Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[aw14]

Negative. He absolutely supported my position. To wit: "The fact that the “Turkey in the Straw” melody was fitted out with so many racist lyrics is a sad and valuable historical lesson indeed. However, the idea that today’s ice cream trucks are playing “Zip ****”—even as unwitting historical holdover—is too fragile to launch any anti-ice-cream boycotts as we head into the summer months." I agree with that fully. This is 2020. Children today do not associate that tune with racist lyrics. But the history of the song is unmistakable. According to historians the racist version of the song came first: "It is difficult determine an original date for either song, but most sources say that “Old Zip ****” came before “Turkey in the Straw.” The tune was popular in the 1830s, and the melody still remains popular."

Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw - 2018 - Question of the Month - Jim Crow Museum

www.ferris.edu

But we're not concerned with "today's ice cream trucks". We're concerned with old Walt Disney movies and cartoons. In particular the 1928 cartoon Steamboat Willie and the 1946 movie Song of the South. Two of the songs in each of those films are derived from and directly based upon a racist song that was popularized in black-face minstrel shows:
View attachment 492596

Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw - 2018 - Question of the Month - Jim Crow Museum

www.ferris.edu

TWDC clearly realizes the problem. Thus far, they have dealt with this problem in an unsatisfactory manner. As you know, they have put Song of the South in the famous Disney vault with no word as to when or if ever it will again be released. Splash Mountain is going to get a complete re-theme to another IP. And Steamboat Willie (along with other problematic cartoons and movies) now have a rather weak disclaimer.

So, in one instance Disney has decided to hide the offensive movie in the vault. In the second instance they decided to get rid of the offensive attraction and re-theme. In the third instance they added the following disclaimer, “This program is presented as originally created. It may contain outdated cultural depictions.”

Why did they take these actions? Wouldn't it be better to confront the issue and let the chips fall where they may? Well, let's look at the way Warner Brothers handled it with the Tom and Jerry cartoons. Their disclaimer says, “Tom and Jerry shorts may depict some ethnic and racial prejudices that were once commonplace in American society. Such depictions were wrong then and are wrong today.”

So, Warner Brothers decided to confront the issue and admit some of those cartoons were racist. TWDC wants to protect Walt Disney's image. After all, the company is named after him. So, you don't want to admit that your founder was a racist. That makes perfect sense as to why Disney's disclaimer is so weak and generic. We all know that Walt Disney was a hands on guy and nothing left the studio without his seal of approval. That clearly tells us that Walt saw nothing wrong with allowing cartoons and movies with degrading racial stereotypes to go out for public display with his name boldly on the title card.

If Disney would confront the problem and just admit that Walt was indeed a racist, they could write a truthful disclaimer for each of the problematic movies, cartoons and attractions. I think the chances of that happening are rather slim.

Again- he did t. Feel free to reread- as I already quoted you from the article you posted.

 

[aw14]

The Politics section was a mistake. Now we have to deal with Phil's endless tangent about Song Of The South, Splash Mountain, and Turkey In The Straw.

Sadly- this poster seems to find racism in just about everything. Not realizing that characterization is racist in and of itself.

 

[Chi84]

It's not necessary to find something "racist" in order to agree that we can do better.

People are a product of their times in terms of thinking, attitudes, sensibilities, etc. There have always been (and still are) people who mistreat those of different races out of hatred and fear. But I believe most people want to get along with each other. People in different times may have said and done things that seemed innocuous or accepted at the time, but are now considered hurtful or insensitive. It's not necessary to label those people as racist in order to acknowledge that their actions hurt people, regardless of their intent. It's also wrong to dismiss hurtful actions on the basis that the perpetrators didn't know any better or that the victims at the time didn't mind - they were also products of their time.

It's difficult to think outside of one's own experiences, which leads people to dismiss the complaints or objections of those who are different from them. People are so busy defending themselves and their opinions that they are cutting off open and honest communication. It's so easy to do on the internet - someone reads the first line of a message and posts an angry reply without taking the time to digest and consider the other person's position. The anonymity of these posts makes it easy to disrespect people in ways that would never be done face to face.

Whether or not a cartoon or ride was intended to be racist should not be the end of the discussion. Knowing what we know now, giving due consideration to current sensibilities, what can we do to be better in terms of diversity and inclusiveness?

 

[Phil12]

The Politics section was a mistake. Now we have to deal with Phil's endless tangent about Song Of The South, Steamboat Willie, Splash Mountain, and Turkey In The Straw for a couple more pages. And I thought ford91exploder was bad.

Hardly a tangent. The racist tropes explain why the attraction is being re-themed.

 

[Phil12]

Again- he did t. Feel free to reread- as I already quoted you from the article you posted.

And yet you still refuse to accept the facts. You're unable to offer an explanation for locking a movie in the vault, the re-theme of an attraction that continues to attract huge crowds and the disclaimer used only on a select few movies and cartoons.

In your world there's nothing wrong with the movie, the attraction is just fine as it is, and those disclaimers are really not needed.

Fortunately, TWDC has taken these actions to help the company and its shareholders.

 

[aw14]

And yet you still refuse to accept the facts. You're unable to offer an explanation for locking a movie in the vault, the re-theme of an attraction that continues to attract huge crowds and the disclaimer used only on a select few movies and cartoons.

In your world there's nothing wrong with the movie, the attraction is just fine as it is, and those disclaimers are really not needed.

Fortunately, TWDC has taken these actions to help the company and its shareholders.

Oh- a reason? The mob that moans and groans about everything they perceive as a social blight.

The attraction is fine- thanks for acknowledging

 

[Phil12]

Oh- a reason? The mob that moans and groans about everything they perceive as a social blight.

The attraction is fine- thanks for acknowledging

You're wrong again.

"In a recent interview with Disney fan club publication D23, Bob Weiss reiterated a previous statement from Disney Parks that the decision to retheme Splash Mountain pre-dates calls from fans to do exactly that."

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/25...-and-the-frog-for-the-splash-mountain-retheme

 

[aw14]

You're wrong again.

"In a recent interview with Disney fan club publication D23, Bob Weiss reiterated a previous statement from Disney Parks that the decision to retheme Splash Mountain pre-dates calls from fans to do exactly that."

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/25...-and-the-frog-for-the-splash-mountain-retheme

Oh so it has nothing to do with the public pressure of the woke ? Ok got it...whatever you say. We all know corporations always tell the truth in the reasoning for their decisions. Just oddly coincidental....got it

 

[brb1006]

If Disney would confront the problem and just admit that Walt was indeed a racist, they could write a truthful disclaimer for each of the problematic movies, cartoons and attractions. I think the chances of that happening are rather slim.

You're starting to sound like Abigail Disney and not in a good way. Let me guess, you believe Walt was anti-semetic (despite getting debunked countless times).

 

[LittleBuford]

You're starting to sound like Abigail Disney and not in a good way. Let me guess, you believe Walt was anti-semetic (despite getting debunked countless times).

I don’t understand why people are so intent on maintaining that Walt Disney didn’t have some anti-Semitic and racist attitudes. Most people at the time did. The fact that his cartoons and films contained elements deemed so problematic that they they were removed decades ago (Sunflower in Fantasia, the Jewish salesman in the Three Little Pigs) shows that he was not above the bigotry and stereotyping typical of his time. We can still enjoy what he created without pretending that he was perfect.

 

[Californian Elitist]

The Politics section was a mistake. Now we have to deal with Phil's endless tangent about Song Of The South, Steamboat Willie, Splash Mountain, and Turkey In The Straw for a couple more pages. And I thought ford91exploder was bad.

You don’t have to deal with anything. If their posts are that frustrating for you, use the ignore option. Or simply stop returning to this thread to respond to them.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I don’t understand why people are so intent on maintaining that Walt Disney didn’t have some anti-Semitic and racist attitudes. Most people at the time did. The fact that his cartoons and films contained elements deemed so problematic that they they were removed decades ago (Sunflower in Fantasia, the Jewish salesman in the Three Little Pigs) shows that he was not above the bigotry and stereotyping typical of his time. We can still enjoy what he created without pretending that he was perfect.

I agree, but I also feel like there's a huge difference between making use of stereotypes in cartoons and being an overt racist.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I don’t understand why people are so intent on maintaining that Walt Disney didn’t have some anti-Semitic and racist attitudes. Most people at the time did. The fact that his cartoons and films contained elements deemed so problematic that they they were removed decades ago (Sunflower in Fantasia, the Jewish salesman in the Three Little Pigs) shows that he was not above the bigotry and stereotyping typical of his time. We can still enjoy what he created without pretending that he was perfect.

Thank you. Some speak as if the possibility of someone, particularly Walt Disney, who lived during the early to mid 1900s in America being racist/bigoted and held stereotypical beliefs is low (especially being white). It’s not. It’s clear he made similar decisions as other cartoon companies that depicted minorities stereotypically and negatively.

I still admire him and everything he did, but it’s okay to bring things like this up and talk about them.

 

[LittleBuford]

I agree, but I also feel like there's a huge difference between making use of stereotypes in cartoons and being an overt racist.

I don’t think one can quantify things in that way. What we today characterise as overtly racist would probably have been acceptable to most people back then. Was Walt Disney at the far end of the racism spectrum? Absolutely not. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of racism—even overt racism of the type exemplified by the two examples I offered. Given that almost all of us have cringed at the bigoted things our elderly relatives have said around us—relatives we love and know to be fundamentally decent people—it shouldn’t cause any consternation to accept that Walt Disney (who is, after all, a long-dead stranger) had similarly problematic attitudes.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I don’t think one can quantify things in that way. What we today characterise as overtly racist would probably have been acceptable to most people back then. Was Walt Disney at the far end of the racism spectrum? Absolutely not. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of racism—even overt racism of the type exemplified by the two examples I offered. Given that almost all of us have cringed at the bigoted things our elderly relatives have said around us—relatives we love and know to be fundamentally decent people—it shouldn’t cause any consternation to accept Walt Disney (who is, after all, a long-dead stranger) with all his faults.

He absolutely had his faults, and yes, what is acceptable or considered bigoted or racist changes as society changes. But what I'm trying to say is that the behaviors Walt exhibited were likely a product of the time in which he lived...rather than being based on hatred or fear.

The scene in SotS, for example, in which Uncle Remus and the boy are holding hands...that not the type of thing someone who hates or fears black people would create.

 

[LittleBuford]

He absolutely had his faults, and yes, what is acceptable or considered bigoted or racist changes as society changes. But what I'm trying to say is that the behaviors Walt exhibited were likely a product of the time in which he lived...rather than being based on hatred or fear.

I sort of agree, except that I would say that hatred and fear ultimately underlie all kinds of racism—one can’t really disentangle cause and effect so neatly.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I sort of agree, except that I would say that hatred and fear ultimately underlie all kinds of racism—one can’t really disentangle them so neatly.

I would add ignorance as well. Not ignorance meaning lack of intelligence, but ignorance due to lack of knowledge and exposure to that with which they are not familiar.

 

[LittleBuford]

I would add ignorance as well. Not ignorance meaning lack of intelligence, but ignorance due to lack of knowledge and exposure to that with which they are not familiar.

One of my teachers used to tell us, “Prejudice, ignorance, and fear walk hand-in-hand.” It’s still stuck with me after all these years.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

One of my teachers used to tell us, “Prejudice, ignorance, and fear walk hand-in-hand.” It’s still stuck with me after all these years.

Sounds like a great teacher!

 

[Chi84]

One of my teachers used to tell us, “Prejudice, ignorance, and fear walk hand-in-hand.” It’s still stuck with me after all these years.

I can understand the point @ImperfectPixie is making, though. It’s true that racist stereotypes were born out of hatred and fear, but they were often perpetuated by basically decent people out of ignorance or inadvertence.

My mother used to say things like “He was a [insert race or ethnicity] guy but he knew his job better than anyone else.” To her that was a compliment because that’s the kind of attitude she was raised with and exposed to growing up. She didn’t have a hateful bone in her body. The good thing is that she had an open mind and was willing to discuss, re-examine and reassess her beliefs and recognize the underlying prejudice. Too many people dig in instead of listening and communicating.