a retheme wouldn't be limited to just the ride itself, but also the surrounding area (right now it's in the middle of Frontierland, which is very out of place for a PatF attraction).
How about they just leave it alone! There is no problem with the ride the way it is. Period!
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
You also have to take into consideration that SOTS was the highest-grossing movie of 1946. The second was Notorious. Even if it was a financial failure, none of the movies released that year did very well. The economic boom hadn't happened yet. All of the music in both movies and musicals were all excessively happy or positive--about bright and beautiful days, because WWII had just ended and we had just m*rdered a bunch of Japanese civilians. So whilst Zip-a-dee-doo-dah might also have problematic origins, it falls into the same pattern that every other song of that time period. Musicals like OKLAHOMA!, CAROUSEL, ALLEGRO, STATE FAIR, ON THE TOWN, BRIGADOON, the top songs of 1946, Multiple things can be true at the same time, and historical context is important.

I am not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong. I am just saying that it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
 

Ghost93

Well-Known Member
You also have to take into consideration that SOTS was the highest-grossing movie of 1946. The second was Notorious. Even if it was a financial failure, none of the movies released that year did very well. The economic boom hadn't happened yet. All of the music in both movies and musicals were all excessively happy or positive--about bright and beautiful days, because WWII had just ended and we had just m*rdered a bunch of Japanese civilians. So whilst Zip-a-dee-doo-dah might also have problematic origins, it falls into the same pattern that every other song of that time period. Musicals like OKLAHOMA!, CAROUSEL, ALLEGRO, STATE FAIR, ON THE TOWN, BRIGADOON, the top songs of 1946, Multiple things can be true at the same time, and historical context is important.

I am not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong. I am just saying that it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
SOTS was the highest-grossing movie of 1946 only after multiple re-releases throughout the 20th century. It definitely was not in the top 10 box office the year it came out.

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is a great song, but its success wasn't necessarily due to the movie being popular. It quickly took on a life of its own outside of SotS.
 

Midwest Elitist

Well-Known Member
You also have to take into consideration that SOTS was the highest-grossing movie of 1946. The second was Notorious. Even if it was a financial failure, none of the movies released that year did very well. The economic boom hadn't happened yet. All of the music in both movies and musicals were all excessively happy or positive--about bright and beautiful days, because WWII had just ended and we had just m*rdered a bunch of Japanese civilians. So whilst Zip-a-dee-doo-dah might also have problematic origins, it falls into the same pattern that every other song of that time period. Musicals like OKLAHOMA!, CAROUSEL, ALLEGRO, STATE FAIR, ON THE TOWN, BRIGADOON, the top songs of 1946, Multiple things can be true at the same time, and historical context is important.

I am not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong. I am just saying that it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
i think Zip is more inspired by Camptown Racers (Doo dah!) Than Zip C***.

Even then though, I feel that Minelstry (sp) songs despite their origins, have just turned into classic songs. And of course, pop music succeeding it took some of those elements (took a history in pop music class at Uni).

But even then, I'm still skeptical of it being based on Minelstry at all. It's a nonsense Disney song.

I feel like some people think these guys were maniacally laughing and twirling their moustaches about hiding racism in their creations. I think reality is much more boring than that.

Though I disagree with a lot of things WDWPro says ideologically, I think he hits the nail on the head in his recent interview. The DEI board is out of control and finding NEW problems where there aren't any.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
i think Zip is more inspired by Camptown Racers (Doo dah!) Than Zip C***.

Even then though, I feel that Minelstry (sp) songs despite their origins, have just turned into classic songs. And of course, pop music succeeding it took some of those elements (took a history in pop music class at Uni).

But even then, I'm still skeptical of it being based on Minelstry at all. It's a nonsense Disney song.

I feel like some people think these guys were maniacally laughing and twirling their moustaches about hiding racism in their creations. I think reality is much more boring than that.

Though I disagree with a lot of things WDWPro says ideologically, I think he hits the nail on the head in his recent interview. The DEI board is out of control and finding NEW problems where there aren't any.
I am.not saying it is or it isn't, but how ot fits into the pervasive 1946 landscape can't be ignored
 
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