Spirited Thoughts, News, Observations etc.

OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Where to start? With a conclusion? Or should I just work on down?

Should I start with the good ... things like seeing friends, having great weather, appreciating some things that the fan community tends to ignore and seeing EPCOT in its best colors?

Or ... do I focus on everything else? Because all going to WDW did for me this weekend was exceed my already amazingly low expectations for the state of WDW infrastructure and show quality (hey, they did exceed expectations, right?) and get me more excited for my future visits to DLP, possibly BGW, DL ... and, hopefully in the not too distant future, the Asian resorts again too.

Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

You would find show quality that already had issues showing more issues than the typical fanboi in therapy. Well, that's if you can actually get to the MK because the crumbling monorail system has to be shut down all day from 11:30 a.m to 6 p.m. to do track work in the midst of one of the busiest times of the year ... imagine paying $500-700 a night for a room at the GF or Poly with monorail convenience touted (wonder what guest recovery they are doing there!) ... but let's assume you find your way there.

Let's start with the stuff the fan community is all lathered up for, namely the Storybook Circus mini-land expansion of Fantasyland. What did I think of it?

Not very much at all.

As usual, the hype was much greater than the product, which can't be viewed in a vacuum in a park that is crumbling and has no wow factor at all anymore.

In the day, Dumbo's primary colors and the red painted construction fences all around come off as garish ... befitting a circus, no doubt ... but Old Man Disney was no more a fan of circuses than he was of amusement parks and piers and the shady elements that all attracted. So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last. And it spins high enough to peek over construction walls and we all know how much that has become en vogue in O-Town of late.

It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't. But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left. I will never get what Phil and TDO have against trees, but they certainly do.

Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!) What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!? ... Of course, the reason is they have colored the water blue because otherwise it would be a very icky color and folks would constantly be complaining that something isn't right.

Are the details nice? Sure. But they are very basic. I was much more excited by leaf patterns in the walkways around Old Man Island at Dixie Landings 20 years ago than I am by various hoof prints and 'peanuts' embedded in this area.

So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

If this is what Disney believes will raise the bar in O-Town ... well, no ... they don't. They understand what they have built and why. This is about capacity ... and NEXT GEN ... and keeping folks from being bored out of their minds by offering something 'new'.

It's in 'soft opening' now, but let's be blunt: they had to get this open and open now. They have so little capacity in this park due to 15 years of taking away and not adding. MK just isn't a very pleasant place right now at all with crowds and walls and lots of attractions that have seen far better days.

Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

Now, what else was 'new' (to me) at MK? Spin the Fanboi? Pin the Tail on Meg? Dole Whip tees (I mean, REALLY?!?!) ... or how about the latest way to hook OCD fanbois and why it is so important to NEXT GEN.

I'll see you all a little later ... like in the next post!
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
maybe we need to stop booking those overpriced vacations to "monorail" resorts that DONT have monorail service, spending countless dollars on shirts from a time when the parks WERE magical, & continue writing folks, continue to fill out commment cards/complaints when visiting the parks, if your friends or family went & noticed the broken effects on splash, the filty condition of a park or a parade float being towed along half the route let them also contact disney, don't just contact wdw where tdo brushes it under the rug, post comments on the wdw facebook page, write to iger in burbank, reach over meg's head.....
The easiest way for a customer to facilitate change in a company is to spend their money elsewhere. If you feel that you are not getting your money's worth then take it elsewhere. If enough people feel as you do and follow suit the company will be forced to change or die.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Indeed, but in that first category there are two distinct factions: Those who highlight issues and express concern, and those who highlight issues and demean or belittle anyone who doesn't notice or isn't equally upset. I put you, Lee and a few others in the first faction and have the utmost respect for your posts, sources and opinions. Sadly, '74 seems to dominate the second faction and delivers vitriol and hate that detracts from any value there might be in his observations and opinions.

To quote Marshall McLuhan, the medium is the message. '74 loses credibility because no-one can comfortably wade through the detritus to get to the substance.

Nah, Monty ... what it really comes down to is I challenge people and no one likes that (I can do likewise on politics, religion and the best burger!)

There is no hate in my posts. There are provocative topics and posts, but hate?! Really? Sorry, using the word 'fanboi' does not make someone a hater.

I went back and looked at my first few posts on this thread and they are largely talking about what I experienced and my opinions on them.

I think it likely bothers many fans who are so excited about the small scale Fantasyland 'expansion' that I think it isn't very impressive at all. And that the SotMK game is worse.

But really how does one justify the fact that almost every attraction in the park has serious SQS issues? For what WDW charges shouldn't the park be near pristine? It was 20 years ago. Why not now? Why is it so easy for so many to accept so little?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
One thing I'd like to discuss about 74's report is his statement that you can see back stage all the way to the road, while you are standing in the queue for Dumbo. Has anyone else experienced this? That seems like even worse show then the fact that a giant green show building is visible from multiple points of CircusLand.

Actually, I said from the Barnstormer queue as it is on an incline that you walk up to get to the load platform.

I have no idea why they cleared trees on the other side of the tracks, but they did ...

And the green show building is just a huge eyesore. You can't miss it. I've never seen something like that in a MK-style park.
 

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
I bowed out of the forums months ago because I couldn't handle the barrage of extreme negativity and positivity. For every legitimate complaint (Splash Mountain's disrepair), there were a thousand silly ones ("I don't like the color of the Confectionary!").

But it's even worse to read people who blindly defend every bad decision made at WDW over the last five years. Florida's resort is far below Disney's own standards everywhere else. I hadn't been to DL in years, but after I visited it last December, I returned to my hotel room seriously depressed about the state of WDW. Imagine a place where maintenance simply happens--quickly--and where almost every special effect works. DL is that place. Sure, the FLE looks great, but how long will it take to be broken like every other attraction at the Magic Kingdom?

74's spirited observations are 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees clearly hasn't taken any classes in business.

Well said, and I think the argument that many make about "Disney should be concerned about profits" and "Disney is a business" really doesn't make sense. For one, why are the business principles that are followed in other Disney resorts not followed in Florida? And beyond that, any business that thinks letting its largest physical asset (the 27,000-ish acres of WDW) stagnate and deteriorate is a "good business decision" is seriously misguided by any measure.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
Actually, I said from the Barnstormer queue as it is on an incline that you walk up to get to the load platform.

I have no idea why they cleared trees on the other side of the tracks, but they did ...

And the green show building is just a huge eyesore. You can't miss it. I've never seen something like that in a MK-style park.

My mistake. Either way, it is disappointing to hear about.
 

Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
Ah, Martin, there is a difference between us, buddy.

You just state something and move on (probably smart!), I am looking to provoke a reaction, to get people talking and thinking and, just maybe, seeing things differently.

You can say TDO is clueless and its current business model is destroying the integrity of the resort and move on and people will either agree or disagree, but they won't talk much.

People need to be shaken out of their stupor (in the real world so much more than here and on matter of far more import than theme parks). That doesn't happen by making a statement and moving on.

This always comes up when Lee (secretly an Imagineer according to old buddy Merfie!) and I get together. People don't get excited until you push their buttons and make them look inward.

Am I really enjoying the MK because it's never been better :hurl::hammer::rolleyes: or because I am addicted to the place and couldn't imagine taking a vacation anywhere else? Am I not noticing the fact Small World looks like it's ready to be condemned because nothing is really wrong that has never been before or is it because I am busy singing and in a pixie dusted haze? Am I OK with Disney adding DVC at the GF because it will improve the resort so much so that I don't notice that half the lights are off on the building and the monorail doesn't run daily (all for rates that start at $460 for the cheapest room in the cheapest season)?

I think much of the anger that gets provoked in threads like this is because people DO notice what is going on and they wonder what it says about them that they continue to visit and defend it.

For what it's worth, I certainly don't hate you and you don't make me angry. :shrug:

You choose to post in a provocative manner, envisioning yourself no doubt as a "champion for change". But my understanding has always been that on the Internet, "provocative poster" = "Troll". I actually think you believe yourself better than the rest, but in the end only a select few sycophants and dare I say it "'74 fanbois" actually listen. Waking them up doesn't do much good. Convincing me and others like me requires less bluster and buffoonery and more finesse.

It's a pity you can't see fault in yourself as readily as you see it at WDW and in your fellow posters.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I doubt Spirit had to spend much money at all. He tends to get special treatment when he visits the Stateside parks.

No, I didn't spend hardly anything. ... Beyond my admission with my already paid for AP. ... I didn't buy any merchandise. I had three Disney meals and was treated to all by friends/cast/family. Hell, I didn't even pay for my citrus swirl (tasty, but tiny portion).

Hell, I didn't even pay for my room as I used SPG points.


So....Spirit....did you have any fun during this visit? :lol:

Lots of fun. Weather was great. Love spending time in EPCOT when it is in bloom. Discovered that I really enjoy TPFKaTD-MGMS far more than MK (now my least favorite O-Town park) and saw some great new or 'new to me' exhibits at Disney Animation and the AFI Showcase. Still, love the new Star Tours and ToT (minus screaming children and bad parents). Had great meals, including Kouzina and Biergarten. Loved relaxing by my pool that had real high quality bathsheets ... you know unlike Disney that gives you All Star towels at the deluxe pools and thinks that's just MAGICal. Even had a smidge of fun at MK, but that was largely due to the Spirits I was with and not anything park-wise.

But yeah, it was a nice, much-needed short trip!



If you knew anything about tone, commentary, writing in general, you would understand that Spirit is a master at it. Though people such as yourself ignore all of the actual substance of the post and just focus on the writing style. He, probably more than anyone else, can spark discussion and excitment on this board. Look past what you seem to quickly consider childish attacks and take a minute to think about what was actually written.

And I'm pretty sure Flynnibus can hold his own. No one needs WDWAvenger to come to the rescue around here.

I think the larger issue is it's easier to attack the messenger and say it's just the way the message is delivered rather that be an adult and focus on the substance of the discussion.
 

Pitchforkman

New Member
I bowed out of the forums months ago because I couldn't handle the barrage of extreme negativity and positivity. For every legitimate complaint (Splash Mountain's disrepair), there were a thousand silly ones ("I don't like the color of the Confectionary!").

But it's even worse to read people who blindly defend every bad decision made at WDW over the last five years. Florida's resort is far below Disney's own standards everywhere else. I hadn't been to DL in years, but after I visited it last December, I returned to my hotel room seriously depressed about the state of WDW. Imagine a place where maintenance simply happens--quickly--and where almost every special effect works. DL is that place. Sure, the FLE looks great, but how long will it take to be broken like every other attraction at the Magic Kingdom?

74's spirited observations are 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees clearly hasn't taken any classes in business.

That last part is so wrong it is funny. I would actually say the opposite. If anyone agrees with his OPINIONS which are not 100% correct they have clearly never taken any classes in business. See i can make hyperbole statements too.
 

Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
Taking me longer to post than normal, computer died so I'm posting from my phone. My apologies, I didn't intend to imply that you hate posters here, more that you hate Disney management. As I said, I think for more people than you may realise, whatever information you're trying to convey gets lost in the style you believe to be provocative.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's probably a whole separate discussion but I question your "business trajectories" comment.

WDW went through a period of remarkable growth that came about as a result of a focus on quality and guest satisfaction. People enjoyed the resort and they came back. They brought their families and friends along. They told everyone they met what a great experience they had.

If you abandon that approach and focus instead on profits, this is short-sighted thinking at best... and disastrous thinking at worst.

This is not an inevitable business evolution.

It is total and utter BS to say it's simply business. It's only business if you believe in the type of profits at all costs, playing fast and loose with numbers. Ponzi scheme type of capitalism that almost brought this country down (and still will if given the chance).

There's some false idea that you have to constantly cut 'costs' (that means quality and CM benefits and guest perks etc) to make more money every quarter. Guess what? If you make $20 million in profit this quarter, you aren't doing bad if you make $20 million next (or God forbid only $14 million).

The focus on short term profits is a sure fire way to brand degradation or worse. And that has been how WDW Co has been run dating back to the late 90s now.

It's almost a desperate way or running a business ... constantly wondering what smoke and mirrors will improve the next quarter's numbers.

It isn't how NBC/Comcast is running its theme park division right now.

But it's OK ... Storybook Circus is on the same level as ANYTHING UNI is working on now!:rolleyes:
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
I think the larger issue is it's easier to attack the messenger and say it's just the way the message is delivered rather that be an adult and focus on the substance of the discussion.
If you are truly interested in provoking change and stimulating discourse and you see that your style is obfuscating your intent, wouldn't you be better suited to change your style?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here's the sequence of events as I see them last night:

Spirit posts trip report

Steam whistle goes off at Celebration Place

Move to Defcon Two

Forces mobilized

Flurry of posts attacking the messenger with little regard to the content

At least, that's the way I see it...

I gots one thing to say to that ... :ROFLOL::sohappy::ROFLOL:
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
Sorry but you are completely wrong. But hey believe what you want, i know the truth.

It is funny how you can honestly try to tell a person who ACTUALLY participated in the experience they are wrong. Sorry while i laugh.

Nothing you said is correct.

Really? I go to the parks all the time dude. They are loud and take away from the ambiance of the area. I was referring to a guest walking by that area and how it takes away from the atmosphere.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
That last part is so wrong it is funny. I would actually say the opposite. If anyone agrees with his OPINIONS which are not 100% correct they have clearly never taken any classes in business. See i can make hyperbole statements too.

nobody listens to you.

It's probably because you "laugh at us" so much.

:lookaroun
 

Pitchforkman

New Member
If you are truly interested in provoking change and stimulating discourse and you see that your style is obfuscating your intent, wouldn't you be better suited to change your style?

That would make too much sense and would actually mean that he would have to act like a civilized adult
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
wait...does this thread move mean that Spirit wrote his first Trip Report on WDWmagic??? :ROFLOL:

I didn't consider this a trip report ... it was an observations thread, someone likely whined and got it moved ... which is weird because quite often threads about people's observations stay in News and Rumors, but whatever ... judging by the responses, people can find it.

I don't do traditional trip reports because no one really needs to know when I went to the Quail Tile restrooms ... or that no one but myself was on a bus yesterday from Studios to DAK Lodge ... or that I found and turned in a seven-day ticket that had just been bought that day to City Hall and barely got a thanks and smirk from the Guest Relations hostess.

Wanna talk about taco salads that still come with no salad?:hammer:
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
All right, let's analyze this shall we?

The Good
*Disneyland is doing very well and the DCA expansion will be outstanding.
*Bringing in Lasseter and Pixar.
*Resurrected 2D Animation.

The Bad
*His complete lack of enthusiasm, Businessman Persona and scripted speech and press releases that sound like they were written by a robot.
*Putting people in power who should not be, Jay Rasulo, Tom Staggs, Meg Crofton.
*Ridiculous and repulsive marketing initiatives. (Disney Parks: Where Dreams Come True, Year of a Million Dreams,Changing Rapunzel to "Tangled". Let's remove all instances of "Walt" and remove any instance of an 's and just use the term "Disney" in all cases)
*the NextGen BS
and of course his complete lack of supervision or interest in the operating of WDW.

I don't believe that Iger resurrected 2D animation. I believe John Lasseter tried to, and ultimately it wasn't successful.

But after talking to some friends and observing, I feel confident in saying that if the OLC ran WDW, at least 75% of all attractions across four parks would have to be closed immediately to simply meet stipulations for SQS that TWDC itself mandates.

You think about that when you are in a neglected park that is falling apart and you're trying to convince yourself that your vacation dollars were well spent, so everything is really fine ... well, except that it isn't.

I couldn't agree more, and even without ever visiting Tokyo I've explained to people that the standards there are just that much higher.


74 has the best posts ever. Without a doubt the most entertaining posts out of any of the forum members on here. Keep em coming!

The content is excellent, more on that later in this response.

Sad really. I think the thread is more news than trip report.

I do too, it's getting to the point where WDW1974 should probably have his own thread for discussion like this a la Mr. Soto.

You just state something and move on (probably smart!), I am looking to provoke a reaction, to get people talking and thinking and, just maybe, seeing things differently.

Please allow me to offer a piece of criticism. Your posting style detracts from this goal. The self references, even if done ironically results in the focus of many of your posts shifting from the actaul content to your ego. I don't think that's the intent, but it's presumably why many people on here find your posts condescending and why you're telling people to re-read what you wrote. The valuable content is lost on some people.

You're getting reactions from some people for the wrong reasons. They're reacting to you, not to your content.

You can say TDO is clueless and its current business model is destroying the integrity of the resort and move on and people will either agree or disagree, but they won't talk much.

People need to be shaken out of their stupor (in the real world so much more than here and on matter of far more import than theme parks). That doesn't happen by making a statement and moving on.
Yes, but again the references to things being MAGICal or referring to yourself as Spirit takes away from the legit content. Your point about the Oriental Land Company that I quoted above is an example of an effective way to get your point across.

74's spirited observations are 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees clearly hasn't taken any classes in business.

I agree... quality is a hell of a business plan.

Nah, Monty ... what it really comes down to is I challenge people and no one likes that (I can do likewise on politics, religion and the best burger!)
And you're absolutely right in that people hate to be challenged. There's a quote in the Kevin Smith Dogma where Chris Rock says it's better to have an idea than a belief. Changing an idea is easy, changing a belief is trickier. I love talking about religion and politics with people (Although admittedly, my knowledge base isn't as strong as I would like). However, it's difficult to have a rational conversation with people about something they believe in.

There are people on here that believe Disney is the end all and be all for their entertainment dollar. They refuse to visit Universal Studios because they believe it will undoubtedly be an inferior product.

There is no hate in my posts. There are provocative topics and posts, but hate?! Really? Sorry, using the word 'fanboi' does not make someone a hater.

I went back and looked at my first few posts on this thread and they are largely talking about what I experienced and my opinions on them.

I think it likely bothers many fans who are so excited about the small scale Fantasyland 'expansion' that I think it isn't very impressive at all. And that the SotMK game is worse.

But really how does one justify the fact that almost every attraction in the park has serious SQS issues? For what WDW charges shouldn't the park be near pristine? It was 20 years ago. Why not now? Why is it so easy for so many to accept so little?
I hope I explained what I believe the source of these "hate" comments are coming from.
 

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