Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts Tres

[doctornick]

The only place I'll stick my feet down about removal is Sci Fi...

I loved it as a kid, my kid loves it, and it's something that needs to stay.

Agreed a fantastic concept for a restaurant and pretty unique. Would definitely be a loss.

I'm someone who rails about the layout of DHS all the time. And the alley way with Sci Fi is one of the problems. But, ironically, if they wanted to keep Sci Fi (and ABC commissary or something in that spot), it would be easy to leave that walkway alone while building on stuff in Echo Lake/SOA/expanded Pixar Place. Commissary Lane can be branded as part of the Hollywood Blvd land if need be.

 

[doctornick]

If all of this plus Avatar get built maybe Osborne Lights would move to EPCOT. It is wildly popular around Christmas time and was used to draw guests to an otherwise less popular park. The lights couldn't be setup in their current form, but maybe somewhere in WS or even better use the abandoned Wonders of Life pavilion. It wouldn't be hard to build some fake building fronts inside the pavilion to string the lights up on.

If DHS gets a massive redo, then having the Osborne Lights at that park isn't as critical (right now, it is a great seasonal draw that breaths some life into the park). But it would be very sad to lose the Osborne Lights entirely at WDW. I think it would be idea to keep them in DHS somewhere, but I wouldn't mind seeing them at DTD or at Epcot if need be, as long as they stick around.

 

[doctornick]

AK Lion King is being moved. Rare perhaps but not impossible.

Carousel of Progress got moved across the country.

Edit: I'd just mention that it's much easier to move a theater show or a flat ride to a different location than it is to move a ride with tracks and sets. I could easily see, say, Laugh Floor moved to DHS without too much problem -- you just need to put the screen tech and the decor in another theater. If TDO wanted to spend the effort to do so.

 

[doctornick]

I think I've explained the difference between artistry and acquisition plenty of times here. If Walt had just bought known and fully developed properties, there never would have been a Jiminy Cricket or a Dopey or a Tramp. Creating the Disney version is where Disney magic comes from. Period.

You brought up Oz as a Disney property and there is no difference between Oz the Great and Powerful and The Muppets in terms of "being Disney". Both are movies made by Disney based on IP developed elsewhere.

 

[HenryMystic]

Over the last 6-to-8 years, attendance at Epcot has been flat.

That's not a zing, that's a problem.

And a problem that will persist for the foreseeable future. If DHS and DAK plans go through, that'll leave Epcot 'as is' for quite a while.

In regards to your other posts about Universal v. Disney. I'll admit that I was in a dark place when the attendance figures came out. Pheneix says they were 'fantasy' and I tend to agree as they didn't pass the smell test. I agree with your basic premise that castle parks are untouchable and by extension, the other 3, but I also agree with the point that the damage is done. Since 2010, so many people who had never gone to Universal before, went for the first time. They've likely been back and will continue to go back between now and 2018. They've now been exposed to Universal and probably enjoy it. They now know that something else is out there. Will these people really skip Universal ever again? People aren't going to stop going to Universal, especially since Comcast has no intentions of slowing down. I think in 2018, folks are more likely to skip Epcot than a day at IoA/USF.

Long story short, the idea of a typical Orlando vacation has shifted, and I don't see how that can ever revert back to the way it was. Many didn't know what they were missing at UOR, now they do (and it will only get better.) If I were TDO, I wouldn't build anymore hotel rooms.

ETA: I always enjoy your posts and I agree with you 99% of the time...and I'm pretty sure we kinda agree about this too. Those TEA numbers were depressing though.

 

[SirOinksALot]

Over the last 6-to-8 years, attendance at Epcot has been flat.

That's not a zing, that's a problem.

8 years?
Epcot: 9.4 to 11.0 million
USF: 6.7 million to 6.2 million... ouch.
IOA: 6.4 to 8.0... so the same number of people Epcot added.

Problem. lol.

I'll leave you alone on this nice Saturday morning... I realize that you think I can't post here without insulting others, but it would be much easier if the things you post weren't wrong. Like your DVC analysis. Or any number of other things really.

But hey, you definitely make up for quality with quantity.

The problem is that Disney can keep pace with market growth over the long-term by doing nothing. But that's not a problem for them, it's a problem for us. Go to Uni instead? Alright, someone just took your place.

 

[GoofGoof]

Didn't Iger announce not long ago that the company would be cutting back on capital expense? To me it sounds like they are ramping up!

You are correct in that Disney has more land but it is highly underutilized and mis-managed land. Look at the "POW" and "UMPH" DLR and UNI have both been able to deliver without 20,000+ acres.

But they have. Look at capital spend through half of this year vs last year. The next 6 months will be virtually the same. By the time these projects get into full swing work in China will be winding down. This is TWDC we are talking about. These capital projects will be spread out between 2014 or 2015 and 2018. Even if announced this summer if history repeats itself they may not break ground much before the end of 2014.

 

[Goofyernmost]

True...I almost said rarely because I couldn't think of one instance, but yes, you are right. And frankly, I think it's better there. Fits with the theme, and I'm glad they didn't kill the show, as it's amazing!

Isn't that the third time it has been moved? Wasn't it once at MK in the theater the now houses Philharmagic? It is something that lends itself to moving easily. Just a few sets and tell the actors where to show up, and voila, new location.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You brought up Oz as a Disney property and there is no difference between Oz the Great and Powerful and The Muppets in terms of "being Disney". Both are movies made by Disney based on IP developed elsewhere.

His arguments are repeatedly full of holes and inconsistencies. It's an odd, fluctuating personal bias and nothing more.

 

[SirOinksALot]

Didn't Iger announce not long ago that the company would be cutting back on capital expense? To me it sounds like they are ramping up!

You are correct in that Disney has more land but it is highly underutilized and mis-managed land. Look at the "POW" and "UMPH" DLR and UNI have both been able to deliver without 20,000+ acres.

Cutting back at his level though means across all Parks & Resorts. People don't want to hear it, but building a cruise ship means that WDW doesn't get a new attraction. Once you add everything up - Shanghai, two new boats, CarsLand, NFL... even cutting back from that number is still a really high number and WDW is overdue for its piece of the pie.

 

[GoofGoof]

And a problem that will persist for the foreseeable future. If DHS and DAK plans go through, that'll leave Epcot 'as is' for quite a while.

In regards to your other posts about Universal v. Disney. I'll admit that I was in a dark place when the attendance figures came out. Pheneix says they were 'fantasy' and I tend to agree as they didn't pass the smell test. I agree with your basic premise that castle parks are untouchable and by extension, the other 3, but I also agree with the point that the damage is done. Since 2010, so many people who had never gone to Universal before, went for the first time. They've likely been back and will continue to go back between now and 2018. They've now been exposed to Universal and probably enjoy it. They now know that something else is out there. Will these people really skip Universal ever again? People aren't going to stop going to Universal, especially since Comcast has no intentions of slowing down. I think in 2018, folks are more likely to skip Epcot than a day at IoA/USF.

Long story short, the idea of a typical Orlando vacation has shifted, and I don't see how that can ever revert back to the way it was. Many didn't know what they were missing at UOR, now they do (and it will only get better.) If I were TDO, I wouldn't build anymore hotel rooms.

ETA: I always enjoy your posts and I agree with you 99% of the time...and I'm pretty sure we kinda agree about this too. Those TEA numbers were depressing though.

I think there is a distinction between you, me & @ParentsOf4 and the bulk of guests visiting WDW. For the regular visitors and the local crowd I think you are right. No turning back. For the average tourist WDW is still king. Disney is pretty savvy with marketing and selling packages with their magic bus and dining plan.

 

[CDavid]

8 years?
Epcot: 9.4 to 11.0 million
USF: 6.7 million to 6.2 million... ouch.
IOA: 6.4 to 8.0... so the same number of people Epcot added.

A quick glance reveals that Epcot was indeed virtually flat for the last five years. The attendance bump came before 2008. Universal was relatively unchanged as well over the same five-year span, with big gains each of the last three years at IOA.

 

[ParentsOf4]

8 years?
Epcot: 9.4 to 11.0 million
USF: 6.7 million to 6.2 million... ouch.
IOA: 6.4 to 8.0... so the same number of people Epcot added.

2007
Epcot: 10.930M
USF: 6.200M
IOA: 5.430M

2012
Epcot: 11.063M
USF: 6.195M
IOA: 7.981M

Growth
Epcot: 1.2%
USF: -0.1%
IOA: 47.0%

WWOHP Phase 2 is opening next year. We know what Comcast is doing to fix USF.

What's Disney doing to fix Epcot?

 

[wm49rs]

Over the last 6-to-8 years, attendance at Epcot has been flat.

That's not a zing, that's a problem.

Booze and food booths can carry a place only so far....

 

[doctornick]

What's Disney doing to fix Epcot?

Why does a park that draws in 11M people annually need to be "fixed"?

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be making substantial additions to the park (they should) and need to keep it fresh and interesting to retain customers, but your premise seems to be that something is wrong with Epcot and that requires some massive overhaul to repair.

 

[Mister Boo]

Why does a park that draws in 11M people annually need to be "fixed"?

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be making substantial additions to the park (they should) and need to keep it fresh and interesting to retain customers, but your premise seems to be that something is wrong with Epcot and that requires some massive overhaul to repair.

You may be correct that something isn't necessarily wrong financially but the quality of the product IS wrong and needs to be fixed. Future world is 70% a joke.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I just typed up a long response and it got lost. Dropping in from the road, and doing things like updating a website from an iPhone aren't easy.

So, Jim Hill made an appearance on the WDW Kingdomcast Facebook page where he also confirmed Niles' report.

He did specify that the attraction would be a Speeder Bike attraction and t would replace Indy. I heard the same info from a trusted source last month and believe this is the leader in the clubhouse right now.

He also made mention of a Mos Eisley Cantina also coming to the current Echo Lake area. He didn't seem to think the Mupets area was in jeopardy, but the is Osborne lights will likely have their final run this year. It is also expected that Star Wars would open before Cars Land.

It's a shame about the Osborne lights. I had suggested back in April that this be moved to a new area behind RNRC. They could put up facades for use during 2.5 mints of the year. I'm also going to pull an @jt04 and take full responsibility for Disney deciding to build both Star Wars as Cars Land.

I have been tracking the Star Wars rumor here:
http://www.wdwthemeparks.com/rumors/2013/03/25/more-star-wars-and-lucas-content

 

[ParentsOf4]

Why does a park that draws in 11M people annually need to be "fixed"?

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be making substantial additions to the park (they should) and need to keep it fresh and interesting to retain customers, but your premise seems to be that something is wrong with Epcot and that requires some massive overhaul to repair.

- Unused capacity
- Flat attendance

Epcot still holds it own, largely because it's on the Monorail. But when MK's attendance is 17.5M and Epcot's is 11M, that's the type of a disparity that TWDC fixed at DCA and Comcast is trying to fix at USF.

Think of it differently. If we believe TEA's numbers are approximately correct, why would DAK and DHS need to be fixed at about 10M while Epcot wouldn't need to be fixed at 11M?

Tokyo DisneySea and DCA show that it's possible to more evenly distribute attendance.

 

[Mister Boo]

Is it really a Cars land? I'm getting the impression from some of our insiders that describing it instead as a Cars ride would be more accurate.

 

[GoofGoof]

Is it really a Cars land? I'm getting the impression from some of our insiders that describing it instead as a Cars ride would be more accurate.

Sounds more like Carsland without the ride to me