Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts Tres

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the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
That may be great, but I am not reading something that long ... any key points?

Key points:
  1. Hulk think Henry Cavill is hot... don't tell Tony Stark. ;)
  2. The film suffers from "faulty engineering" on the character and story levels
  3. There is no dramatizing to emotionally engage the audience
  4. The filmmakers had very little interest in developing Superman as a character, he does not have a character arc.
  5. Plot is a series of excuses to connect action sequences
  6. They don't understand flashbacks, which undermines natural character development for Clark Kent.
  7. Lois Lane isn't really that pertinent to the plot or the characterization of Clark Kent and there is no real convincing relationship between them (Chemistry does not instantly equal relationship).
  8. Pa Kent....
  9. Perry White????
  10. Cotex, MacGuffin, meh.
There's more and I would encourage folks to read it if they can put the time into it, but I'll post an excerpt that I think describes the main issue he sees in Man of Steel.
Hulk said:
FIRST OFF, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO IGNORE THE LARGER CULTURAL CONVERSATION ABOUT SUPERMAN'S IDENTITY AND ETHOS FOR THE MOMENT, FOR WHAT WE ARE PRIMARILY CONCERNED WITH IS THE CHARACTERIZATION WITHIN THE NARRATIVE. IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT "WHO WE THINK SUPERMAN SHOULD BE," BUT "THE PROBLEMS WITH THIS SUPERMAN AS HE EXISTS IN THIS PARTICULAR STORY." DOES THAT DIFFERENCE MAKE SENSE?
COOL.
NOW, TO EXPLAIN THIS WHOLE ISSUE OF CHARACTER CLARITY HULK IS GOING TO FIRST TURN TO AN OLD SAYING IN STORYTELLING THAT "CHARACTER IS KING." WHILE THAT PHRASE IS SOMETHING A LOT OF PEOPLE HEAR, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND IT. THE SAYING IS NOT ONLY MEANT TO IMPLY THAT CHARACTERS ARE "THE MOST IMPORTANT THING" IN YOUR NARRATIVE, BUT WE ARE MEANT TO TAKE THE ANALOGY EVEN FURTHER TO IMPLY: EVERYTHING ABOUT YOUR STORY SHOULD BE DICTATED FROMCHARACTER. MEANING THEY'RE NOT JUST IMPORTANT, BUT THAT THEIR ACTIONS SHOULD SPECIFICALLY CONTROL AND SHAPE YOUR PLOT. FURTHERMORE, THE DECISIONS OR ETHOS OF YOUR CHARACTER SHOULD DICTATE ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT IS CONTAINED WITHIN THE MOVIE ITSELF. WHICH ISN'T TO SAY YOU CAN'T FUDGE THAT LINE SOMETIMES AND HAVE FUN DIVERSIONS AND MOMENTS OF LEFT-FIELD INCLUSION, BUT YOU WOULD BE SHOCKED HOW MANY FILMS JUST DO THE OPPOSITE AND HAVE THEIR CHARACTERS REACTING TO THE PLOT AT ALL TIMES. SERIOUSLY. EVEN THE NON-DECISIONS OF PASSIVE CHARACTERS SHOULD HAVE A SHAPING EFFECT. AND SINCE CHARACTER DICTATES STORY, IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT BAD MOVIES TEND TO GEAR THEIR STORIES AROUND A SERIES OF LOGIC-BASED MECHANISMS (THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER CONVERSATION) AND GOOD MOVIES GEAR THEIR STORIES AROUND THOSE LITTLE THINGS WE CALL "CHARACTER ARCS" I.E. THE WAY THE CHARACTER NOTICEABLY CHANGES OVER THE COURSE OF THE NARRATIVE, AS THEY ARE SHAPED BY THE EVENTS AND CHOICES THEY MAKE.
GOT IT? DOUBLE COOL.
THE SECOND OLD SAYING THAT APPLIES TO OUR CONVERSATION ABOUT MAN OF STEEL IS "SHOW, DON'T TELL." THIS POINT MATTERS BECAUSE WE EXPERIENCE STORIES AS EMOTIONAL BEINGS. NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TEND TO HARP ON THE FAILURES OF LOGIC, IT IS THE EMOTIONAL RESONANCE OF A STORY THAT ACTUALLY CONNECTS TO US. THEREFORE OUR SENSE OF TIME & PRESENCE WITHIN A NARRATIVE IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO EXIST FOR US SO THAT WE CAN BEST EXPERIENCE THE STORY IN THE SAME WAY THE CHARACTERS DO. MEANING THE MORE OF THE STORY WE EXPERIENCE FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE AT THE SAME TIME THEY DO, THE BETTER WE CAN RELATE TO THEIR SITUATION. IT SIMPLY MAKES FOR THE BEST EMOTIONAL TRANSFERENCE. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN HAVE A HERO GIVE A SPEECH ABOUT HOW THEY SUFFERED SOME HORRIFIC TRAGEDY OR SOMETHING AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE SAID, BUT IF YOU DRAMATIZE THAT PAIN (I.E. LET THE AUDIENCE EXPERIENCE THE THING INSTEAD OF JUST EXPLAINING IT) THEN YOU CAN COMMUNICATE WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT THE A CHARACTER ON AN INTRINSIC EMOTIONAL LEVEL, WHICH ALWAYS HAS FAR MORE MEANING AND EFFECT (AND TENDS TO LEAD TO BETTER CATHARSIS).
THAT'S WHAT "DRAMATIZING" ACTUALLY MEANS. YOU ARE FINDING AN IN-THE-MOMENT, CONFLICT-RIDDEN WAY TO MAKE THE AUDIENCE EXPERIENCE SOMETHING AS IF IT HAPPENED TO THEM... AND TO DO THAT BEST YOU REALLY NEED TIME AND EXPERIENCE TO BUILD ON.

Hulk uses the first 10 minutes of UP as an example of dramatizing done right.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I won't flame you because you are entitled to your opinions over what films resonante the strongest with you.

But I will fervently disagree with the perception by many in the fan community that Disney's Second Golden Age of Anaimation ended with The Lion King because subsequent features didn't reach the incredible for its time box office that Simba's tale did.

I loved Pocahontas and Hunchback is one of my absolutel favorite Disney films. These were films that didn't talk down to their audience, had some adult subject matter, were beautiful works of art AND had great music as well. Music that is used in theme park productions to this day. ... Colors of the Wind and Out There being just my two favorite examples from films rich in sound as well as sight.
The historian in me is not crazy about Pocahontas. However, Hunchback is a masterpiece, Hercules and Mulan were also great. Tarzan is where the decline began in my book. Emperor's New Groove was OK I also found Atlantis enjoyable. I did not see Treasure Planet or Brother Bear when they were in theaters (largely because of the lackluster Marketing Campaigns they received) But have since seen both on DVD and like them well enough. Home on the Range I am not touching. Chicken Little and Meet the Robinsons I don't care for at all. Bolt was OK but felt more like a Pixar Movie, The Princess and the Frog was a light surrounded by darkness. At this point I probably won't be seeing any WDAS features until they go back to Traditional Animation (If that ever happens) or make something very exceptional. Sorry I just flat out disagree with the Pixar Burbank approach WDAS seems to be adopting.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Good points all ... the funny thing is there were some very good films that did good BO $$$ like Hercules, Mulan and Tarzan to close out the 90s, but they tend to get lumped in with the cheapquels and troubled films that didn't do well.

I don't believe Disney put out a bad animated film in the 90s, but they were oversupplying the market, late to CGI (let's not talk about Dinosaur) and then started pennypinching and having MBAs working on scripts. It was a recipe cooked to disaster and that it what happened.

Let's not forget Eric Goldberg's and the Brizzi Brother's sequences from Fantasia 2000. I recently purchased the Walt Disney Animation Archive Series on Story, now those are some AMAZING storyboards.
 

willtravel

Well-Known Member
The historian in me is not crazy about Pocahontas. However, Hunchback is a masterpiece, Hercules and Mulan were also great. Tarzan is where the decline began in my book. Emperor's New Groove was OK I also found Atlantis enjoyable. I did not see Treasure Planet or Brother Bear when they were in theaters (largely because of the lackluster Marketing Campaigns they received) But have since seen both on DVD and like them well enough. Home on the Range I am not touching. Chicken Little and Meet the Robinsons I don't care for at all. Bolt was OK but felt more like a Pixar Movie, The Princess and the Frog was a light surrounded by darkness. At this point I probably won't be seeing any WDAS features until they go back to Traditional Animation or make something very exceptional. Sorry I just flat out disagree with the Pixar Burbank approach WDAS seems to be adopting.
Definitely can tell you liked the Walt Disney 90's movies.
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
Yes, I've seen him multiple times (most recently at the MGM Grand Turkey Day weekend 2005), but none were as great as that O-Town show. I've never been to such an electric atmosphere for a concert. It's just amazing as the guy is my father's age and to do what he still does ... gotta catch him again!
You can see him here in his hometown of Palm Springs tomorrow afternoon. He is presenting KC And The Sunshine Band their star on the Walk Of Fame.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Do tell ...

I'm guessing one kind goes to the Captain's Grille (or whatever the YC Galley is now called) and the other to Yachtsman Steakhouse.
The steak fries are shared from the Yachtsman, but the Parmesian Garlic fries, which are thinner with the peels on, are exclusive to the lounge
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Let's not forget Eric Goldberg's and the Brizzi Brother's sequences from Fantasia 2000. I recently purchased the Walt Disney Animation Archive Series on Story, now those are some AMAZING storyboards.
Fantasia 2000 was very good as well. Not quite as good as the Original (Obviously) (and Bette Midler's introduction sequence was beyond painful) but the IMAX Exclusive Thing was probably not a good idea. I remember back in 2000 my family had to drive about 2-3 hours from where I live to see Fantasia 2000 at the Baltimore Science Museum (IMAX was much more obscure back then). It was fun but seemed a bit extreme just to see a movie.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
You can see him here in his hometown of Palm Springs tomorrow afternoon. He is presenting KC And The Sunshine Band their star on the Walk Of Fame.
See Who??? or possibly Whom??? I know it was mentioned someplace in the previous 5494 posts but I'm to old to have enough time to read them all to solve this mystery. If anyone knows, just say the name and I will go away quietly. :oops:
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
See Who??? or possibly Whom??? I know it was mentioned someplace in the previous 5494 posts but I'm to old to have enough time to read them all to solve this mystery. If anyone knows, just say the name and I will go away quietly. :oops:
Barry Manilow, KC also has a house near here along with a slew of other celebs.
 

Swfewrmco

Active Member
When you look at places like Red Robin who have gotten to the top by marketing, hype, and convenience that changes a bit. Their burgers are surely under the Five Guys level. I blame it more on consumers who do not understand what quality food offerings nowadays.
I remember coming home on the train one Friday and overhearing a conversation about how bad Red Robin was, but how one of the guys was going to end up there anyway with the family because "they have balloons for the kids".
 

Soarin' Over Pgh

Well-Known Member
K so I read through all bu the last four pages...y'all are making me hungry.

Thoughts:

Tangled does have staying power. It's songs are quality, and memorable. You have to factor in the eye candy for the younger generation. They'll remember the songs and visuals. I think Flynn Ryder is just as popular as Rapunzel herself.

Why does my iPad insist her name is rapt zeal?

To whoever posted the Extreme video, thanks for that. Haha

I'm pretty sure I am the only person who does not, and will not ever like Pochahantas. Or Up. Or Hercules. And I'm ok with that. Not every movie is for every person.

I saw DM2 today and loved it. Nice moments for adults without needing to get raunchy. I really like that. Keeps it classy...or something like that. Wanted to see LR as well but decided that an iced mocha would be more interesting and action packed. Again, not every movie is for every person.

As for food, I've never had in and out nor five guys. Or really, anything mentioned here. I don't like McDonald's or Burger King, or Wendy's.... I guess I have nothing to contribute to the foodie talk.

I like watermelon...

Ok, reading on. Need another glass of wine.
 

yoyoflamingo

Well-Known Member
The historian in me is not crazy about Pocahontas. However, Hunchback is a masterpiece, Hercules and Mulan were also great. Tarzan is where the decline began in my book. Emperor's New Groove was OK I also found Atlantis enjoyable. I did not see Treasure Planet or Brother Bear when they were in theaters (largely because of the lackluster Marketing Campaigns they received) But have since seen both on DVD and like them well enough. Home on the Range I am not touching. Chicken Little and Meet the Robinsons I don't care for at all. Bolt was OK but felt more like a Pixar Movie, The Princess and the Frog was a light surrounded by darkness. At this point I probably won't be seeing any WDAS features until they go back to Traditional Animation (If that ever happens) or make something very exceptional. Sorry I just flat out disagree with the Pixar Burbank approach WDAS seems to be adopting.

Wreck It Ralph was actually really well done - I thought it should have won the Oscar over Brave, and I enjoyed Brave.
 

Soarin' Over Pgh

Well-Known Member
Wreck It Ralph was actually really well done - I thought it should have won the Oscar over Brave, and I enjoyed Brave.
Agreed. I really enjoyed it. I didn't care as much for brave, sadly.

I really dislike Sarah Silverman, that put a dent in wreck it Ralph a bit for me. Otherwise, it was pretty solid.

And the merchandise for Ralph is adorable...I bought one of the little go cart girls for my dresser. Yeah 29years old, with disney all over her bedroom.

:/
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Agreed. I really enjoyed it. I didn't care as much for brave, sadly.

I really dislike Sarah Silverman, that put a dent in wreck it Ralph a bit for me. Otherwise, it was pretty solid.

And the merchandise for Ralph is adorable...I bought one of the little go cart girls for my dresser. Yeah 29years old, with disney all over her bedroom.

:/

I am not a big fan or her either, but Vanellope was such a great character I was able to separate her from the character.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
When you look at places like Red Robin who have gotten to the top by marketing, hype, and convenience that changes a bit. Their burgers are surely under the Five Guys level. I blame it more on consumers who do not understand what quality food offerings nowadays.

As somebody who has worked in food service this is so completely true. I know I'm not much of a connoisseur but I just hear so much utter nonsense out of people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about. My favorite are people who insist on a custom order with all of this and all of that and then try to complain that they want a refund because it is a gross combination.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Fantasia 2000 was very good as well. Not quite as good as the Original (Obviously) (and Bette Midler's introduction sequence was beyond painful) but the IMAX Exclusive Thing was probably not a good idea. I remember back in 2000 my family had to drive about 2-3 hours from where I live to see Fantasia 2000 at the Baltimore Science Museum (IMAX was much more obscure back then). It was fun but seemed a bit extreme just to see a movie.

I remember seeing F2K in IMAX on January 1st 2000 (and then later in its same run) and thinking it was a big deal to see something like that format. I think the idea was to mimic the setreo awe factor of the original.

I also saw an advance screening of Polar Express which was my intro to IMAX 3-D (5 years before Avatar) and was amazed with the tech there.

Problem with these tech shows is that they can't save a bad movie, and if every other release its going to be in IMAX 3D Mega Stereo Smellovision, the uniqueness disappears and loses its appeal. Oz the Great and Powerful was a rare movie that deserved to be seen in IMAX 3D since it actually benefited the movie.

Now if we can go back to the days of William Castle dropping plastic skeletons on the audience we might be on to something. ;)
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
On the subject of Hunchback, I'm inbetween the sides of "they ruined it!" and "it's a masterpiece". When the movie works, it's amazing (the opening is the best of any DAC, without question), but it has its glaring flaws too ("A Guy Like You", anything with Hugo). I think all of TWDC wasn't exactly 100% sure on how to do it. The director's wanted more slapstick, I think the MBAs were scared of it not appealing to children. The writing and animation is very much lacking in subltey at times ("what do they got against people who are different anyway?!" Frollo smirking like he's Lady Tremaine etc.) too. With more refinement and commitment, it would have been amongst the top 5 best movies they ever animated. The Blu-ray looks great though. Finally a sourced from CAPS transfer in 1080p to boot!

Tangled is wonderful, gets better every time I watch it. Yes most of the songs are not Menken's best, but I'll take a somewhat-week song score over say, sidekick characters I wish never existed. Wreck-It-Ralph was too, but Venellope was far from loveable. More passable than anything.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
I won't flame you because you are entitled to your opinions over what films resonante the strongest with you.

But I will fervently disagree with the perception by many in the fan community that Disney's Second Golden Age of Anaimation ended with The Lion King because subsequent features didn't reach the incredible for its time box office that Simba's tale did.

I loved Pocahontas and Hunchback is one of my absolutel favorite Disney films. These were films that didn't talk down to their audience, had some adult subject matter, were beautiful works of art AND had great music as well. Music that is used in theme park productions to this day. ... Colors of the Wind and Out There being just my two favorite examples from films rich in sound as well as sight.

I watched Hunchback literally this morning on Netflix... an absolutely beautiful film.
 
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