Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[ImperfectPixie]

I can understand the point @ImperfectPixie is making, though. It’s true that racist stereotypes were born out of hatred and fear, but they were often perpetuated by basically decent people out of ignorance or inadvertence.

My mother used to say things like “He was a [insert race or ethnicity] guy but he knew his job better than anyone else.” To her that was a compliment because that’s the kind of attitude she was raised with and exposed to growing up. She didn’t have a hateful bone in her body. The good thing is that she had an open mind and was willing to discuss, re-examine and reassess her beliefs and recognize the underlying prejudice. Too many people dig in instead of listening and communicating.

Exactly. And there are some posters here who would never acknowledge that there's a significant difference between your mother and someone who believes in white supremacy.

 

[Chi84]

Exactly. And there are some posters here who would never acknowledge that there's a significant difference between your mother and someone who believes in white supremacy.

They would if they met her She may have harbored some underlying prejudices, but her ideas evolved over time and I believe she always was an outspoken opponent of outright hate groups.

 

[LittleBuford]

I can understand the point @ImperfectPixie is making, though. It’s true that racist stereotypes were born out of hatred and fear, but they were often perpetuated by basically decent people out of ignorance or inadvertence.

My mother used to say things like “He was a [insert race or ethnicity] guy but he knew his job better than anyone else.” To her that was a compliment because that’s the kind of attitude she was raised with and exposed to growing up. She didn’t have a hateful bone in her body. The good thing is that she had an open mind and was willing to discuss, re-examine and reassess her beliefs and recognize the underlying prejudice. Too many people dig in instead of listening and communicating.

I didn’t meant to suggest otherwise, and I tried to make my point in a way that indicated that good people can, without realising it, internalise and perpetuate racist attitudes (which is why I wrote “ultimately underlie” rather than something less mitigated).

 

[Brer Panther]

Please tell me how Brer Rabbit existing is somehow more offensive than the jokes made about Raj's skin color on The Big Bang Theory.

Seriously, there's one episode where he says, "I'm not dark chocolate... I'm melt-in-your-mouth caramel!"

How is that not racist?

 

[Parker in NYC]

Please tell me how Brer Rabbit existing is somehow more offensive than the jokes made about Raj's skin color on The Big Bang Theory.

Seriously, there's one episode where he says, "I'm not dark chocolate... I'm melt-in-your-mouth caramel!"

How is that not racist?

That show ended.

 

[Brer Panther]

That show ended.

Yeah, but reruns are still airing on a bunch of different channels. How come nobody's asking for them to be removed?

Also, the show was still running when the complaints about Apu from The Simpsons were going on.

 

[Parker in NYC]

Yeah, but reruns are still airing on a bunch of different channels. How come nobody's asking for them to be removed?

Also, the show was still running when the complaints about Apu from The Simpsons were going on.

Because people hate Disney.

 

[Chi84]

I don't think people hate Disney, but they do realize it's a much bigger platform than a single TV show.

 

[celluloid]

*Very* aware.

Oh I forgot The hippies are calling it "woke" now, same thing, different name.

 

[Brer Panther]

So "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is racist because it's from a problematic film. Is "You Can Fly" racist because it comes from a movie that also features offensive stereotypes of Native Americans?

 

[Magenta Panther]

For you maybe, but since you're not everybody, don't try to speak for everybody.

I've grown up seeing the character from SotS sing that song over and over again. Before the song went into the permanent vault, that movie clip was on TV with just about every Disney show. It's indelibly printed in my mind to see James Baskett singing it when I hear it.

The irony is that you two understand it separated from its source because Disney was embarrassed (rightfully so) of the source. Disney tried to 'save' the song and animation from that public relations train wreck by burying the source.

But there are lots of people very aware of the source.

*Very* aware.

Aw, did being aware of that hurt you in the feel feels?

No doubt James Baskett is looking down from heaven and saying, "Thank you, SJW prude, for helping to keep my Oscar-winning performance of an Oscar-winning song locked in the Disney vault forever."

 

[Magenta Panther]

And for 12 years, I didn’t know who was giving the remarkable Academy Award winning performance. Just the voice. I think that’s the biggest crime of all. But I realize I’m no longer allowed to appreciate that, so I’ll cut this short.

Don't let the SJWs intimidate you. I saw SotS as a kid and loved it. Uncle Remus reminded me of my grandpa, who died when I was very young. I thought Remus was amazing. Nothing in that movie or in his performance made me think of him as a lesser being. Kids must be carefully taught to see racism in every corner. If you ask me, having a black man as a villain in the first animated Disney film starring a black princess (of sorts) can be seen as racist. How come none of the white people in that film were the villain? Why, the villain's minion is a literal shadow! "Shadow" and "shade" can be used as racial slurs, don't you know. See how this works?

 

[Touchdown]

Don't let the SJWs intimidate you. I saw SotS as a kid and loved it. Uncle Remus reminded me of my grandpa, who died when I was very young. I thought Remus was amazing. Nothing in that movie or in his performance made me think of him as a lesser being. Kids must be carefully taught to see racism in every corner. If you ask me, having a black man as a villain in the first animated Disney film starring a black princess (of sorts) can be seen as racist. How come none of the white people in that film were the villain? Why, the villain's minion is a literal shadow! "Shadow" and "shade" can be used as racial slurs, don't you know. See how this works?

Youre right, the real estate agents and Lawerence weren’t evil in the slightest; all the white people in PatF were saints .

 

[Disneyson]

So "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is racist because it's from a problematic film. Is "You Can Fly" racist because it comes from a movie that also features offensive stereotypes of Native Americans?

No, because that song is about flying and believing in the power of happy memories to transport you to a magical place. In the film, “Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah” is also about being transported to a magical place. But this time Uncle Remus conjures “happy memories” of a a time when he was younger, an era of slavery, a time when, as he says in the film just moments before singing the song, "...'TWAS BETTER ALL 'ROUND.” The song from Peter Pan you are thinking of is “What Made The Red Man Red”.

I do think that Disney needs to address the extended sequence in Peter Pan that is built almost exclusively on racial stereotypes. I also think that there are issues just in general with equating a heavy stereotyped version of indigenous people with pirates, fairies, and mermaids, and the way the Darling children treat them as “curiosities”. But altering the movie, say, on Disney+, will create much more commotion than anything related to SotS. I wonder when Disney will have the guts to do that.

The thing about Disney movies is that yes, they are art. I am not one to call for changing the past, as the past is the way we learn about ourselves and can avoid making errors in the future. But Disney movies are not normal movies. They’re often the first features we see, and are also incredibly important to the structural growth of children all around the world, specifically in the United States. I am of the opinion that all art should be available to be viewed in context. But it is also incredibly important to remember that these stories from 1939 onward are still being viewed today. Many hold up.

I know that a big part of my life, the desire to strive towards selflessness and compassion, was heavily formed in me by Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. For better or for worse, I learned to go to extremes to achieve my dreams from The Little Mermaid. I learned how to understand my father’s workaholism and the fact that my parents had lives separate from mine with Mary Poppins. I also erroneously learned that native people were fundamentally different types of creatures than me that don’t speak proper English and live in a different world that I, like Wendy, do not live in and don’t have any lasting impact on. This is from Peter Pan. Hilariously, Pocahontas was the film that immediately gave me context and helped dispel this — don’t worry, I’ve learned a lot since then, I’m not saying that my only source of emotional intelligence comes from Disney movies. What I am saying is that I am unsure what I would learn from Song of the South if it was part of my life while growing up.

This is the problem with Splash Mountain. It works incredibly well almost entirely out-of-context. However, that is if you ignore the parallels with Bre’r Rabbit to a runaway slave, being chased by white-coded assailants, and then eventually learning that “home sweet home is the lesson today,” learning never again to try to run away, challenge authority, or disrupt the status quo. The thought of the parallels send a shiver down my spine, and I would think it a crazy YouTube conspiracy theory if there were not evidence to back up the reading of this seemingly innocuous story of “going back home where you belong”.

That is surely not the intention of the ride’s story. I think, out of context, the story is akin to The Wizard Of Oz. It is sweet and joyful. And it is a big part about why I love the attraction. It is my favorite one. But the connotation is there. And that is in my opinion why this decision has been made.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I do think that Disney needs to address the extended sequence in Peter Pan that is built almost exclusively on racial stereotypes.

But we know they won't. Same with the crows in Dumbo and any other racial/cultural stereotype in any other Disney movie that isn't Song of the South. Disney threw out one movie to show they "care" so they can save the rest and keep promoting them.

They've put more effort into making new properties with diverse characters, and I think that's more important and effective than constantly scrubbing older properties to fit ever changing views.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I think Disney has a responsibility to produce media that is more inclusive going forward (and not just with token characters).

I think Disney fans have a responsibility to understand that media produced 50, 60, 80 years ago will not necessarily reflect their modern world view. Even children can be educated on this topic and to assume they can't because they're too young/impressionable is wrong.

 

[Disneyson]

But we know they won't. Same with the crows in Dumbo and any other racial/cultural stereotype in any other Disney movie that isn't Song of the South. Disney threw out one movie to show they "care" so they can save the rest and keep promoting them.

Absolutely. I do think that there will come a time when

They've put more effort into making new properties with diverse characters, and I think that's more important and effective than constantly scrubbing older properties to fit ever changing views.

Agreed. But every day Peter Pan walks in the parks is a day that the story is introduced to new people. It’s tricky.

I think Disney has a responsibility to produce media that is more inclusive going forward (and not just with token characters).

I think Disney fans have a responsibility to understand that media produced 50, 60, 80 years ago will not necessarily reflect their modern world view. Even children can be educated on this topic and to assume they can't because they're too young/impressionable is wrong.

Agreed. Re: Pocahontas, even with all of it’s flaws. The trouble is that out-of-product education or context-setting is work that somebody needs to do.

 

[Brer Oswald]

It’s a rather ridiculous assumption to make that “the better past” Remus refers to is a time of slavery. It’s also rather ridiculous to assume SotS exists in a realistic timeframe at all. The “past” is a cartoon wonderland with no other person other than Remus present.

The film is a fairy tale. The Brer Rabbit stories are fairy tales. Likewise, the seven tiny men, the wooden boy, the flying elephant, the deer prince of the forest, the girl in wonderland, and the flying boy who never grew up are all fairy tales coming from different cultures and places around the world.

African Americans deserved a better film for their Fairy Tale than “Song of the South”. I just think it’s a shame we didn’t hold Disney accountable for that, and instead let them say that their Fairy Tale was deserving of nothing at all.

 

[Disneyson]

It’s a rather ridiculous assumption to make that “the better past” Remus refers to is a time of slavery. It’s also rather ridiculous to assume SotS exists in a realistic timeframe at all. The “past” is a cartoon wonderland with no other person other than Remus present.

The film is a fairy tale. The Brer Rabbit stories are fairy tales. Likewise, the seven tiny men, the wooden boy, the flying elephant, the deer prince of the forest, the girl in wonderland, and the flying boy who never grew up are all fairy tales coming from different cultures and places around the world.

African Americans deserved a better film for their Fairy Tale than “Song of the South”. I just think it’s a shame we didn’t hold Disney accountable for that, and instead let them say that their Fairy Tale was deserving of nothing at all.

Uncle Remus introduces the song by saying that it is a past that he knows about, and that he thinks it was a lot better than today. He speaks as if he is intimately familiar with it. It’s also a fair assumption that Bre’r Rabbit is a version of Uncle Remus. It isn’t a jump to think of this as a Big Fish-style story. He tells stories about his life and re-contextualizes them into stories featuring the Bre’r characters. Sort of like the ending of Big Fish, he is surprised at the end when he sees all of the characters appear to him in the flesh because it’s a sweet Disney movie and he gets to hold hands with Bre’r Rabbit, his old self, at the end.

The difference here is 100% the framing device. it is not “just” a fairy tale world.

I don’t think this is a rediculous assumption at all. I also think this is the assumption that went into removing the song from DL’s loops.

EDIT: I also think it is silly to say that African Americans get “their fairy tale” - because I think there should be dozens, not just the one. I really hope that discussions like this are keeping Disney accountable.

 

[KaliSplash]

As I recall, this thread is supposed to be a discussion about the ride, Not the reasons for the changes. Just saying