Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[Brer Oswald]

Uncle Remus introduces the song by saying that it is a past that he knows about, and that he thinks it was a lot better than today. He speaks as if he is intimately familiar with it. It’s also a fair assumption that Bre’r Rabbit is a version of Uncle Remus. It isn’t a jump to think of this as a Big Fish-style story. He tells stories about his life and re-contextualizes them into stories featuring the Bre’r characters. Sort of like the ending of Big Fish, he is surprised at the end when he sees all of the characters appear to him in the flesh because it’s a sweet Disney movie and he gets to hold hands with Bre’r Rabbit, his old self, at the end.

The difference here is 100% the framing device. it is not “just” a fairy tale world.

I don’t think this is a rediculous assumption at all. I also think this is the assumption that went into removing the song from DL’s loops.

EDIT: I also think it is silly to say that African Americans get “their fairy tale” - because I think there should be dozens, not just the one. I really hope that discussions like this are keeping Disney accountable.

Agree to disagree with the first part of what you said. You have a certain view on the film, I have a different view. That’s fine.

As for the second point, I don’t think it’s silly at all to say that the Brer Rabbit stories are “African American Fairy Tales” as that is their origins. However, I do agree that there should be more that Disney adapts. It shouldn’t always be European or American tales. To my knowledge (feel free to correct me) the Brer stories are the only ones to originate from African culture. I know we have other films like Lion King that take visual inspiration from particular cultures, but not the story itself. Likewise, PatF was written by a white American, based on a European tale, but had some thematic changes when it became a film.

TLDR; Disney should make more adaptations of different cultural stories, less European Princess films.

 

[Disneyson]

Agree to disagree with the first part of what you said. You have a certain view on the film, I have a different view. That’s fine.

As for the second point, I don’t think it’s silly at all to say that the Brer Rabbit stories are “African American Fairy Tales” as that is their origins. However, I do agree that there should be more that Disney adapts.

...

TLDR; Disney should make more adaptations of different cultural stories, less European Princess films.

Agreed, 100%

 

[Brer Oswald]

As I recall, this thread is supposed to be a discussion about the ride, Not the reasons for the changes. Just saying

It's fine. We’re done.

 

[Brad Bishop]

My mother used to say things like “He was a [insert race or ethnicity] guy but he knew his job better than anyone else.” To her that was a compliment because that’s the kind of attitude she was raised with and exposed to growing up. She didn’t have a hateful bone in her body. The good thing is that she had an open mind and was willing to discuss, re-examine and reassess her beliefs and recognize the underlying prejudice. Too many people dig in instead of listening and communicating.

She sounded pretty smart for a woman.

Disney, like many other companies, are part of the Prog cult now and everything must be cleansed and nothing can be forgiven.

It's not going to end with Splash Mountain.

Song of the South: excepting for the animated parts, and the bits that lead up to them (the kid getting picked on and Uncle Remus starting his stories): it's a horribly dull movie. How people make such a fuss over such a horribly dull movie blows my mind.

...but... but... but... It had slaves!.. Well, former slaves!! If you think the emancipation proclamation went out and, later that day, all of the slaves walked off the plantations then you're kidding yourselves. Imagine being in the position and wondering, "Ok.. NOW what do I do???" Even if you're no longer a slave, you may stick around a bit, make a deal with your former master, and try to figure out, "what's next??"

Here's the part that really kills me through all of this: You have a black character, former slave, hasn't left the plantation, who is spilling out all manner of lessons and wisdom onto a young, impressionable (white) boy. To me, this is treasured genius. How much more "anti-racist" can you get. I remember those stories and made the connections between that boy getting into scrapes and Uncle Remus giving him long lasting words of advice that not only would help him then, but also well into the future.

Even the tar baby bit, which arguably would be the most objectionable simply because "tar baby" is genius. Brer Rabbit gets angry and doesn't know when to quit. The angrier he gets, the deeper into it he gets. Because doesn't know when to stop, eventually, the tar baby wins. That's a good life lesson.

If only Uncle Remus had been Uncle Joe, an actual white uncle of the kid and the former slaves never seen or mentioned, ONLY THEN could it pass today's idiotic Prog Purity tests. Only someone of the child's own race would have been good enough to teach the kid the life lessons that we all need. (which just goes to show you how idiotic the purity test is).

What's a "slavery"? - that's where we're headed.

 

[Chi84]

She sounded pretty smart for a woman.

Disney, like many other companies, are part of the Prog cult now and everything must be cleansed and nothing can be forgiven.

It's not going to end with Splash Mountain.

Song of the South: excepting for the animated parts, and the bits that lead up to them (the kid getting picked on and Uncle Remus starting his stories): it's a horribly dull movie. How people make such a fuss over such a horribly dull movie blows my mind.

...but... but... but... It had slaves!.. Well, former slaves!! If you think the emancipation proclamation went out and, later that day, all of the slaves walked off the plantations then you're kidding yourselves. Imagine being in the position and wondering, "Ok.. NOW what do I do???" Even if you're no longer a slave, you may stick around a bit, make a deal with your former master, and try to figure out, "what's next??"

Here's the part that really kills me through all of this: You have a black character, former slave, hasn't left the plantation, who is spilling out all manner of lessons and wisdom onto a young, impressionable (white) boy. To me, this is treasured genius. How much more "anti-racist" can you get. I remember those stories and made the connections between that boy getting into scrapes and Uncle Remus giving him long lasting words of advice that not only would help him then, but also well into the future.

Even the tar baby bit, which arguably would be the most objectionable simply because "tar baby" is genius. Brer Rabbit gets angry and doesn't know when to quit. The angrier he gets, the deeper into it he gets. Because doesn't know when to stop, eventually, the tar baby wins. That's a good life lesson.

If only Uncle Remus had been Uncle Joe, an actual white uncle of the kid and the former slaves never seen or mentioned, ONLY THEN could it pass today's idiotic Prog Purity tests. Only someone of the child's own race would have been good enough to teach the kid the life lessons that we all need. (which just goes to show you how idiotic the purity test is).

What's a "slavery"? - that's where we're headed.

I read past the first sentence because it was responding to my post, but I wouldn’t recommend that to anyone else.

 

[seabreezept813]

It’s a rather ridiculous assumption to make that “the better past” Remus refers to is a time of slavery. It’s also rather ridiculous to assume SotS exists in a realistic timeframe at all. The “past” is a cartoon wonderland with no other person other than Remus present.

The film is a fairy tale. The Brer Rabbit stories are fairy tales. Likewise, the seven tiny men, the wooden boy, the flying elephant, the deer prince of the forest, the girl in wonderland, and the flying boy who never grew up are all fairy tales coming from different cultures and places around the world.

African Americans deserved a better film for their Fairy Tale than “Song of the South”. I just think it’s a shame we didn’t hold Disney accountable for that, and instead let them say that their Fairy Tale was deserving of nothing at all.

My mom and I discussed this.. we always assumed that the past he was remembering was just his childhood. Like many people remembering the good old days of their youth. I think sometimes people read into and force issues when they aren’t necessarily there. Almost every older person talks about their younger days with nostalgia.

 

[Brer Oswald]

My mom and I discussed this.. we always assumed that the past he was remembering was just his childhood. Like many people remembering the good old days of their youth. I think sometimes people read into and force issues when they aren’t necessarily there. Almost every older person talks about their younger days with nostalgia.

Including Walt himself, who had a really rough childhood. But there was a part that was wonderful for him, and that’s what he was nostalgic for.

 

[Brer Panther]

For what it's worth, I still don't think that Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and Brer Bear are intended to be African-American stereotypes...

 

[LittleBuford]

For what it's worth, I still don't think that Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and Brer Bear are intended to be African-American stereotypes...

Most of the criticism levelled at Song of the South—and it goes back to the very year of its release—has centred on its romanticised portrayal of plantation life. To be sure, other aspects of the film have also been viewed as problematic, including the accents of the Brers (though I personally see no issue with AAVE) and the tar baby. But the larger issue transcends the animated sequences and pervades the film as a whole.

 

[Brer Panther]

I've noticed that Brer Rabbit and Brer Bear do sound a bit less "stereotypical" on the ride than they do in the film. Make of that what you will.

 

[LittleBuford]

I've noticed that Brer Rabbit and Brer Bear do sound a bit less "stereotypical" on the ride than they do in the film. Make of that what you will.

I believe they were voiced by a white man for the attraction.

 

[Brer Panther]

I believe they were voiced by a white man for the attraction.

Brer Rabbit, yes. Nick Stewart reprised his role as Brer Bear.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Uncle Remus introduces the song by saying that it is a past that he knows about, and that he thinks it was a lot better than today. He speaks as if he is intimately familiar with it. It’s also a fair assumption that Bre’r Rabbit is a version of Uncle Remus. It isn’t a jump to think of this as a Big Fish-style story. He tells stories about his life and re-contextualizes them into stories featuring the Bre’r characters. Sort of like the ending of Big Fish, he is surprised at the end when he sees all of the characters appear to him in the flesh because it’s a sweet Disney movie and he gets to hold hands with Bre’r Rabbit, his old self, at the end.

Again assuming that Brer Rabbit is meant to be Uncle Remus during his days as a slave, why is Brer Rabbit not played by James Baskett? It's not like he couldn't do a Johnny Lee like "young" voice as proven by him doing the additional Brer Rabbit laughing in the Laughin' Place sequence. Why does he only play the villain Brer Fox, which he should have the least connection to? Why does Brer Fox have a stereotypical Amos n' Andy fast talking African American voice if he's supposed to represent a white character?

Golden Age Disney was far from subtle, if the intention was that Brer Fox and Brer Bear were supposed to be real life people that Uncle Remus knew, I'd think there'd be a bigger hint like Uncle Remus doing an imitation of these unseen characters voices and he uses the same voices as Brer Bear and Brer Fox or at the end of the movie Uncle Remus meeting them again and they're played by the same actors as the cartoon characters (Wizard of Oz style).

Walt's whole reason for making SOTS was to make a cheaper, safe feature without making it a package film. The live actions parts are there for, A. To recreate the African American storyteller format of the book B. Doing the majority in live action was cheaper than an entire animated feature C. It allowed Walt to experiment with live action something he was itching to do.

I feel like if Walt was even thinking about the animated portions possible connections to slavery, I think he tried to stay far way from it. Having the dumb loser villain characters meant to be white slave catchers could've gotten Walt labeled as a progressive (and we all know what was only a few years away) and angered Southern movie theaters enough to not show the film.

I just don't see it being intentional in the Disney version? The original versions of the tale told by slaves? Probably. Joel Harris when he was wrote the tales down? Maybe. I really think Walt was trying to stay far away from making it a historical film (which is why there's no sign of a year and it only hints at being post Civil War) while still giving it a nostalgic feeling of the 19th century South.

Basically Walt wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I guess if "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah" has to go away, it's even less likely that the Disneyland Fun Sing-Along Video gets uploaded to Disney+, at least unedited like the 2005 DVD re-release.

Although it's sung in "The Mouseketeers at WDW" which is on Disney+...

 

[Brer Oswald]

I believe they were voiced by a white man for the attraction.

Just Brer Rabbit. Brer Fox And Brer Bear weren’t.

 

[Disneyson]

Again assuming that Brer Rabbit is meant to be Uncle Remus during his days as a slave, why is Brer Rabbit not played by James Baskett? It's not like he couldn't do a Johnny Lee like "young" voice as proven by him doing the additional Brer Rabbit laughing in the Laughin' Place sequence. Why does he only play the villain Brer Fox, which he should have the least connection to? Why does Brer Fox have a stereotypical Amos n' Andy fast talking African American voice if he's supposed to represent a white character?

Golden Age Disney was far from subtle, if the intention was that Brer Fox and Brer Bear were supposed to be real life people that Uncle Remus knew, I'd think there'd be a bigger hint like Uncle Remus doing an imitation of these unseen characters voices and he uses the same voices as Brer Bear and Brer Fox or at the end of the movie Uncle Remus meeting them again and they're played by the same actors as the cartoon characters (Wizard of Oz style).

Walt's whole reason for making SOTS was to make a cheaper, safe feature without making it a package film. The live actions parts are there for, A. To recreate the African American storyteller format of the book B. Doing the majority in live action was cheaper than an entire animated feature C. It allowed Walt to experiment with live action something he was itching to do.

I feel like if Walt was even thinking about the animated portions possible connections to slavery, I think he tried to stay far way from it. Having the dumb loser villain characters meant to be white slave catchers could've gotten Walt labeled as a progressive (and we all know what was only a few years away) and angered Southern movie theaters enough to not show the film.

I just don't see it being intentional in the Disney version? The original versions of the tale told by slaves? Probably. Joel Harris when he was wrote the tales down? Maybe. I really think Walt was trying to stay far away from making it a historical film (which is why there's no sign of a year and it only hints at being post Civil War) while still giving it a nostalgic feeling of the 19th century South.

Basically Walt wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

I think the voice choices are absolutely fair points to make, and I don’t disagree with your thoughts on Walt’s reasoning for making the film. I think the important part is the last part: that Walt’s intention might have been to distance himself from being historical, but also that he was trying to conjure “nostalgic 19th Century South”.

Anywho, I wasn’t really asking about Walt’s intention - which is a valid point in many discussions about the film - I was mostly just pointing out what I think is a valid modern reading of the film and how it could easily be seen as problematic. The problem for me is that, even if the story is removed thrice from it’s source, I am able to see the parallels between the story of Splash Mountain and the story of a runaway slave learning the lesson of returning “home” and not getting into trouble — literally, back to a dangerous home (a briar patch) that may be thorny, but will protect you.

The thing sort of is, modern riders of the attraction must make judgement calls on what they know. Many will not know SotS, aside from that it’s banned MAYBE. But you can piece a narrative together JUST from the ride, too. And, while it might not have been intentional in the Disney film (though I think we agree to disagree a little), evidence from at at LEAST the source material can back up this narrative.

EDIT: One more thing about the film (we really ought to focus on the attraction, I know, and it isn’t really the important part of the discussion,) but I suppose the main question is, in terms of the film, If Uncle Remus doesn’t speak from life experience, where/how does Uncle Remus create these stories? Is not the implication that as an older person speaking to a child, he is recounting lessons he finds important or else has learned throughout his life? I won’t re-post the full text here aside from a link to the script, but the placement of Uncle Remus “coming back” and Bre’r Rabbit “coming back” seems to be drawing a big, obvious parallel. I would look at the text from pages 3-4. To me, it's not very subtle at all, as if he is seeing himself in Bre’r Rabbit, but also passing the mantle onto this kid.

Walt Disney's Song of the South - Movie Script: Reel 5 Section C

Dedicated to providing information on Walt Disney's Academy Award-winning and controversial film Song of the South.

www.songofthesouth.net

 

[Brer Panther]

I wish Disney had just made Song of the South a fully animated Brer Rabbit movie. Would've saved themselves a lot of trouble.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I think the voice choices are absolutely fair points to make, and I don’t disagree with your thoughts on Walt’s reasoning for making the film. I think the important part is the last part: that Walt’s intention might have been to distance himself from being historical, but also that he was trying to conjure “nostalgic 19th Century South”.

Anywho, I wasn’t really asking about Walt’s intention - which is a valid point in many discussions about the film - I was mostly just pointing out what I think is a valid modern reading of the film and how it could easily be seen as problematic. The problem for me is that, even if the story is removed thrice from it’s source, I am able to see the parallels between the story of Splash Mountain and the story of a runaway slave learning the lesson of returning “home” and not getting into trouble — literally, back to a dangerous home (a briar patch) that may be thorny, but will protect you.

The thing sort of is, modern riders of the attraction must make judgement calls on what they know. Many will not know SotS, aside from that it’s banned MAYBE. But you can piece a narrative together JUST from the ride, too. And, while it might not have been intentional in the Disney film (though I think we agree to disagree a little), evidence from at at LEAST the source material can back up this narrative.

EDIT: One more thing about the film (we really ought to focus on the attraction, I know, and it isn’t really the important part of the discussion,) but I suppose the main question is, in terms of the film, If Uncle Remus doesn’t speak from life experience, where/how does Uncle Remus create these stories? Is not the implication that as an older person speaking to a child, he is recounting lessons he finds important or else has learned throughout his life? I won’t re-post the full text here aside from a link to the script, but the placement of Uncle Remus “coming back” and Bre’r Rabbit “coming back” seems to be drawing a big, obvious parallel. I would look at the text from pages 3-4. To me, it's not very subtle at all, as if he is seeing himself in Bre’r Rabbit, but also passing the mantle onto this kid.

Walt Disney's Song of the South - Movie Script: Reel 5 Section C

Dedicated to providing information on Walt Disney's Academy Award-winning and controversial film Song of the South.

www.songofthesouth.net

I always thought he was explaining life lessons in a form a child would understand, not necessarily how he experienced them. (It also helps that Remus seems to be the only adults with both brains and the ability to relate to children)

 

[dig311dug]

are they planning on throwing out brer's statue too?

 

[Brer Oswald]

are they planning on throwing out brer's statue too?

View attachment 494454

They’ll probably replace it with that “Classic” character Olaf.

(Hopefully they replace it with Oswald or Peter Pan).