Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts Tres

[bubbles1812]

He doesn't have a mouse job and if he's saying $400-$500M he's either got crap sources on this one or he's lying to further some agenda.

Why would he necessarily have crap sources? You yourself said that that number you threw out was for Avatar in addition to infrastructure/lighting and possible night time show (really skeptical that one is going to make it to reality). It isn't all Avatar. If you knock off the cost of those last two things, the Avatar budget could very well be in that 400-500 million ballpark. And past developments on the project would suggest that is the range Disney wants the project to cost...And they tend to want the lower side of that 400-500 million range just fyi. Not to mention they have a well known history of cutting the budget often several times during development..which the project is still very much in. Not exactly like steel beams are rising at the moment.

 

[Tim_4]

Why would he necessarily have crap sources? You yourself said that that number you threw out was for Avatar in addition to infrastructure/lighting and possible night time show (really skeptical that one is going to make it to reality). It isn't all Avatar. If you knock off the cost of those last two things, the Avatar budget could very well be in that 400-500 million ballpark. And past developments on the project would suggest that is the range Disney wants the project to cost...And they tend to want the lower side of that 400-500 million range just fyi. Not to mention they have a well known history of cutting the budget often several times during development..which the project is still very much in. Not exactly like steel beams are rising at the moment.

They're doing significant animation work with the Autodesk software used in the films behind the scenes. Digital steel beams, if you will.

 

[bubbles1812]

They're doing significant animation work with the Autodesk software used in the films behind the scenes. Digital steel beams, if you will.

But not actual steel beams... It's still development. Animation is just that, animation. Your statement just shows how far the project has to go, which leaves a whole lot of room for Disney to decide they want this project to be less expensive, which has notably been their MO on nearly every project in recent years. Putting a "digital steel beam" into a computer program isn't the equivalent of putting an actual steel beam in the ground... Also, you failed to address the majority of post.

 

[MattM]

Well, it only took 35 pages of one of my threads for someone to attack, so things are improving by degrees around here.

What do you know about Avatar @Tim_4 and why should we believe you? When last I heard that was the budget for Pandora and was what Disney widely publicized. Now what should we believe? That one of the cheapest companies has upped the budget to $1.2 billion and is building multiple E-Ticket attractions?

Please, tell me what you know and I'll try and confirm it ...unless you have crap sources or are lying to further some agenda.

Two quick things:

1. There is a thread that @Tim_4 started with fantastic info on Avatar and DAK in general, and has already been confirmed by multiple other "insiders" who are well respected around here.
2. When one uses the same attack on someone that you claim they used on you, it kinda neutralizes ones right to complain. If you think its wrong, be the bigger person and don't do the exact same thing.

Let's not start this again.

 

[DocMcHulk]

I shouldn't post before bed. I meant Undiscovered Country NOT Final FRontier, but confused them. FF was BAD.

good thing you corrected that. i was starting to question your judgement

 

[Tim_4]

But not actual steel beams... It's still development. Animation is just that, animation. Your statement just shows how far the project has to go, which leaves a whole lot of room for Disney to decide they want this project to be less expensive, which has notably been their MO on nearly every project in recent years. Putting a "digital steel beam" into a computer program isn't the equivalent of putting an actual steel beam in the ground... Also, you failed to address the majority of post.

I have an entire thread addressing the remainder of that post as it relates to Avatar. I'm fine with you and others criticising cuts that have been made but you step into "unreasonable" territory when you pre-criticize cuts you think they MIGHT make in the future.

 

[baymenxpac]

I have an entire thread addressing the remainder of that post as it relates to Avatar. I'm fine with you and others criticising cuts that have been made but you step into "unreasonable" territory when you pre-criticize cuts you think they MIGHT make in the future.

it boils down to trust, tim. with the way disney has handled almost all of their recent projects at WDW, they've eroded away our internal assurances that they'll sacrifice the bottom line for a groundbreaking experience.

obviously, none of us are going to know until we see a finished product, but it's hard to blame those who have just been scorned too many times.

 

[Tim_4]

it boils down to trust, tim. with the way disney has handled almost all of their recent projects at WDW, they've eroded away our internal assurances that they'll sacrifice the bottom line for a groundbreaking experience.

obviously, none of us are going to know until we see a finished product, but it's hard to blame those who have just been scorned too many times.

Re: Avatar, there's no issue of trust because they haven't promised anything. Anything we know is based on insider information. There's no violation of "trust" if they go from an $800M land to a $200M land because they never SAID it was going to be $800M, we just happen to have some folks sharing some of the internal decision making process along the way.

 

[Lee]

No, not $1.2B. More like $0.8.

$.8 Bil for Avatar, or for total investment.
Important distinction. I still hear about half that for Avatar.

 

[sshindel]

I'll ask this question again, but won't expect anyone to really have an answer I guess, since very few people would really be able to see these numbers. Just hopeful maybe @WDW1974 heard something on his visit, and since he brought up the "billions on tech that isnt needed", it brought the question to my mind again.

Anyone know how much of the reported budget on NGE was spent on underlying systems and technical infrastructure? Not the "bells and whistles" that they threw on top to sell it to the board of directors and to the customers, but the work to create new systems, upgrade and sunset old outdated (and likely falling apart) ones, integration of different separate systems into consolidated ones, etc.

 

[bubbles1812]

I have an entire thread addressing the remainder of that post as it relates to Avatar. I'm fine with you and others criticising cuts that have been made but you step into "unreasonable" territory when you pre-criticize cuts you think they MIGHT make in the future.

I don't think it's unreasonable to predict future behavior on well established past patterns. You do realize that is how many many many many and I will say it again, many professions work. Sure they could be different this time but it isn't likely. Past behavior tends to predict future behavior.

It's not an issue of "pre-critcizing" to use your word, just for kicks and to be annoying or antagonistic or something, but one of staying grounded in reality and being realistic/accepting how Disney (or whatever company ect) tends to act. What you see as "negativity" (because you love that word I've noticed) is actually for the most part people just realizing Disney tends to follow a specific pattern (as for example dramatically cutting costs well into development/axing key parts of lands) and tend to not deviate from said pattern.

Also, I have read your Avatar thread. But you attacked saying "he must be lying or has an agenda" if he says the budget for Avatar is in a lower range like 400-500 million. But as I pointed out, this was contrary to your OWN information you have provided saying that the overall figure you threw out is not just for Avatar but for DAK as a whole. Therefore, it's fairly reasonable to assume the Avatar budget is less than that 0.8 billion you claim will be spent total overall and may very well be in that 400 million range, especially given past provided information...Which has shown Disney's desire to have the cost be around there. I guess I was hoping you'd at least suck it up and be a man and acknowledge the error. I was wrong.

 

[Tim_4]

I don't think it's unreasonable to predict future behavior on well established past patterns. You do realize that is how many many many many and I will say it again, many professions work. Sure they could be different this time but it isn't likely. Past behavior tends to predict future behavior.

It's not an issue of "pre-critcizing" to use your word, just for kicks and to be annoying or antagonistic or something, but one of staying grounded in reality and being realistic/accepting how Disney (or whatever company ect) tends to act. What you see as "negativity" (because you love that word I've noticed) is actually for the most part people just realizing Disney tends to follow a specific pattern (as for example dramatically cutting costs well into development/axing key parts of lands) and tend to not deviate from said pattern.

This isn't snarky because I haven't followed this stuff closely for very long and I really don't know, but wasn't 7DMT (i.e. the featured element of FLE) actually ADDED to the original plans as a replacement of the presumably cheaper Pixie Hollow? I get it, y'all are bitter about the way Beastly Kingdom and Dinoland shook out, but that was fifteen years ago.

 

[Funmeister]

Well, it only took 35 pages of one of my threads for someone to attack, so things are improving by degrees around here.

What do you know about Avatar @Tim_4 and why should we believe you? When last I heard that was the budget for Pandora and was what Disney widely publicized. Now what should we believe? That one of the cheapest companies has upped the budget to $1.2 billion and is building multiple E-Ticket attractions?

Please, tell me what you know and I'll try and confirm it ...unless you have crap sources or are lying to further some agenda.

I can tell you his source...lol

 

[Lee]

This isn't snarky because I haven't followed this stuff closely for very long and I really don't know, but wasn't 7DMT (i.e. the featured element of FLE) actually ADDED to the original plans as a replacement of the presumably cheaper Pixie Hollow? I get it, y'all are bitter about the way Beastly Kingdom and Dinoland shook out, but that was fifteen years ago.

It replaced Pixie Hollow and the other two mega meet and greets.
Thankfully.

 

[DougK]

No, not $1.2B. More like $0.8.

Wow these numbers are very far apart. $1.2B is 1 billion two hundred million dollars. $0.8 is 80 cents.

 

[bubbles1812]

This isn't snarky because I haven't followed this stuff closely for very long and I really don't know, but wasn't 7DMT (i.e. the featured element of FLE) actually ADDED to the original plans as a replacement of the presumably cheaper Pixie Hollow? I get it, y'all are bitter about the way Beastly Kingdom and Dinoland shook out, but that was fifteen years ago.

I'm not remotely bitter about Beastly Kingdom or Dinoland. And for the most part, I dont exactly see those talked about, not in this thread. So why the constant attack? By doing so, you discredit yourself with the angry retorts that address nothing in other posters comments. I'm actually a supporter of the Avatar project. I'm not one of those who doesn't want it. DAK needs something. If Avatar is it, I think it fits the theme fine and could do well, if done well. Though I am of the opinion it is a "must go big or it will fail" type of project simply because the story behind it isn't all that strong.

You acknowledged it is legitimate to criticize the cuts Disney has made on projects... Well they've done that with WDW projects consistently. It's expected at this point. So why shouldn't we expect they follow their own pattern? It's not like there has been a dramatic change in management or business philosophy. Nothing to suggest they won't continue to follow their business model, which includes cutting projects down.

And yes, they did do that. And just like Lee, I am more than grateful for it. They needed a ride in there besides a clone. And you are right, I do suppose 7DMT was more expensive than Pixie Hollow. But that's looking at just one aspect of the project. As a whole, the original NFE plans called for much more than what is actually got built. They still cut the project down as a whole, as per their normal pattern. And even to come back to the 7DMT, they cut the track length and number of show scenes, again following their predictable track record of cutting down projects... So tell me again why I shouldn't expect them to do it this time? Why I should magically expect them to change? Again, this is not me "pre criticizing" just to be antagonistic. All it is is using past behavior to predict future behavior and recognizing the reality of the way a Disney operates.

 

[GLaDOS]

He doesn't have a mouse job and if he's saying $400-$500M he's either got crap sources on this one or he's lying to further some agenda.

You do realize Staggs and Iger both put out the budget as 500 million, right?

Right?

 

[MattM]

Wow these numbers are very far apart. $1.2B is 1 billion two hundred million dollars. $0.8 is 80 cents.

I think 90% of the people here understood what the $0.8 implied.

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

Just watched Staggs at D11 (thanks for putting that video up Steve!). Really interesting information, and I must admit, the use of Edna Mode made me happy.

Those moderators, and I have no idea who they are and I'm sure they're just lovely people in real life, were insufferable. Tom Fitzgerald would have loved them - all they want is screens, screens and more screens!

Staggs was also very guarded and careful about how MM+ would be implemented in other parks, which to me, spells hope for DLR.

Interestingly enough, no one asked him how much this was all costing Mickey...would have loved to have heard that answer.

 

[Tim_4]

I'm not sure why @bubbles1812 things I'm angry. Certainly not. I'm a learner by nature and I really want to understand.

Iger and his disciples run the show, yes?

Iger and his disciples are blamed for the vast majority of perceived problems at WDW, including Blue Ocean. (See @WDW1974's OP in Spirited thread #2.)

Spirit and his friends praise DLR, DCL, and other non-WDW Disney properties for their wonderfulness.

Iger runs the WHOLE show, not just WDW.

I've asked this before but have yet to get a good answer. If Iger and his way of thinking are responsible for the demise of WDW, why hasn't his awfulness and poisonous thinking ruined DLR, DCL, and these other entities within TWDC? What is so unique about WDW that it makes Iger an incompetent executive in so many people's eyes, when the same people look with wonderment on the rest of his domain?