Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

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Lord_Vader

Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
Lets pretend the system goes live and it works flawlessly. Great, folks make FP+ choices 60 days out and they get to swipe their band instead of a card and can use their smart phone to change FP if needed. I am not against any of that. It sounds more convenient. But thats it, its just a slightly more convenient vacation. Its great that Disney wants to update the system, but at the tune of 1 billion + dollars and climbing everyday, it seems like soooooooo much money spent to make a vacation SLIGHTLY more convenient. You hear people say things like, "Im so relieved that I know my family will get to ride the attractions they want." Seriously? Has anyone ever really worried about their family not being able to ride the rides they want to? I dont care if you have been 1 time or a hundred times, I never heard anybody say anything remotely close to that.

More people are questioning the financial aspect and the very small return the customer gets for it. Now, other projects are getting put on hold from maintenance to new attraction development. The MagicBands just get bashed because they are the polished turd of this whole operation.

There is so much more to the overall architecture, your MDE app also has greatly enhanced maps, live wait time data, live FP distribution times, express/advance resort check in, free in-park and resort Wi-Fi, etc. that the average visitor will value greatly. This NGE project is not just about FP+ or MB, they are simply features that are enabled byt the NGE project as it is a complete overall of the entire TDO back office servers, databases, credit card processing, turnstyles, reservation system and more.

I have personally experienced an ADR server outage or two during each of our last four or five visits that caused a lot of hassles including us not being able to retrieve Aloha Dinner Show tickets in advance and resulting in us standing at the Poly Concierge desk for an hour before getting things fixed and to boot the ADR system was done two years in a row on our 180 day window opening for most of the morning. We always had to swap our APs because the magnetic strip quit working for our summer trip.
 

Lord_Vader

Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
I use a "bonus card" at Giant supermarket. I'm sure they can track and sell a whole boat load of data on my eating and spending habits. Guess what, I don't really care. I still use it. Now you may say you get a discount for using it, but you can always ask for the "store card" for that. If you don't think that your spending, calling, social networking habits are not currently being tracked, bundled and sold then you are pretty niave. The type of magazines you buy, the websites you visit, the car you drive, almost every interaction you make with the rest of the world is stored and processed in some marketing mainframe. And do you really think the CIA/Government needs Disney World to gather data for them? That is one of the funniest things I've ever read. This very post I'm making is being saved and analysed be some complex algorythim before I even hit the "Post Reply" button.

If that bothers you, don't go to Disney World. Build a cabin up in the secluded mountains and I would probably be envious of your conviction. Otherwise, I would say either get used to it or get over it because data mining and tracking has been going on well before Iger ever heard the word "Next Gen".

Could not agree more, a local company that almost entirely focuses on customer data is Acxiom Corp. The manage database mining for many fortune 500 companies include Bank of America, Disney, Target, Kroger, etc. and their sole purpose is to increase customer loyalty which increases guest spending. They are so deep with Bank of America that when you search Google for them, you get a Bank of America add.
 

scout68

Well-Known Member
If that bothers you, don't go to Disney World. Build a cabin up in the secluded mountains and I would probably be envious of your conviction. Otherwise, I would say either get used to it or get over it because data mining and tracking has been going on well before Iger ever heard the word "Next Gen".

It takes a village...
I don't want to get used to it.
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure that we will not see the full effect of NextGen for quite some time.

Not because it won't be rolled out in the near future, but because the really interesting thing will be what Disney is going to do with all the data it will be able to collect through the MagicBands.

The difference between the Band and a loyalty card (or a mere RFID bracelet system as my local municipal swimming pool has had for five years) is two things:

First, the fact that the Band is not only a passive chip, but actually has a transmitter. This makes tracking locations much easier. We will have to see how Disney will be able to use that date - combined with everything else they are learning about spending habits etc. @ParentsOf4 made a number of suggestions to what data could be used. Other ideas that come to mind would be staffing set according to the number of FP+ reservations in the system (i.e. on days with less FP+ reservation the ride capacity can be reduced) or all kind of other operational changes if they find out that these promote sales. The thing is, all the knowledge they gain could be used to really enhance the guest experience, but it can also be used to enhance the company's profit. Maybe in some cases both things can happen simultaneously, but I am to much of a cynic (and if you knew me in real life, you would know that I am far from a cynical personality!!!) to think that this will often be the case and hence the company will chose the profit over the guest experience.

The second big difference as compared to a loyalty card is that once you are on Disney property, you are already a "caged in" consumer. Supermarkets are easy to get to, many people would have a daily choice between several chains, so the purpose of the supermarket loyalty card is to make sure that you keep returning for your weekly shop to that one chain. So they lure you with discounts. From everything I have heard, the main component of NextGen is not to get people to come to WDW, I think Disney assumes that they will come anyway. And to a certain extent that is right. Once you made that decision to travel to Orlando for a Disney vacation, you already have committed to spend a lot of time on Disney property. So NextGen is not about getting people to travel to Disney instead of to the beach for their summer vacation. It is all about maximising the profit they make out of every single visitor. And therefore there is no need to offer discounts to get your business. I think this brings us back to what @WDW1974 wrote many threads ago about how Disney thinks it can operate in a Blue Ocean.

Those two factors make me sceptical about NextGen. And it won't be for a number of years until I can find out whether my scepticism was appropriate or not. No current test will convince me of the system being great, even if I took part in it and enjoyed it. We are not seeing the full effects yet!
 

Fe Maiden

Well-Known Member
There is so much more to the overall architecture, your MDE app also has greatly enhanced maps, live wait time data, live FP distribution times, express/advance resort check in, free in-park and resort Wi-Fi, etc. that the average visitor will value greatly.

As someone who was there last week (and not testing FP+) using the MDE app was awesome. From the wait times, to FP windows, to ride closures and re-openings, we saved so much time and felt like we were ahead of the crowds all week. Friday, our last day was a perfect example.

We decided to scrap our 5pm ADR for the GF Café and left the MK to go swimming at BLT. After we walked back, got a snack, changed into our bathing suits, as soon as we put our towels down on a lounge chair the thunder started and they closed the pools. Since we canceled our ADR we decided to go back to the MK for the rest of the night. However, I looked at the MDE and it showed that 5 or 6 attractions including Splash and BTMRR were temporarily closed (my guess is due to the thunder/lightning). What did we do? Made a quick ADR for Kona (party of 6) and was on the monorail to the Poly in 20 minutes for dinner and then onto the MK for the rest of the night. All on the go, spur of the moment.
 

Sue_Vongello

Well-Known Member
The tests do have value to the discussion when we are talking about the mob think of 'everyone hates FP+' or 'it will never work for me!'. Your list of 'issues' leaves out many of the points of discussion earlier

1. 'I won't wear the band because it's clunky!'
2. 'I don't wear jewelry!!'
3. 'I get rashes!'
4. 'My kids won't wear them!'
5. 'Is it really any easier to use a band vs card?'
6. 'people don't want to use their smartphones'
7. 'its too complicated!'
8. 'I don't know where/what I want to ride ahead of time!'
9. 'the wifi sucks and it never works'
10. 'what happens when I miss my FP+ reservation'
11. 'what if it gets lost'
12. 'Pin is bad!' 'Pin is good!' 'PIN is cumbersome!'
etc
etc
etc


Does it address all concerns? of course not... not all the true constraints are in place yet. But the real world testing does sample what happens when you put the gen pop in the mix and not just the assumptions people here were dreaming up over how people will respond to using the bands, tap to pay, etc.

Yea but come on ... I left out those issues for obvious reasons. You and I and many others are smart enough to know most of those are not legit questions to ask.

The beta "real world" testing addresses some questions about basic functionality, gets CMs trained, and answers internal questions about technology but in terms of the major questions I mentioned earlier on how it will impact the guests on a whole just simply can't be answered in beta testing ... and won't be answered for some time. So to say it's a success or the positive reviews mean anything is a stretch (and I am not saying you did that, either).

So basically we can go back and forth all we want but the deal is ... there are some major concerns/questions that no one has the answers to now, and likely won't for some time, and no matter what side of the fence you come down on you should be a least a little interested about what the answers may or may not be.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Those two factors make me sceptical about NextGen. And it won't be for a number of years until I can find out whether my scepticism was appropriate or not. No current test will convince me of the system being great, even if I took part in it and enjoyed it. We are not seeing the full effects yet!

But it should also be noted that the motivations here do not change at all. Everything you listed about Disney, their intents, and motivations are exactly as it is today. These additions are just new tools to help refine the data they are working with. So Disney will be 'better' at doing this, it does not change what Disney is or what it desires to be.

So.. if you were already ok with Disney shaping itself, driving itself, in these fashions before... are things really going to be that different?
 

luv

Well-Known Member
1. How many FP will be left day of when EVERYONE is using? (Won't know until completely live)
2. How will the system work with AP holders? (Won't know until Disney tells us)
3. Why did they need to invest this much in this? (Won't know ever.)
4. How will the data mining and tracking work and/or affect us? (Won't know ever.)
5. How does this investment effect future investment into park attractions? (Won't get clear answers.)
6. How many FP a day will be allotted per guests, does it depend on where you stay? (Won't know until completely live)
Except for #4, I have those same questions.

I also want to know if they're going to let AP people just use the card or if they plan to make us switch to the bands. I KNOW many posters say they won't make us, but I'd like to hear it from Disney.

As flynnibus pointed out, some people just don't like wristbands. :) It's a valid enough point for us. ;) :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Yea but come on ... I left out those issues for obvious reasons. You and I and many others are smart enough to know most of those are not legit questions to ask.

Yet it was belabored for MONTHS here and was half the ammo people had about why bands are bad, etc. They were 'real' concerns if you believe so many of the posters on this site. Your join date is recent... maybe you missed how distraught people were over these 'issues'.

The beta "real world" testing addresses some questions about basic functionality, gets CMs trained, and answers internal questions about technology but in terms of the major questions I mentioned earlier on how it will impact the guests on a whole just simply can't be answered in beta testing ... and won't be answered for some time. So to say it's a success or the positive reviews mean anything is a stretch (and I am not saying you did that, either).

Scale and contention are not included in these tests in full.. but so much is. It's dismissive to throw these claims out entirely simply because the contention angle isn't covered yet. I mean, they can still get regular FPs right now.. that alone is a huge difference compared to what we are told the final solution will be. But that glaring gap doesn't change things like

- how the new entrances work
- how tap n pay works
- how reservations tied to an individual identity instead of a transferable piece of paper works
- how the app's usability works
- the website's usability
and much more

The reality is people are being dipped into the new WDW experience.. and most are doing just fine. Maybe even more telling to this audience, is those that are having problems, are tolerating them and not letting it ruin their vacations. These are all very valuable references.

The availability of FP and lack of true contention are factors differentiating this from a final test. But that doesn't change the feedback on other elements of the test. I think the intelligent can decipher which elements will rely on contention or not... but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

Sue_Vongello

Well-Known Member
Yet it was belabored for MONTHS here and was half the ammo people had about why bands are bad, etc. They were 'real' concerns if you believe so many of the posters on this site. Your join date is recent... maybe you missed how distraught people were over these 'issues'.



Scale and contention are not included in these tests in full.. but so much is. It's dismissive to throw these claims out entirely simply because the contention angle isn't covered yet. I mean, they can still get regular FPs right now.. that alone is a huge difference compared to what we are told the final solution will be. But that glaring gap doesn't change things like

- how the new entrances work
- how tap n pay works
- how reservations tied to an individual identity instead of a transferable piece of paper works
- how the app's usability works
- the website's usability
and much more

The reality is people are being dipped into the new WDW experience.. and most are doing just fine. Maybe even more telling to this audience, is those that are having problems, are tolerating them and not letting it ruin their vacations. These are all very valuable references.

The availability of FP and lack of true contention are factors differentiating this from a final test. But that doesn't change the feedback on other elements of the test. I think the intelligent can decipher which elements will rely on contention or not... but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Now we're just getting into semantics of importance ... all the things you listed I just don't see as concerns/questions for us as the consumer, they are mostly minor for us and yes through beta testing those things get ironed out ... sure, for Disney they are huge because it's new tech, new procedures etc ... but for us ... just doesn't impact us too much yet. The online reservation may work now but when EVERYONE is trying to book 180 days out then let's see how it handles that traffic.

Not to belabor my point but here are some fairly major questions we don't have answers to ...

1. How many FP will be left day of when EVERYONE is using? (Won't know until completely live)
2. How will the system work with AP holders? (Won't know until Disney tells us)
3. Why did they need to invest this much in this? (Won't know ever.)
4. How will the data mining and tracking work and/or affect us? (Won't know ever.)
5. How does this investment effect future investment into park attractions? (Won't get clear answers.)
6. How many FP a day will be allotted per guests, does it depend on where you stay? (Won't know until completely live)

Whether you find all of these or others entirely relevant is up to you but at least a few of these will impact everyone so the answers are crucial before casting judgement or calling it a success or you know ... whatever.
 

Lord_Vader

Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
As someone who was there last week (and not testing FP+) using the MDE app was awesome. From the wait times, to FP windows, to ride closures and re-openings, we saved so much time and felt like we were ahead of the crowds all week. Friday, our last day was a perfect example.

We decided to scrap our 5pm ADR for the GF Café and left the MK to go swimming at BLT. After we walked back, got a snack, changed into our bathing suits, as soon as we put our towels down on a lounge chair the thunder started and they closed the pools. Since we canceled our ADR we decided to go back to the MK for the rest of the night. However, I looked at the MDE and it showed that 5 or 6 attractions including Splash and BTMRR were temporarily closed (my guess is due to the thunder/lightning). What did we do? Made a quick ADR for Kona (party of 6) and was on the monorail to the Poly in 20 minutes for dinner and then onto the MK for the rest of the night. All on the go, spur of the moment.

Most of this would not have been possible a year ago without a lot of legwork or prior knowlege. Too many people on this thread are only focusing on FP+ when there is SO MUCH more going on that positively impacts the vacation experience. I am not without signifigant reservations about FP+ but am trying to keep an open mind and very glad to see your response. As someone who rarely if ever uses the maps, the MDE app provided great schedule updates for my family during our summer vacation and allowed us to make ADR changes/reservations on the fly without having to sit on hold for a half hour as well which was much better than in years past.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
At UNI - the EP signs are everywhere to say 'buy it!' but not much on what it is or how it works... basically 'whats the catch'.
I disagree. All the signs say "skip the Lines" (or something to that effect." Express Pass Available Here (or something to that effect). After a ride or two, even the most uninformed realize what it is.

At Disney it's a major portion of every map in every park. I don't know how it could get into the hands of every new customer any more direct. If you are new, they will give you a map.. and it's right there in it. It's on all the resort TVs, etc. It's plenty visible.
Yes, it was on the map (I don't see anything on the current maps), but it wasn't as prominent as you'd think. It was under "Magical Time Saver" which listed other things as well (Photopass, Mobile Magic App) and looked exactly like the kind of page you'd skip over. So I disagree that it's "plenty" visible.

The problem is people simply don't ask and are oblivious to the information right in their hand.
No argument there.

Every FP distribution area has big signs.. and every FP distribution area is staffed by CMs as is every FP return area. If something were so perplexing... there is amble opportunity to discover what it is. Reality is, some people just hole up and won't look or ask.
I would disagree as well. FP distribution isn't always in the line-of-sight of an attraction's entrance, so if you aren't looking for it, it's easy to ignore. And there are signs, but they aren't exactly flashy or calling attention to themselves.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
because for the billionth time... the billion isn't just for FP+. From queue improvements (HM, Pooh, BTMRR, etc) to websites... and a million other things inbetween.

Yes, but those queue improvements were designed for lengthier waits in anticipation of FP+ roll out. And the website is just as slow and unbearable as ever.
 

Clamman73

Well-Known Member
Lets pretend the system goes live and it works flawlessly. Great, folks make FP+ choices 60 days out and they get to swipe their band instead of a card and can use their smart phone to change FP if needed. I am not against any of that. It sounds more convenient. But thats it, its just a slightly more convenient vacation. Its great that Disney wants to update the system, but at the tune of 1 billion + dollars and climbing everyday, it seems like soooooooo much money spent to make a vacation SLIGHTLY more convenient. You hear people say things like, "Im so relieved that I know my family will get to ride the attractions they want." Seriously? Has anyone ever really worried about their family not being able to ride the rides they want to? I dont care if you have been 1 time or a hundred times, I never heard anybody say anything remotely close to that.

More people are questioning the financial aspect and the very small return the customer gets for it. Now, other projects are getting put on hold from maintenance to new attraction development. The MagicBands just get bashed because they are the polished turd of this whole operation.

Making the vacation slightly more convenient for most is the facade they put up for the vacationers to believe in, and that's why they called it Magic Band when in reality it should have been called Data Mining Band.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Now we're just getting into semantics of importance ... all the things you listed I just don't see as concerns/questions for us as the consumer

If you mean 'us' as in you... that's fine. If you mean 'us' as Disney customers. The literal thousands of posts on the topic here over the last year + would disagree that your opinion is shared by all. To me, much were non-factors, but there are dozens if not hundred+ posters here that would disagree.

Whether you find all of these or others entirely relevant is up to you but at least a few of these will impact everyone so the answers are crucial before casting judgement or calling it a success or you know ... whatever.

Arguments no one is making. No one is calling it a success based on the trip reports. Simply pointing out that many people have a different experience then what has been painted here in this thread. @fractal 's post was dead-on... there is these threads painting one picture.. and then lots of others painting entirely different views being ignored here. Or in your case.. dismissing.
 

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
As someone who was there last week (and not testing FP+) using the MDE app was awesome. From the wait times, to FP windows, to ride closures and re-openings, we saved so much time and felt like we were ahead of the crowds all week. Friday, our last day was a perfect example.

We decided to scrap our 5pm ADR for the GF Café and left the MK to go swimming at BLT. After we walked back, got a snack, changed into our bathing suits, as soon as we put our towels down on a lounge chair the thunder started and they closed the pools. Since we canceled our ADR we decided to go back to the MK for the rest of the night. However, I looked at the MDE and it showed that 5 or 6 attractions including Splash and BTMRR were temporarily closed (my guess is due to the thunder/lightning). What did we do? Made a quick ADR for Kona (party of 6) and was on the monorail to the Poly in 20 minutes for dinner and then onto the MK for the rest of the night. All on the go, spur of the moment.

^^That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I disagree. All the signs say "skip the Lines" (or something to that effect." Express Pass Available Here (or something to that effect). After a ride or two, even the most uninformed realize what it is.

Dunno... UNI does a great job of confusing guests on what the different EP options are, etc. What I do agree with is, they push it hard in the parks to buy them... I find the sandwich boards everywhere tacky IMO.. almost as bad as the DVC Kiosks.

Yes, it was on the map (I don't see anything on the current maps), but it wasn't as prominent as you'd think. It was under "Magical Time Saver" which listed other things as well (Photopass, Mobile Magic App) and looked exactly like the kind of page you'd skip over. So I disagree that it's "plenty" visible.

Yes, in recent iterations it has been downsized in it's prominence . it used to be a full panel. But the system is also going on 15 years old... awareness is pretty good :)

I would disagree as well. FP distribution isn't always in the line-of-sight of an attraction's entrance, so if you aren't looking for it, it's easy to ignore. And there are signs, but they aren't exactly flashy or calling attention to themselves.

Certainly there are some that are tucked away more than others (its far worst at Disneyland) - but the signs are still there. Let's be honest... the idea of fastpass is above every attraction that uses it.. and there is a CM stationed basically right under that sign. All the opportunity in the world is there... I think Disney does their part in terms of awareness and making it simple. I mean look at the map from 2011... it breaks FP down into three easy steps.
magic-kingdom-guidemap-feb-2011-02.jpg

IMO - more than enough guidance for folks.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Who said anything about being scared.

I'm just not interested in an entertainment company gathering data on me, my spending habits, preferences (Female. Over 24. Dark sense of humor), and targeting me based on what I do in a theme park. Its just unacceptable to me. I have no desire to be marketed to by ANYONE.

Eh. Makes a nice little sound byte, but Disney has been doing this to you for years.

You are a smart guy, you know this.

The only difference now is the bracelet - which, as I'm sure you also know, you do not have to use.

So again, I don't see what all the paranoia is about. The posting I replied to was about your presumptions about the Magic Band and Disney Inifnity - which, as I said, is already tied to your Disney.com account so it's not giving them any more data than they already have.

You'll have to forgive me, but yes, it comes across as fear. Like, you are afraid that they will market too well to you and you will fall for it? It's pretty confounding to be honest - because this is nothing whatsoever new for Disney. It's just giving them better, more unified data collection. And it's more accurate - which to be honest, since they are going to be doing so anyway, I'd rather them making decisions with accurate information than assumptions based on various scattered data sources. And since Disney is going to market to me anyway, to be perfectly honest I'd rather them send me stuff that I'd actually be interested in.

Basically, though - it's all in each persons own court. If you don't want to be tracked by Disney, you can bring a different, unmarked vehicle every time you go (better yet, take a bus from off-site), stay off-property, only buy single day tickets, and only with cash, wear a hoodie hood-up to avoid as many security cameras as possible, use nothing but cash when there (but be careful you throw your lunch trash out across several different trash cans so they can't extract your DNA as reliably from the remnants - actually, better to just pack-in your lunch so you don't run the risk of being drugged or otherwise marked/impaired if they target you).

This is so low on the privacy scale it's not even funny - if you have written a check in the last 5-10 years, you have done far, far more harm to your personal privacy than any little doodad at a theme park will gather for you. Heck, a check not only has enough data to easily steal identity, it has your signature, too! People hand them over like they are nothing, yet raise holy heck over a bracelet that essentially just replicates the KTTW card people already carried.

People are going to get all huffy about whatever they want, I get that - but in this case, it's like people freaking out if someone walks down a busy the street smoking a cigarette and ignoring the fact that the 30 running gas powered vehicles within a few 100 feet of them spewing out far more harmful chemicals by the bucketful in your face. But it's smoking that is killing everyone if they get a single whiff when you walk by.

In the end, though, Disney has been entirely up front about what they are doing with the data collected (they have a rather comprehensive website to explain it) and you either trust them, or you don't. And in any case, all of this is completely optional - that is, anything more than they always have done. Don't want to get "tracked" - don't get a bracelet. Totally simple.


EDIT: From another thread, an exact example of what I am talking about:

The receivers are very similar in nature to the receivers found around the state of Florida being used for our SunPass system. Most people think that their SunPass transmitters in their cars are only being read when they go through a tollbooth on the highway. In reality, SunPass transmitters are being used in many major cities within the state to track traffic patterns.


Gotta tell ya, I see much more concern in that than Disney knowing what path I take from Tomorrowland to Frontierland...
 
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marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
because for the billionth time... the billion isn't just for FP+. From queue improvements (HM, Pooh, BTMRR, etc) to websites... and a million other things inbetween.
The "queue improvements" hark back to FP+ early planning. Give the standbys more to do whilst they wait. Funny how they spent money on rear projectors for the Space Mountain queue but neglected to install new visuals in the actual ride. And that was four years ago.
 
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